illmatic: lyrical masterpiece or fraud?

[intilectual recipricol]

This Juelz verse is more lyrical than anything on illmatic

Yo I try to be easy
I try to be calm breathe easy, it don't seem easy
I'm on my Ps and Qs, Ys and Zs, .45 on the side of me
Plus, four guys on the side of me, with .45 on the side of them
We can play now, this is a war not a playground
We came here to lay or get laid down, spray or get sprayed down
Wills for us anyday now, cops with their wall to wall raids down
I'm ducking and weaving, running and leaving
Not trying to feel the cuffs when they squeezing
Or the plugger they stuck to Lumina
So I'm stuck with this nina, I'm stuck with this finger
Itchy as fukk, you're fukked if I leave ya chump
Went to school, but ain't stay in class, hated class
Only for period, yep, I could relate to math
Played games, but the games was bad
You know, cops and robbers, laser tag, see what I was aiming at
Hop scotching on nikkaz faces kept my ankles bad
That ain't stop me from working I got me a worker
Gotta him to work, and yeah, chopping the work up
Keep him on my clock, clocking my work up, nikkaz know me
Taught him how to cook, livin his work up
Told him it's not the pot, it's the worker, gotta mix shorty
Gotta do it like this shorty
Clockwise, counter-clockwise, it's all in the wrist shorty
fukk with me

 

[Niqqa You Gay]

The troll game aint what it used to be. You new mikki fikkis are too obvious and not clever enough

 

[Heelish]

Your Nas hate is strong

Also, are you serious or trolling when you say Twista is top 5?

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Your Nas hate is strong

Also, are you serious or trolling when you say Twista is top 5?

Ask yourself this, why has no naS stan put forth some defense or some lyrical content, with an explanation of what makes it lyrical? Twista shyts on naS in 94.

 

[Amestafuu (Emeritus)]

Ask yourself this, why has no naS stan put forth some defense or some lyrical content, with an explanation of what makes it lyrical? Twista shyts on naS in 94.

Because your obvious trolling doesn't call for a serious answer... Besides your the ultimate nas Stan... U act like his scorned baby moms.

 

[No1]

I'm going to be honest, I've always been part of the IWW>>>Illmatic as far as a complete album goes contigent. You can say what you want about the OP but his favorite rapper thinks the same. I understand the historical impact of Illmatic and how it changed the game, but you guys aren't really arguing away his points.

The OP is basically saying that he doesn't see the lyricism is seemingly incoherent bars. It's the same as in how people think some poetry is overrated if it's just tossing phrases on the page that may mean something in the abstract but don't build up and tie together neatly. He doesn't appreciate that songs like Memory Lane are basically free verse.

It's no surprise that Nas is at his best when he is storytelling, it allows him to take the ability to create vivid descriptions and concentrate it into a single purpose. Again, it boils down to subjective opinions about lyricism--the OP is saying that metaphors, wordplay, punchlines, sarcasm, irony, and wit when done at their highest level is superior to an accumulative exposition of creative imagery and vivid depictions and superior tone-setting (Nas' M.O).

It's really not an unreasonable position to feel that Illmatic is in some ways overrated if you adhere to former criteria, which he has consistently demonstrated that he does. He's really attacking Nas' notion as a lyricist on those grounds, and not a single poster has stated why that way is looking at lyricism in the wrong way. There are debates among poets for a reason and artists for a reason, people can disagree about great works. But if you argue on his terms, then he's correct. To prove him wrong, all one has to do is reshape the argument, which isn't very hard to do.

 

[John Hull]

Rappity rap rappin was still fairly new when Nas came out with Illmatic. Illmatic is the definition of the poetry slam 90's style that emcees were using up until about 95-96 when everything switched over to Mafioso style storytelling.

Which as the OP also admits Nas was ahead of the curve with that too on IWW.

If you think about it, most of the better rappers in Wu-Tang be on some Nas shyt with all the non sequitur spazzing that Ghost and Rae be doin, it's kind of funny that Nas is getting shyt on for basically fathering half the nikkas in the 90's who get props for being poetic.

I guess people just like to find a LOSS for Nas wherever they can even if it's only in their imagination.

