Is the PG position really worth a max contract?

Malta

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Now who else wanna fukk with Hollywood Court?
That team doesn't beat the Spurs or Thunder. Not enough spacing offensively and the defensive principles that allows Miami to flourish don't work with that roster.

He didn't say they'd win the title, just that they'd be better.

Also their principles are predicated on having a dude that can guard 1 through 4, you can't forget that the Cavs were the best defensive team in the league with him and an undersized backcourt.
 

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Have you all watched the Heat the last two years? We aren't talking 08 Wade and Bosh here? You really think CP3 is gonna lead his team to a title with Wade failing to reach 20 for the majority of the playoffs and Bosh avg. fewer rebounds than him? :usure: The Pacers beat them pretty soundly with CP3 in Bron's spot. Conversely Bron and Blake would create all kinds of matchup issues that CP3 and Blake just can't.

Who said Wade and Bosh? We said guys of equivalent talent but whose skill-sets compliment CP3.


He didn't say they'd win the title, just that they'd be better.

Also their principles are predicated on having a dude that can guard 1 through 4, you can't forget that the Cavs were the best defensive team in the league with him with an undersized backcourt.

That team doesn't beat Memphis. Unless Deandre Jordan get's traded then you're not using Lebron's versatility on defense. Equally important is the disruptive hands and help defense of guys like Chalmers and Wade that allow the Heat to feast in transition. The intelligence of Miami roleplayers understanding help defense and rotating that I know most of the Clippers roster can't grasp...that isn't being replicated in LA.
 

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He didn't say they'd win the title, just that they'd be better.

Also their principles are predicated on having a dude that can guard 1 through 4, you can't forget that the Cavs were the best defensive team in the league with him and an undersized backcourt.

Exactly. A whole lot of room between getting bounced in the 1st round and winning the title. :heh:
 

Malta

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Now who else wanna fukk with Hollywood Court?
Who said Wade and Bosh? We said guys of equivalent talent but whose skill-sets compliment CP3.




Unless Deandre Jordan get's traded then you're not using Lebron's versatility on defense. Equally important, is the disruptive hands and help defense of guys like Chalmers and Wade that allow the Heat to feast in transition...that isn't being replicated in LA.


Fam, he had the corpse of Shaq & JJ Hickson as his frontcourt at one point, with Mo Williams and Anthony Parker as his guards, and they were 7th in the league defensively. The year before that Zydrunas was his 5, with Varejao/Ben Wallace splitting time at the 4 and Mo Williams/Delonte West in the backcourt......

The Clippers are currently 8th in the NBA defensively with Jared Dudley at the 3, you drop CP3 from that team and replace Dudley with Bron they get better defensively even if it meant starting Collison at the 1. You're underselling his impact on team defense.
 

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So we're asking whether the best player in the league and a guy who's top 10 all-time would improve a team if he swapped places? :comeon:
 

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Who said Wade and Bosh? We said guys of equivalent talent but whose skill-sets compliment CP3.

You do realize that Wade and Bron are pretty much the same player right? Their skill-sets over lap. You can't put CP3 with a duplicate of himself because unlike Lebron and other bigger players he can't step up in other areas.
 

Poitier

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Fam, he had the corpse of Shaq & JJ Hickson as his frontcourt at one point, with Mo Williams and Anthony Parker as his guards, and they were 7th in the league defensively. The year before that Zydrunas was his 5, with Varejao/Ben Wallace splitting time at the 4 and Mo Williams/Delonte West in the backcourt......

The Clippers are currently 8th in the NBA defensively with Jared Dudley at the 3, you drop CP3 from that team and replace Dudley with Bron they get better defensively even if it meant starting Collison at the 1. You're underselling his impact on team defense.

I'm not sure what your'e trying to convey? I didn't say that the Clippers wouldn't be good defensively or better, just that it wouldn't be Miami Heat good or versatile and he would get bounced out of the playoffs early on in the Western Conference.

You do realize that Wade and Bron are pretty much the same player right? Their skill-sets over lap. You can't put CP3 with a duplicate of himself because unlike Lebron and other bigger players he can't step up in other areas.

Which has nothing to do with what i said
 

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That team doesn't beat the Spurs or Thunder. Not enough spacing offensively and the defensive principles that allows Miami to flourish don't work with that roster.

Doc Rivers > Scott Brooks so its not even a discussion that they'd get pass the Thunder to me. Lebron would change everything for that team on both ends of the court. You selling a 4 time MVP short right now
 

Poitier

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Doc Rivers > Scott Brooks so its not even a discussion that they'd get pass the Thunder to me. Lebron would change everything for that team on both ends of the court. You selling a 4 time MVP short right now

Nope, they don't have the players outside of Lebron to capitalize on the Thunder's heavy iso ball. I think Lebron is one of a small group of non-Bigmen who are legitimate defensive anchors, I'm the last person to sell him short.

So you didn't say this?

shyt was totally based on what you said. :laff:

How does that have anything to do with the redundancy of some of Lebron and Wade's skillsets? Sounds like an excuse to me.
 

