If Bron wins his 5th ring/5th FMVP next year, back to back with LA. Would you consider him GOAT?

[The Devil's Advocate]

So then really what you're saying is Mike isn't the overall GOAT, just the GOAT since 1990? Or '87? Or whenever you start the modern era?



And Mike played in a league of continued expansion. There isn't a single pro-Mike talking point yall use that cant also be used against him, so the real question is, why is it your expectation that everybody should give Mike these different standards that others don't get, and why is it that certain points can be used in favor of him and not against? Why is it your expectation that muhfukkas supposed to fall in line to "Jordan Rules"?

Breh how can I say the man is better than somebody who retired before I was born and there is little to no film on? At least young kids now can go back and watch Jordan's full games and entire playoff series... What the hell do I have of Bill Russell to give my personal opinion on him?

All anyone under about 40 can say, is he won a lot of rings.. And then you look at how many teams, the rules, the fact you have no idea what the game looked like...... Yea... Jordan the GOAT of THIS NBA... Not the NBA where you didn't have 3 pointers and nikkas was coaching and playing in the game

Jordan didn't need to because his team already had the biggest talent advantage in the NBA. The amount of expansion teams in the NBA at the time diluted the league. For example, some of his fiercest opponents were teams like the Pacers and Knicks-- two teams with one "superstar" who were probably better served being a second option. His best finals opponent on paper might be the 1998 Jazz and not only did the Bulls have the better duo but they also had the better support players in Kukoc, Rodman, and Longley. Jordan's finals opponents weren't the caliber of a 2014 Spurs or the 2016-2018 Warriors. He always had more horses than every team he faced.

They added 2 teams in 88 and another 2 in 89 and not another team until 1995.. You trying to blame all that winning on expansion, shytty teams, and having all the talent?? So why were teams pushing them so hard? Why don't I hear the same about the Rockets when they had all the talent and won 2 rings? Why don't I hear that about Bron when he had all the talent in Miami and 2 all nba players in cleveland and a top 5 player in LA??


Seems to me, in the NBA, the team with the most talent almost always wins anyway. So what's the difference in anybody else's rings? Didn't Magic have talent around? Didn't Bird? But won't y'all turn around and hehe at Jordan for losing when he had nobody on his team? But he gets Pippen and now it's a problem he has too much talent... Cut it out

It was 27-29 teams when Jordan was winning

OK

That's almost triple the teams... Seems like a totally other NBA to me.. If in 30 years, there's 60 NBA teams, I will no longer be comparing Lebron to them 120 game nikkas

Prime Scottie Pippen is better than all those guys except Garnett and Bron

Pippen averaged 18-20 points most seasons. Stop trying to make him better than what he was His career average is 16ppg He averaged 15 points in the 1996 Finals and 15 points again in the 1998 Finals The other Finals he hovered between 19 to 21 points. Kyrie scored 40 points in a Finals game. Pippen never had one monster game like that.....and he played in 6 Finals He was a Luigi ass nikka. Bron would be crying if his second best player only put up 15 points

Right... Scottie wasn't EVER the best or second best player in the league... Has he ever even gotten an MVP vote, even when Jordan was gone?

They trying to turn Pippen into KD

 

[Conscious Pilot]

Damn y’all really never get sick of arguing over the same shyt again and again huh?

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Bruh this is so easily proven wrong, I dont know why yall keep saying it. Its cool if Mike is greater to you, thats not a hard take, but the idea that Mike's peak was more than at best marginally better than LeBron's is not proven by ANY metric:

Top 10 Ortg Seasons
'91 Mike/'13 LeBron (125)
'96 Mike (124)
'88 Mike/'89 Mike/'90 Mike (123)
'09 LeBron (122)
'92 Mike/'97 Mike/'10 LeBron/'14 LeBron (121)

(Playoffs Ortg)
'09 LeBron (128)
'91 Mike (127)
'17 LeBron (125)
'14 LeBron/'20 LeBron (124)
'96 Mike (123)
'18 LeBron (121)
'85 Mike/'89 Mike/'90 Mike (120)

Top 10 DRtg Seasons
'12 LeBron ('97)
'09 LeBron ('99)
'96 Mike/'98 Mike/'07 LeBron (100)
'88 Mike/'13 LeBron (101)
'91 Mike/'92 Mike/'93 Mike/'97 Mike/'10 LeBron/'11 LeBron (102)

(Playoffs DRtg)
'07 LeBron/'08 LeBron/'12 LeBron/'15 LeBron (99)
'09 LeBron/'16 LeBron (100)
'91 Mike/'96 Mike/'97 Mike/'13 LeBron (101)

