I'm sorry bruh. I can't trust class-first marxists, even black ones. This is insane.

[Brer Dog]

No group of people have ever hated, enslaved, or killed another group they've considered their equals in the history of humanity.

Not true. For example: The Sino-Japanese Wars. Even with all the fukked up shyt they were doing, the Japanese still held great admiration for the Chinese and saw them as somewhat of a "father civilization."

 

[Meta Reign]

Arbeit macht frei, amirite?

Ask ya man Zelensky and his boys. He seems to know a lot about that.

On a serious note. . . Capitalism does not free anyone of work obviously. Work will always exist. . . Capitalism decentralizes power systems, which by default frees people from authoritarians on a mass scale. Authoritarians hate decentralized anything.

 

[Hood Critic]

Not true. For example: The Sino-Japanese Wars. Even with all the fukked up shyt they were doing, the Japanese still held great admiration for the Chinese and saw them as somewhat of a "father civilization."

Recognizing them as an older civilization doesn't negate what I said. Westerners marvel at ancient Egypt, a civilization older and incredibly influential on the civilizations they do hold in high regard (Greek, Roman), yet have systematically attempted to white wash its history or fail to recognize its achievements prior to external rule.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

This bit from The New Jim Crow addresses both Bacon's Rebellion and why they made an economic decision to import Africans.


"Initially, blacks brought to this country were not all enslaved; many were treated as indentured servants. As plantation farming expanded, particularly tobacco and cotton farming, demand increased greatly for both labor and land...

The growing demand for labor on plantations was met through slavery. American Indians were considered unsuitable as slaves, largely because native tribes were clearly in a position to fight back. The fear of raids by Indian tribes led plantation owners to grasp for an alternative source of free labor. European immigrants were also deemed poor candidates for slavery, not because of their race, but rather because they were in short supply and enslavement would, quite naturally, interfere with voluntary immigration to the new colonies. Plantation owners thus viewed Africans, who were relatively powerless, as the ideal slaves. The systematic enslavement of Africans, and the rearing of their children under bondage, emerged with all deliberate speed—quickened by events such as Bacon’s Rebellion.

In an effort to protect their superior status and economic position, the planters shifted their strategy for maintaining dominance. They abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. Instead of importing English-speaking slaves from the West Indies, who were more likely to be familiar with European language and culture, many more slaves were shipped directly from Africa. These slaves would be far easier to control and far less likely to form alliances with poor whites.

Fearful that such measures might not be sufficient to protect their interests, the planter class took an additional precautionary step, a step that would later come to be known as a “racial bribe.” Deliberately and strategically, the planter class extended special privileges to poor whites in an effort to drive a wedge between them and black slaves."

It was also an economic and power dynamic decision to divide the public racially.

none of this is new to me and none of it refutes that you cannot uncouple white supremacy and racism of slavery from the economics. as i've said, the institution of slavery is built on the premise that there are people unequal to you who do not deserve to be treated with a standard level of decency. yes, you derive economic benefit from this institution, but you have to buy into inequality first to reap economic rewards. this is especially so in US slavery. anyone who tries to frame an argument around capitalism being the sole or outsized evil of slavery is

 

[Brer Dog]

Recognizing them as an older civilization doesn't negate what I said.

That's not what I meant by "Father civilization." The Chinese (because of Tang Dynasty to be specific) were seen as being above them (sort of like a big brother) because of their influence in the continent and on their culture directly.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

none of this is new to me and none of it refutes that you cannot uncouple white supremacy and racism of slavery from the economics. as i've said, the institution of slavery is built on the premise that there are people unequal to you who do not deserve to be treated with a standard level of decency. yes, you derive economic benefit from this institution, but you have to buy into inequality first to reap economic rewards. this is especially so in US slavery. anyone who tries to frame an argument around capitalism being the sole or outsized evil of slavery is

Again? People are ignoring the influence of the religious crusades and antisemitism on Europe that lead to so much investment in the project of organized racism.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

No group of people have ever hated, enslaved, or killed another group they've considered their equals in the history of humanity.

What I love about what even Gerald Horne says when he calls out the white left is that the biggest example of class collaboration was every European American becoming “white” when they migrated to North America and leaving behind their prior identities.

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

This bit from The New Jim Crow addresses both Bacon's Rebellion and why they made an economic decision to import Africans.


"Initially, blacks brought to this country were not all enslaved; many were treated as indentured servants. As plantation farming expanded, particularly tobacco and cotton farming, demand increased greatly for both labor and land...

