DJ Kool Herc did NOT create "Hip Hop." There are several elements of Hip Hop culture that DJ Kool Herc didn't create. The Four elements of Hip Hip culture is Deejaying, MCing, B-Boying, and Graffiti. DJ Kool Herc only contributed to the Deejaying aspect of Hip Hop culture. DJ Kool Herc coined the term "B-Boy" & "B-Boy" but Dj Kool Herc didn't create breakdancing. Every hip hop legend contributed to the development of Hip Hop music. To say that DJ Kool Herc created "Hip Hop" by himself is unfair to other hip hop pioneers who played a major role in creating this musical art form. Hip Hop is a collective thing. So...I disagree with people when they say DJ Kool Herc created 'Hip Hop."
Is it widely known that Hip Hop/Rap was born in Jamaica?
- Thread starter WaveGang
- Start date
DabbinSauce
Banned
Lol at a jamaican creating American rap music
Rap music descends from older forms of African American music point blank period, Rap music don't sound shyt like reggae, it sounds like soul, funk, jazz, blues, and disco which are all AA and all of those genres had elements of rapping and hip hop attitude
jamaicans aint no different from cacs and i hate the fact that latinos think they created the genre of Freestyle music, like that 80s skating rink lisa lisa music, even italians claim freestyle music as their culture
if you look at the Freestyle genre wiki page they try their best not to mention Afrika Bambaata and Shannon as the forefather of Freestyle and don't even name it as AA culture, i wonder what it is about AA music that makes outsiders think they can claim our shyt
shyt bothers the fukk outta me the way people try to write us out of our own history
Freestyle music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rap music descends from older forms of African American music point blank period, Rap music don't sound shyt like reggae, it sounds like soul, funk, jazz, blues, and disco which are all AA and all of those genres had elements of rapping and hip hop attitude
jamaicans aint no different from cacs and i hate the fact that latinos think they created the genre of Freestyle music, like that 80s skating rink lisa lisa music, even italians claim freestyle music as their culture
if you look at the Freestyle genre wiki page they try their best not to mention Afrika Bambaata and Shannon as the forefather of Freestyle and don't even name it as AA culture, i wonder what it is about AA music that makes outsiders think they can claim our shytshyt bothers the fukk outta me the way people try to write us out of our own history
Freestyle music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DabbinSauce
Banned
There is no such thing as "black culture" the word black is too inclusive, that is the problem, we are African Americans the same way that jamaicans are jamaicans fukk that black shyt, we need to stick to our own and run the outsiders away
Exactly!!! Hip Hop used a selection of classic soul, funk, rock, and jazz records from the 60s and 70s to create their sound.Lol at a jamaican creating American rap music
Rap music descends from older forms of African American music point blank period, Rap music don't sound shyt like reggae, it sounds like soul, funk, jazz, blues, and disco which are all AA and all of those genres had elements of rapping and hip hop attitude
jamaicans aint no different from cacs and i hate the fact that latinos think they created the genre of Freestyle music, like that 80s skating rink lisa lisa music, even italians claim freestyle music as their culture
shyt bothers the fukk outta me the way people try to write us out of our own history
Freestyle music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
armandobsegura
Rookie
Just created an account to post this:
Hip hop "invented" in Jamaica? NO. Jamaica being an essential influence that is massively downplayed and ignored? YES.
Music is not like mathematics... it's a cultural phenomenon where influences flow across styles. Definitions of style and influences are open to subjective interpretation, even by experts, historians and artists themselves.
My view is that American music influenced Jamaican music a lot. In return, Jamaicans developed their own "ting" and created their own styles from it (Jamaican R&B, ska, rocksteady, reggae, dancehall...). Those styles came back to USA though emigration and helped create, develop and popularise hip hop music.
What's the origin of rap? it will be stupid to reduce it to a few sources. From the record of the white dude speaking over music in 1929 to Jamaican toasters in the 50's to jive talking to James Brown... all of them have something to do in one way or another.
What about Jamaica? the influence is undeniable.
Count Machuki was already toasting in the 50's (unfortunately there's no recorded evidence).
Prince Buster has recordings from 1964 in which he raps to syncopated beats similarly to what we understand to rap today (00:30 onwards)
Here's Count Machuki and Sir Lord Comic, two of the first toasters, performing live. Two guys and a mic ... the connection with hip hop is evident:
There's other influences of Jamaicans in hip hop such as with beatboxing, often seen in early ska records (1965):
Jamaicans were discriminated in USA and that's why Kool Herc denied at times that toasting have anything to do with hip hop. But there were plenty of times where he recognised Jamaica was big in his work:
In an interview in 1989 with Davey D, DJ Kool Herc says "Hip hop, the whole chemistry of that came from Jamaica"
So yeah... Jamaica has a great deal of influence in hip hop but that's not to say Jamaicans invented it. No music style was ever invented by someone... that "someone" have listened to previous artists and made his own interpretation of a style.