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How does that have anything to do with the redundancy of some of Lebron and Wade's skillsets? Sounds like an excuse to me.

Because if they are redundant then they don't compliment each other. :wtf: :dwillhuh: :heh: :snoop: You are :troll:ing me aren't you? :damn: Got me again :sadcam:
 

Poitier

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Because if they are redundant then they don't compliment each other. :wtf: :dwillhuh: :heh: :snoop: You are :troll:ing me aren't you? :damn: Got me again :sadcam:

Dumb logic. Outside of traditional bigmen, top 10 players are going to have overlapping skill-sets regardless.
 

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Dumb logic. Outside of traditional bigmen, top 10 players are going to have overlapping skill-sets regardless.

Overlapping is one thing. Wade and Bron were damn near the exact same player when they came together. No matter how you try to spin it, they are far from complimentary.
 
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Bynum isn't getting anymore max deals, now is he? Curry even with the shoddy ankles is going to demand a max contract the next go around and he will probably get it. I love Curry's game, but no way I'd give him a max contract either :manny:
That wasn't the point - I said at position value:

If Bynum had proven to have equal value to Curry on the market amidst all his chronic knee issues, would he be worth the max right now? You mentioned that i'f a PG loses a step, he doesn't have size to fall back on or be a defensive anchor, and that a big man is always going to be a big man no matter what happens to his wheels' - albeit he would probably be playing better than he is now, if beforehand he proved to be 'worth the max'', but I don't see any difference between the two.

Bynum can no longer effectively use his size (basically no defense and can no longer use his body to get adequate post position)
Bynum can't transition into any other position

He's in the same boat as Curry is he not? Case-by-case aren't you running the same risk at all positions? What's the difference between a 6'5 2-guard and a 6'3 PG who can score at will, with the exact same injury issues?
This is a ridiculous question breh since hindsight is 20/20, you can point to nearly any championship team and say "replace X with Y". You could say the Heat would have won a title last year with Harden at the two with how limited Wade was in the playoffs. This is like asking if the Pacers would be contenders with Melo instead of Paul George, you can't just look at good/title teams after the fact and say "Well drop them on there instead of"....how about building around a PG and getting those results to begin with.
That's my point - lemme ask you this:

What PGs over the past decade do you believe were worth (or close to it) the max - and what were their current rosters during that time? And how were they any different to the rosters built around 'franchise' 2s, 3s, 4s or 5s that didn't have any success?

We've never had an adequate enough sample size of teams building around PGs, to dismiss this idea that they aren't worth the max. Which brings me onto my next point - if the PG doesn't have a SG skill set or high-end athleticism, I don't believe they're worth the max (strictly in today's game) - I simply don't believe you can build around them .

Rose, Westbrook, Kyrie, Wall, Curry are the type of point guards I believe are worth the max. Not necessarily them per say, but that proven type.

Nevermind the fact that you drop Rose/Wall/Paul onto the Spurs in 06-07 and it's still Duncan that the team is built around, not them. Also, Parker wasn't worth a max contract when he signed his extension in 2004, he wasn't even an all-star at the point and was laying eggs in the playoffs, shot 38% against Gary Payton/Derek Fisher that very same summer.

He wasn't in 04, but his play throughout 06-08 (and probably beyond) warranted that sort of money. in conjunction with what other players were getting at the time:

Jermaine - $18m
Kidd - $18m
Webber - $17m
Iverson - $17m
Marbury - $17m

There's no reason to suggest he wasn't worth equal or near those type of salaries.

The point is that making a PG your franchise player and building around them is a losing proposition backed up by decades worth of history. Instead of using a time machine to travel backwards and placing a better player than Parker in his place, build a title team around a PG that would win a title.

That's the problem, we really haven't.

If we were to take the ratio of teams who had PGs on max salaries who reached contention - either winning or coming close (Zeke, Stockton, Nash) and the PGs who didn't, the gap in the relationship is no bigger than all teams that have failed building around a SG, SF, PF, C. To go even further, for 90+% of title teams, there was always a Robin to every Batman. Where are all these examples of teams that built around their PG that also had a sidekick?

This is why building around a player, basically has nothing to do with the actual position (not taking away from the balance of a big man and backcourt/wing duo), it just so happens that the majority of great players over the last 20-30 years have been in the positions other than the PG. What you also failed to realise is that, because more and more teams are starting to build around their point guard (or giving them the max), the probability of one putting the right roster around their PG is higher than ever.

It's only logical that one of these teams will be one hit away. Word to Beans.
 

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It's an interesting argument but there are a lot of factors to what goes into winning a title... If we go back to the Heat/Mavs series, LeBron is the clear best player on the court but he struggled at times, Wade tried to pick up the slack but they fell short.. Jason Terry who is far from a dominant guard had some huge games in the playoffs. Without his contribution Dallas and Dirk are not winning the title but who would have guessed that Jet would ever make the difference?

If you are a GM putting a team together.. a guy like Terry isn't someone you look at and say "We have to
have HIM!", he's viewed as a dime a dozen guard.. but there he was making huge shots all through the playoffs and without him they probably don't win.

LeBron was not the best player on the court that year
 
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