Illmatic is a classic because of Premier's production more than Nas emceein but don't get it fukked up, when Illmatic dropped nikkas was praising the gawd Nasir

 

[intilectual recipricol]

I'm going to be honest, I've always been part of the IWW>>>Illmatic as far as a complete album goes contigent. You can say what you want about the OP but his favorite rapper thinks the same. I understand the historical impact of Illmatic and how it changed the game, but you guys aren't really arguing away his points.

The OP is basically saying that he doesn't see the lyricism is seemingly incoherent bars. It's the same as in how people think some poetry is overrated if it's just tossing phrases on the page that may mean something in the abstract but don't build up and tie together neatly. He doesn't appreciate that songs like Memory Lane are basically free verse.

It's no surprise that Nas is at his best when he is storytelling, it allows him to take the ability to create vivid descriptions and concentrate it into a single purpose. Again, it boils down to subjective opinions about lyricism--the OP is saying that metaphors, wordplay, punchlines, sarcasm, irony, and wit when done at their highest level is superior to an accumulative exposition of creative imagery and vivid depictions and superior tone-setting (Nas' M.O).

It's really not an unreasonable position to feel that Illmatic is in some ways overrated if you adhere to former criteria, which he has consistently demonstrated that he does. He's really attacking Nas' notion as a lyricist on those grounds, and not a single poster has stated why that way is looking at lyricism in the wrong way. There are debates among poets for a reason and artists for a reason, people can disagree about great works. But if you argue on his terms, then he's correct. To prove him wrong, all one has to do is reshape the argument, which isn't very hard to do.

This is perfect...

+1

I would add one thing... if we grant naS the benefit of the doubt with his incoherent bars and such, then we gotta do the same for every other rapper. I fail to see how illmatic is a better lyrical feat than.... 2Pacalypse Now, which came out before illmatic.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Rappity rap rappin was still fairly new when Nas came out with Illmatic. Illmatic is the definition of the poetry slam 90's style that emcees were using up until about 95-96 when everything switched over to Mafioso style storytelling.

Which as the OP also admits Nas was ahead of the curve with that too on IWW.

If you think about it, most of the better rappers in Wu-Tang be on some Nas shyt with all the non sequitur spazzing that Ghost and Rae be doin, it's kind of funny that Nas is getting shyt on for basically fathering half the nikkas in the 90's who get props for being poetic.

I guess people just like to find a LOSS for Nas wherever they can even if it's only in their imagination.

Illmatic is a classic because of Premier's production more than Nas emceein but don't get it fukked up, when Illmatic dropped nikkas was praising the gawd Nasir

was Pac "rippity rap rappin" in 1991 (2Pacalypse Now) before illmatic came out? Was Snoop "rippity rap rappin" in 1992 (The Chronic) before illmatic came out? Was LL "rippity rap rappin" in the 80's before illmatic came out? Was Twista "rippity rap rappin" in 1994 (Resurrection) the same year illmatic came out? Was Ice Cube "rippity rap rappin" in '89 with NWA? Was Scarface "rippity rap rappin" in the early 90's? Was Common "rippity rap rappin" in 92 (Can I Borrow a Dollar)?

I think we know the answer to all those questions. Its just another case of niccaz givin illmatic credit where it doesnt deserve any. All those rappers gave naS a style that he could run with.

As for Wu Tang, I really dont fukc with those niccaz, I think they are genuine garbage. I like a lil KP, some Ghost, and some Meth... none of the others have any redeemable qualities.

I also fail to see how naS was more poetic than say.... Common. But I dont even have to take it that far, we can use that Juelz verse at the top of the page. How is anything on illmatic more poetic than that?

 

[mobbinfms]

This Juelz verse is more lyrical than anything on illmatic

Yo I try to be easy
I try to be calm breathe easy, it don't seem easy
I'm on my Ps and Qs, Ys and Zs, .45 on the side of me
Plus, four guys on the side of me, with .45 on the side of them
We can play now, this is a war not a playground
We came here to lay or get laid down, spray or get sprayed down
Wills for us anyday now, cops with their wall to wall raids down
I'm ducking and weaving, running and leaving
Not trying to feel the cuffs when they squeezing
Or the plugger they stuck to Lumina
So I'm stuck with this nina, I'm stuck with this finger
Itchy as fukk, you're fukked if I leave ya chump
Went to school, but ain't stay in class, hated class
Only for period, yep, I could relate to math
Played games, but the games was bad
You know, cops and robbers, laser tag, see what I was aiming at
Hop scotching on nikkaz faces kept my ankles bad
That ain't stop me from working I got me a worker
Gotta him to work, and yeah, chopping the work up
Keep him on my clock, clocking my work up, nikkaz know me
Taught him how to cook, livin his work up
Told him it's not the pot, it's the worker, gotta mix shorty
Gotta do it like this shorty
Clockwise, counter-clockwise, it's all in the wrist shorty
fukk with me

Other than the cuffs squeezing/plunger Louima line...what's good about this verse? Just a bunch of incredibly lazy rhymes to me. And he ain't really saying shyt.