As for people saying jamaicans just listened to american hip hop and imitated it... that's not true. They definitely played a role in creating, developing and popularising the style.
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Just forget it, because I am going to repeat myself for the 500th time. After this no more, please.
The first video was the from the 70's. If they were rapping in the 70's, where are the people who say they were influenced by them in early hip hop, not the mid 1980's hip hop? Never heard Dj Hollywood say this. Never heard Lovebug starksi say this. Even if I got to the rappers who came after them like cold crush bros., or grandmaster flash & furious five, none of them said they were influenced by the guys yall keep pushing. What yall are doing is trying to make connections from the similarities, but that isn't how things happened. We know this because the people who were around are still alive to tell you, so why do yall keep ignoring them, only to tell the story with what feels good to you? I would be mad as hell if people try to tell my story differently from me, because they don't like the way my narrative sounds
The second video was from 1964, which was when JAMES BROWN was the man, and it was a ska record, which means i'm sure his style was influenced by a mixture of that 50's style. Somewhere i will probably find someone "toasting" in some american 1950's record. It's like yall keep forgetting how big, and influential James Brown, and other black american musicians were to black music all over the world.
As far as beatboxing, that is another reach. I have yet to hear beatboxers from back in the day say a record from 1965 influenced them to beatbox. Again, just because you found something that was done in the past, it doesn't mean it was the cause of future renditions of it. I don't see why yall cant get this important fact.
As far as Kool herc, that sounds nice, but he was just on Combat Jack in 2014, and he still never made that statement you made. And again, he didn't do any toasting. Did you read this thread? This was explained already!
Now, please just forget it. Unless some actual proof of influence can be shown from the people who were actually there!
The first video was the from the 70's. If they were rapping in the 70's, where are the people who say they were influenced by them in early hip hop, not the mid 1980's hip hop? Never heard Dj Hollywood say this. Never heard Lovebug starksi say this. Even if I got to the rappers who came after them like cold crush bros., or grandmaster flash & furious five, none of them said they were influenced by the guys yall keep pushing. What yall are doing is trying to make connections from the similarities, but that isn't how things happened. We know this because the people who were around are still alive to tell you, so why do yall keep ignoring them, only to tell the story with what feels good to you? I would be mad as hell if people try to tell my story differently from me, because they don't like the way my narrative sounds
The second video was from 1964, which was when JAMES BROWN was the man, and it was a ska record, which means i'm sure his style was influenced by a mixture of that 50's style. Somewhere i will probably find someone "toasting" in some american 1950's record. It's like yall keep forgetting how big, and influential James Brown, and other black american musicians were to black music all over the world.
As far as beatboxing, that is another reach. I have yet to hear beatboxers from back in the day say a record from 1965 influenced them to beatbox. Again, just because you found something that was done in the past, it doesn't mean it was the cause of future renditions of it. I don't see why yall cant get this important fact.
As far as Kool herc, that sounds nice, but he was just on Combat Jack in 2014, and he still never made that statement you made. And again, he didn't do any toasting. Did you read this thread? This was explained already!
Now, please just forget it. Unless some actual proof of influence can be shown from the people who were actually there!
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I've been to all the places you named.
Nothing about going to those place makes you believe that the culture is different. And 100% original to New York. Please expand.
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
I don't hear any rapping in there
He was straight talking not really flowing to the beat
The connection toasting has with hiphop is the same connection rapping has with hiphop, Afram oral/verbal traditions
There's other influences of Jamaicans in hip hop such as with beatboxing, often seen in early ska records (1965):
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1930's
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1930's
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IllmaticDelta
Veteran
beatboxing was a continuation of the the vocal sounds imitating instruments that were first in jazz vocals and then doo wop
later doowop
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
beatboxings roots
IllmaticDelta
Veteran
I posted this in another thread but Im going to repost in here. This should help you better understand the origins of what jamaicans call "toasting" and the USA didn't outside influences to develop "rapping". Afram's ARE THE ROOTS of American Rap and Jamaican Toasting!
I posted this in another thread but Im going to repost in here. This should help you better understand the origins of what jamaicans call "toasting" and the USA didn't outside influences to develop "rapping". Afram's ARE THE ROOTS of American Rap and Jamaican Toasting!
Hip To The Jive And Stay Alive: An interview with Count Matchuki
MG: The jive talk that you did – did it just come out of you?