The growing demand for labor on plantations was met through slavery. American Indians were considered unsuitable as slaves, largely because native tribes were clearly in a position to fight back. The fear of raids by Indian tribes led plantation owners to grasp for an alternative source of free labor. European immigrants were also deemed poor candidates for slavery, not because of their race, but rather because they were in short supply and enslavement would, quite naturally, interfere with voluntary immigration to the new colonies. Plantation owners thus viewed Africans, who were relatively powerless, as the ideal slaves. The systematic enslavement of Africans, and the rearing of their children under bondage, emerged with all deliberate speed—quickened by events such as Bacon’s Rebellion.

In an effort to protect their superior status and economic position, the planters shifted their strategy for maintaining dominance. They abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. Instead of importing English-speaking slaves from the West Indies, who were more likely to be familiar with European language and culture, many more slaves were shipped directly from Africa. These slaves would be far easier to control and far less likely to form alliances with poor whites.

Fearful that such measures might not be sufficient to protect their interests, the planter class took an additional precautionary step, a step that would later come to be known as a “racial bribe.” Deliberately and strategically, the planter class extended special privileges to poor whites in an effort to drive a wedge between them and black slaves."

It was also an economic and power dynamic decision to divide the public racially.

My problem with this is that it has to do so much heavy lifting to make the economic argument not to turn off the white left. We can’t even have this talk without them trying to sell books so they have to skirt around this shyt.

they can’t explain why poor whites keep doing this…oh it’s capitalism. So what about wealthy whites? Oh capitalism too? Oh so racism is doing none of this, huh?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

 

[88m3]

Ask ya man Zelensky and his boys. He seems to know a lot about that.

On a serious note. . . Capitalism does not free anyone of work obviously. Work will always exist. . . Capitalism decentralizes power systems, which by default frees people from authoritarians on a mass scale. Authoritarians hate decentralized anything.

I don't think topic has anything to do with Zelensky



you just admitted it ties you to your job...




decentralizes power systems for who?


As an employee you're stuck in a job, location, debt, and more...

Employers are what again?

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

 

[☑︎#VoteDemocrat]

I was so ahead of the curve on calling this shyt out man.

 

[OfTheCross]

none of this is new to me and none of it refutes that you cannot uncouple white supremacy and racism of slavery from the economics. as i've said, the institution of slavery is built on the premise that there are people unequal to you who do not deserve to be treated with a standard level of decency. yes, you derive economic benefit from this institution, but you have to buy into inequality first to reap economic rewards. this is especially so in US slavery. anyone who tries to frame an argument around capitalism being the sole or outsized evil of slavery is

In any example of Slavery in the history of the world we can agree that racism/ethnic supremacy played a role.

It doesn't matter if it was Europeans doing it to Europeans, Arabs to Africans, Africans to Africans, whoever to the Jews, or Europeans to Africans. They all that they were superior to those they held as slaves.

But we're talking about African chattel slavery to the US here. There's reasons why Indians and Europeans weren't enslaved in the same way, and those reasons are economic. It's not because they didn't try...

 

[Satsui no Hadou]

Marx himself was racist against black people, even if he was against literal slavery. A lot of them hated black people. Hell, he was anti-jewish!

This is what these class reductionists lose me at.

They want to decry one form of reductionism while hammering another form.

Its like if they can't center white perspectives on this, then they have to invalidate everything else that might have happened around the world.

They don't know how to handle black socialists who disagreed with white socialists in the early 20th century for exposing their double dealings with white supremacy.

This shyt is just blowing my mind.

well, I’m not going to justify Marx’s beliefs on race or anything. He’s not a larger than life figure, he is not some infallible philosopher. Like I said, marx received the smack down from stirner that caused him to reconsider his more humanistic ideas, whereafter he turned into the more scientific marx that is known today.

I agree with your point that white leftists tend to downplay the problems of people of color, or downright ignore them. They offer very little in the way of solutions; all I see from these Twitter leftists is rhetoric. They can only champion working class activism because they are myopic and stupid and insulated from any ethnic dilemmas that are very real to us.

ultimately it comes down to a complete misunderstanding of racial dynamics in this country, or just plain cynicism that isn’t unlike a WASP republican.

What really gets me is that self determination is a tenet of socialist thought. The oppressed should have the right to sovereignty, and indeed, some marxists such as Che were heavy proponents of this. But this is all lost to the modern white leftist that would rather argue on Twitter than affect any sort of radical change.

 

[dora_da_destroyer]

In any example of Slavery in the history of the world we can agree that racism/ethnic supremacy played a role.

It doesn't matter if it was Europeans doing it to Europeans, Arabs to Africans, Africans to Africans, whoever to the Jews, or Europeans to Africans. They all that they were superior to those they held as slaves.

But we're talking about African chattel slavery to the US here. There's reasons why Indians and Europeans weren't enslaved in the same way, and those reasons are economic. It's not because they didn't try...

they didn't try with europeans, and it wasn't economics. they did try with native americans, but between disease and them knowing the area better, it didn't work - white supremacy and racism was there with NA's, and you can see it in how they were brutally forced off their land.