Don't get me wrong - it sounds great over that beat - but lyrically it was wack.

 

[intilectual recipricol]

Other than the cuffs squeezing/plunger Louima line...what's good about this verse? Just a bunch of incredibly lazy rhymes to me. And he ain't really saying shyt.

Don't get me wrong - it sounds great over that beat - but lyrically it was wack.

This is my point, all of a sudden niccaz wanna look at "actual lyricism" because the rapper we're discussing is Juelz, and according to niccaz he's not a "lyricist". I just broke down a whole album of a nicca spittin incoherent shyt talkin about gettin the mack and makin niccaz backflip, stabbin betches, and hijacking airliners and smokin weed and niccaz came through with endless excuses as to why it is lyricism and why he was "sayin something"... "he's referencing his state of mind..."

to be honest the Juelz shyt flowed better and it came off more natural than any of the verses from naS. naS on illmatic was notorious for adding any old word to the end of a bar to make it rhyme or rhyme better "trife life" while Elz shyt rhymed naturally.

Would I say Juelz verse was great lyricism? Nope. but better than illmatic verses? Yep. If I'm wrong show me the lyricism youre speaking of and how it differs from what Juelz wrote.

 

[Artfull Dodger]

The problem isn't with Nas. The problem is you're a fukkin retard.

Spoiler

 

[mobbinfms]

This is my point, all of a sudden niccaz wanna look at "actual lyricism" because the rapper we're discussing is Juelz, and according to niccaz he's not a "lyricist". I just broke down a whole album of a nicca spittin incoherent shyt talkin about gettin the mack and makin niccaz backflip, stabbin betches, and hijacking airliners and smokin weed and niccaz came through with endless excuses as to why it is lyricism and why he was "sayin something"... "he's referencing his state of mind..."

to be honest the Juelz shyt flowed better and it came off more natural than any of the verses from naS. naS on illmatic was notorious for adding any old word to the end of a bar to make it rhyme or rhyme better "trife life" while Elz shyt rhymed naturally.

Would I say Juelz verse was great lyricism? Nope. but better than illmatic verses? Yep. If I'm wrong show me the lyricism youre speaking of and how it differs from what Juelz wrote.

I already explained where you're going wrong in listening to Illmatic. Of course, I think you're hating for the sake of hating.


But that another issue. One I'm not fonna go back am forth with you because it woul be a waste of time.

Seems you agree the Juelz verse ain't lyrical. So we're on the same page.

And Nas' flow on Illmatic was amazing.

 

[Whitty Hutton]

Ask yourself this, why has no naS stan put forth some defense or some lyrical content, with an explanation of what makes it lyrical? Twista shyts on naS in 94.

Because no one cares enough to put forth some "defense or some lyrical content" to some Pac stan. Either you think Nas is a GOAT or you don't. Either you love his lyricism or you don't. Nobody going through all that because you wanna troll and hate the nikka. Do you and stfu

 

[intilectual recipricol]

I already explained where you're going wrong in listening to Illmatic. Of course, I think you're hating for the sake of hating.


But that another issue. One I'm not fonna go back am forth with you because it woul be a waste of time.

Seems you agree the Juelz verse ain't lyrical. So we're on the same page.

And Nas' flow on Illmatic was amazing.

But what you havent done is show how naS illmatic lyrics are different from Juelz. I could actually show you how Elz aint rappin like Lupe on Failure, I can show you how Elz aint flowin like Twista on Impossible.

All you did was explain some rather simple lyrics and claimed that it flowed amazing. If you think naS flow was amazing on illmatic (which sounds choppy and forced to me) then Twistas Resurrection flow cant be described with words. And that still puts naS in the middle somewhere