CM: No. To be honest, what gave me that idea, I was walking late one night about a quarter to three somewhere in Denham
Town. And I hear this guy on the radio, some American guy advertising Royal Crown hairdressing. (affecting an American accent) “You see, you’re drying up with this one Johnny , try Royal Crown. When you’re downtown you’re the smartest guy in town when you use Royal Crown and Royal Crown makes you the smartest guy in town.” That deliverance! This guy sound like a machine! A tongue twister! I heard that in 1949 on one of them States stations that was really strong. I hear this guy sing out pon the radio and I just like the sound and I say to myself I think I can do better. I would like to play some recordings and just jive talk like this guy
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Jive Talking and Toasting
“The Jives of Dr. Hepcat” by KVET-AM DJ Albert Lavada Durst, published in 1953.
I was reading Beth Lesser’s amazing Rub-a-Dub Style: The Roots of Modern Dancehall, which is available for free download here, and I found a quotation from Clive Chin that set me off on a wild goose chase through the roots of toasting. I have long had a fascination with the connection between toasting and hip hop and have written about that in this blog before, and presented on it at conference after I had the pleasure of interviewing DJ Kool Herc last year, but I hadn’t thoroughly ventured back to jive–until Beth Lesser.
Clive Chin, writes Lesser, remembers toaster Count Matchuki carrying around a book. “There was one he said he bought out of Beverly’s [record shop] back in the ‘60s. The book was called Jives and it had sort of slangs, slurs in it and he was reading it, looking it over, and he found that it would be something that he could explore and study, so he took that book and it helped him.” Lesser writes that this book of jive may have been a boo, written in 1953, The Jives of Dr. Hepcat, which was published by Albert Lavada Durst, a DJ on KVET-AM in Austin, Texas. This version (read the entire copy here) featured definitions for words and phrases commonly used by jive talking DJs like “threads,” which are clothes; “pad,” for house or apartment; “flip your lid,” for losing one’s balance mentally; and “chill,” to hold up or stop. Durst wrote in the introduction to his book, which sold for 50 cents, “In spinning a platter of some very popular band leader, I would come on something like this: ‘Jackson, here’s that man again, cool, calm, and a solid wig, he is laying a frantic scream that will strictly pad your skull, fall in and dig the happenings.’ Which is to say, the orchestra leader is a real classy singer and has a voice that most people would like. For instance, there was a jam session of topnotch musicians and everything was jumping and you would like to explain it to a hepster. These are the terms to use. ‘Gator take a knock down to those blow tops, who are upping some real crazy riffs and dropping them on a mellow kick and chappie the way they pull their lay hips our ship that they are from the land of razz ma tazz.’
Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary: Language of Jive,” 1944 version.
I decided to search further and found there was another popular book of jive written before Dr. Hepcat, although it is likely that Matchuki obtained Durst’s version given the era and the content. But Cab Calloway had his own publication of jive called “Cab Calloway’s Hepster Dictionary: Language of Jive” which was first published in 1939 and then revised to add more words in a 1944 printing. Calloway was the original emcee, the master of ceremonies, the hepcat, who understood jive and brought it to those who wanted to become part of this culture. As frequent band leader at the Cotton Club in front of Duke Ellington’s band during performances that were broadcast all over the continent, and as star in a number of feature films, Calloway brought the language of Harlem, jive, to audiences uneducated in the dialect of the black musicians. He established jive as a form of discourse.
Interior of Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary”
Some of the words in these dictionaries, and certainly the word “jive” itself, appear in the toasts of Count Matchuki, Lord Comic, and King Stitt. The style is similar as well, scatting over the music, punctuating the rhythm with verbal percussion, and boasting. Next week I will blog about the jive-talking American DJs like Vernon Winslow, Tommy Smalls, and Douglas Henderson, who influenced the Jamaican toasters since these similarities are fascinating as well.
Here is some additional information from Beth Lesser:
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IllmaticDelta
Veteran
Jive Talking and Toasting part two
Jive Talking and Toasting part two - Foundation SKA
Last week I wrote about the connection between toasting and jive talking from Cab Calloway and Albert Lavada Hurst, which writer and historian Beth Lesser brought my attention to through her work. This week I continue this connection between the jive talking DJs in America and toasters like Count Matchuki, Sir Lord Comic, and King Stitt and I focus on a few of the key DJs during the 1950s.
Dr. Daddy O
One of these jive-talking DJs was Vernon Winslow who broadcast his show, “Jam, Jive, ‘n’ Gumbo,” from New Orleans with his character, “Dr. Daddy O,” and partner DJ Duke Thiele who portrayed the character of “Poppa Stoppa.” Winslow explains, “Poppa Stoppa was the name I came up with. It came from the rhyme and rap that folks in the street were using in New Orleans. Poppa Stoppa’s language was for insiders.”