PER
'88 Mike/'09 LeBron (31.7)
'91 Mike/'13 LeBron (31.6)
'90 Mike (31.2)
'89 Mike/'10 LeBron (31.1)
'12 LeBron (30.7)
'87 Mike (29.8)
'93 Mike (29.7)

(Playoffs PER)
'09 LeBron (37.4)
'18 LeBron (32.2)
'91 Mike (32)
'90 Mike (31.7)
'14 LeBron (31.1)
'12 LeBron (30.3)
'20 LeBron (30.2)
'86 Mike/'93 Mike/'17 LeBron (30.1)

Top 10 WS Seasons
'88 Mike (21.2)
'96 Mike (20.4)
'91 Mike/'09 LeBron (20.3)
'89 Mike (19.8)
'13 LeBron (19.3)
'90 Mike (19)
'10 LeBron (18.5)
'97 Mike (18.3)
'92 Mike (17.7)

(Playoffs WS)
'12 LeBron (5.8)
'13 LeBron/'18 LeBron (5.2)
'91 Mike/'98 Mike/'09 LeBron (4.8)
'96 Mike/'16 LeBron (4.7)
'93 Mike (4.4)
'14 LeBron/'17 LeBron/'20 LeBron (4.7)

Top 10 WS/48 Seasons
'13 LeBron (322)
'91 Mike (321)
'09 LeBron (318)
'96 Mike (317)
'88 Mike (308)
'10 LeBron (299)
'12 LeBron (298)
'89 Mike (292)
'90 Mike (285)
'97 Mike (283)

(Playoffs WS/48)
'09 LeBron (399)
'91 Mike (333)
'96 Mike (306)
'90 Mike/'12 LeBron (284)
'17 LeBron (275)
'16 LeBron (274)
'89 Mike/'93 Mike/'14 LeBron (270)

Where is is shown Mike had a higher peak?

The reality is, if we say Mike's peak was ~roughly~ 1987-1996 (give or take a year), and LeBron’s was ~roughly~ 2008-2017 (give or take a year), they match up as eerily similar in degree of performance and what they accomplished in that span:

Peak Mike (1987-1996) vs Peak LeBron (2008-2017)
Mike 32.1/6.6/5.9/2.7/0.9 on 518/351/841 shooting (23.4 FGA); LeBron 27/7.5/7.3/1.6/0.8 on 523/352/747 shooting (18.7 FGA)

(Playoffs) Mike 33.8/6.4/6.1/2.2/0.9 on 498/366/828 shooting (24.9 FGA); LeBron 28.6/9.1/6.8/1.8/1 on 500/341/742 shooting (20.6 FGA)

(ORtg/Drtg) Mike 122/102; LeBron 119/102

(Playoffs) Mike 119/103; LeBron 118/102

(PER) Mike 30.1; LeBron 29.2

(Playoffs PER) Mike 29; LeBron 29

(WS/WS48) Mike 138/.292; LeBron 140.8/.268

(Playoffs) Mike 29.4/.263; LeBron 38.3/.260

Chips: Mike 4 (4-0 Finals); LeBron 3 (3-4 Finals)

FMVPs: Mike 4, LeBron 3

MVPs: Mike 4, LeBron 4

All-NBA: Mike 7x 1st Team; LeBron 9x 1st Team

DPOY: Mike 1, LeBron 0

All-Defense: Mike 7x 1st Team; LeBron 6x (5x 1st Team)

Exactly where is the gap? I can see how someone would give Mike the edge but thus is a comparison of both at the absolute top of their games, they are obviously neck and neck and you could easily make the argument LeBron should be considered greater...

Comparing Bron's last 6 Finals trips (so not even counting two championship years he won) and Playoff PER's in comparison to Jordan 6 trips

Bron

2020 33.6 (31.7 Playoffs)
2018 30.9 (33.2 Playoffs)
2017 30.9 (31.2 Playoffs)
2016 33.5 (31.5 Playoffs)
2015 27.5 (26.7 Playoffs) *No Kevin Love after 1st round and Kyrie missing games/last 5 finals games*
2014 32.6 (32.4 Playoffs)


Jordan *Adjusted for Pace* shoutout to @Houston911 who made me look it up.


1991 38.6 (37.9 for Playoffs)
1992 28.3 (30.7 for Playoffs)
1993 34 (34.7 for Playoffs)
1996 26 (30.6 for Playoffs)
1997 31.4 (29.7 for Playoffs)
1998 31.6 (31.5 for Playoffs)

The gap really isnt that great if at all. Basically there's 91 Jordan that clearly separates from any other version of both.

Its basically if 09 Bron had won a championship or had a better coach than Mike Brown

09 Bron had a 39 PER. I didnt adjust for pace. Left it as is...although the difference in pace wasnt too great between Bulls vs. Lakers in 91 (85.8) than Magic vs. Cavs (89.9)

Even though on the year that 91 Bulls team played at a faster pace overall than the 09 Cavs.