Vernon Winslow, also known as Dr. Daddy O, was the first African-American disc jockey.
Tommy Smalls was a DJ in New York known as “Dr. Jive,” though he got his start in Savannah, Georgia. His catch phrase was, “Sit back and relax and enjoy the wax. From three-oh-five to five-three-oh, it’s the Dr. Jive show.” He was known as the “Mayor of Harlem” and unfortunately, in 1960 he was one of the DJs arrested, along with Alan Freed, in the payola scandal.
Tommy Smalls plants a kiss on Dinah Washington.
Dr. Jive
And Douglas Henderson, known as “Jocko” broadcast from a number of cities with his show, “Rocket Ship.” Henderson was also known as the “Ace from Outta Space.”Author Bill Brewster writes of Henderson: “Using a rocket ship blast-off to open proceedings, and introducing records with more rocket engines and ‘Higher, higher, higher…’ Jocko conducted his whole show as if he was a good-rocking rhythmonaut. ‘Great gugga mugga shooga booga’ he’d exclaim, along with plenty of ‘Daddios.’ ‘From way up here in the stratosphere, we gonna holler mighty loud and clear ee-tiddy-o and a bo, and I’m back on the scene with the record machine, saying oo-pappa-do and how do you do?”
The Ace from Outta Space, Douglas Henderson
Notice any similarity between the jive talking of these DJs and the toasts of Lord Comic and Count Matchuki? Some of Matchuki’s toasts have the same language as the jive of these DJs. Matchuki’s toast include “When I dig, I dig for mommy, I dig for daddy, I dig for everybody,” and “It’s you I love and not another, you may change but I will never,” as well as, “If you dig my jive / you’re cool and very much alive / Everybody all round town / Matchuki’s the reason why I shake it down / When it comes to jive / You can’t whip him with no stick.”
Count Matchuki, born Winston Cooper in 1934, is widely considered the first toaster. He was raised in a family that had more money than others so he grew up with two gramophones in the home and was exposed to swing, jazz, bebop, and rhythm & blues. He says that he got the idea to begin toasting over records after hearing American radio. He told this to Mark Gorney and Michael Turner as they recount in a 1996 issue of Beat Magazine. “I was walking late one night about a quarter to three. Somewhere in Denham Town. And I hear this guy on the radio, some American guy advertising Royal Crown Hair Dressing. ‘You see you’re drying up with this one, Johnny, try Royal Crown. When you’re downtown you’re the smartest guy in town, when you use Royal Crown and Royal Crown make you the smartest guy in town.’ That deliverance! This guy sound like a machine! A tongue-twister! I heard that in 1949. On one of them States stations that was really strong. I hear this guy sing out ‘pon the radio and I just like the sound. And I say, I think I can do better. I’d like to play some recordings and just jive talk like this guy.”
Count Matchuki
Sir Lord Comic, whose real name was Percival Wauchope, began as a dancer, a “legs man.” He began toasting for Admiral Deans’ sound system on Maxwell Avenue in 1959 and his first song was a Len Hope tune called “Hop, Skip, and Jump.” In Howard Johnson and Jim Pines’ book, Reggae: Deep Roots Music, Sir Lord Comic recalls, “When the tune started into about the fourth groove I says, ‘Breaks!’ and when I say ‘Breaks’ I have all eyes at the amplifier, y’know. And I says, ‘You love the life you live, you live the life you love. This is Lord Comic.’ The night was exciting, very exciting” (Johnson Pines 72). Lord Comic’s first toast, he says, was, “Now we’ll give you the scene, you got to be real keen. And me no jelly bean. Sir Lord Comic answer his spinning wheel appeal, from his record machine. Stick around, be no clown. See what the boss is puttin’ down.”
Sir Lord Comic
One article in the Daily Gleaner on May 1, 1964 advertised Sir Lord Comic’s performance at the Glass Bucket Club, an upscale establishment. “Sir Lord Comic will be at the controls with his authentic sound system calls,” it stated. Some of his recorded songs include “Ska-ing West,” “The Great Wuga Wuga,” “Rhythm Rebellion,” “Jack of My Trade,” and “Four Seasons of the Year,” among a few others. Sir Lord Comic’s “The Great Wuga Wuga” was likely inspired by the jive talk of Douglas “Jocko” Henderson who spoke of the “great gugga mugga.” Additionally, Henderson’s show, “Rocket Ship,” became a song recorded by the Skatalites with Sir Lord Comic toasting over the instrumentals, calling out the title of the song to begin the instrumentals and continuing with his percussive techniques.
Jive Talking and Toasting part two - Foundation SKA
Edit: That fast ass beat
That's where them crackas got the drum patterns they used in 80s and 90s Hardcore Punk Rock from. That's that sanctified bounce shyt
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