Regardless...its closer than people want to admit.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Right... Scottie wasn't EVER the best or second best player in the league... Has he ever even gotten an MVP vote, even when Jordan was gone?

Come on brother. Pippen finished top-10 in MVP voting almost every single year from 1992 to 1998.

The year MJ left the Bulls, Pippen finished #3 in MVP voting and was damn near the only non-center to pick up votes at all. He led the team within 1 point of beating the Knicks in the ECSF (Knicks made the FInals that year).

In 1996 he finished 5th, just a fraction behind Hakeem in 4th and with more than double the points of Gary Payton in 6th.

Almost every other year in that run he finished around 7th-11th. There's a reason he was on the Dream Team, Pippen was universally considered a top-10 player in that era.

 

[MostReal]

This ish is at ad nauseam levels brehs

 

[DJ Paul's Arm]

This one didn't even count.

Teams had a whole off season to rest during the shut down (4 months). Played a few "regular" season games and then straight to the playoffs.

No traveling, no jet lag teams can take advantage of, no fans = no choking, no pressure of a loud ass away crowds, etc etc etc

 

[Leavingtheecstasy]

Another finals MVP and kareems scoring title makes him the goat for me personally


He's had way more intense competition than Jordan faced. MJ had some great opponents but i take the 2014 spurs and any version of the warriors from 2016-2019 over any team Jordan faced


But Lebron definitely gotta win one more finals mvp. If he gets 2 finals mvps and kareems scoring record it should be a wrap objectively.

 

[Leavingtheecstasy]

Bullshyt to even bring that up my dude.

you goofy nikkas are failing to see the point.


On the nba’s BIGGEST state...

mike went undefeated.


Period. End of discussion.

So its better to lose in the first round?

This argument is just idiotic.

Being a runner up is somehow worse than being ousted in the first like a little bytch?


You saying giannis had a better postseason than jimmy butler because he lost first?


That finals record doesnt mean shyt as long as lebron gets to 6 wins. Thats what shpuld matter for the majority of people. For me he only needs 5 but the majority of the NBA would change their minds if he 3 peats with the lakers

 

[murksiderock]

@Dave24

LeBron
Mike
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

Just some brief explanations:

•its a two-man race at #1 for me, no one else is in the running there's a considerable gap between the Top 2 and Kareem. Others have plausible reasons they prefer Mike. I have Bron over Mike for a variety of reasons, but a few of which being: getting to 40% more Finals means he more often put his teams in position to win a championship, which isn't dependent on longevity because they 15 seasons like Mike, he'd been to 9 Finals; thru 13 years like Mike with Chicago he'd been to 7 Finals...

LeBron more often put his team in championship contention, and the fact he lost some Finals says more about his slate of opponents than his actual play which was generally stellar...

I think it matters that you can take a varied assortment of systems, coaching styles, styles of play, and teammates to a championship. Mike did it with one he did do it 6 times, but he still only did it with one coach, one system. Of the two LeBron is the only one you could give anybody and if he's healthy, you're a championship contender. That isnt the case with Mike...

I also think when you look at their performance peaks and how similar they are in scale, what tips it to LeBron for me is while Mike edges him in regular season, LeBron edges him in the playoffs, and I value that strongly. Obviously Mike was an outstanding playoff guy, LeBron is just marginally stronger there. Did Jordan ever win a single series he wasn't favored in? The answer is no, whereas LeBron has done this a number of times. How you perform with your back on the wall has significance to me...

I have a list of other reasons too, but to reiterate, I absolutely have an argument i can make for Mike over LeBron. I just dont personally believe he was greater, abd honestly I feel like they are two sides of the same coin, but pressed to pick just one, I'm taking Bron; if Mike is still ahead of him it isnt by more than a slim margin...

•my 4 thru 7 is really dicey to me and can be ordered a number of ways. I'm not necessarily tripping about the order, other than Kobe's case for Top 5 is weaker than the guys I have in front of him, but I can see him as high as 6...

I can see Duncan as high as 4, I can see Magic as low as 7, and personally I believe Bird was the best player of that group. So the order isn't that important to me...

•at this point Wilt and Russell are bottom Top 10. No shame in that seeing they've both been out the game 47-51 years. Some guys have just passed their work, 50 years ago they woukda been the only two...

•Shaq is probably my last Top 10 guy, but there's a lot to be desired there. I remember in his prime he was billed as "the most dominant player ever", but he really wasn't. Wilt, Kareem, Mike, and LeBron all have higher peak levels of performance, and Bird is probably just slightly under him...

Still one of the greatest ever for sure but he isn't the player Duncan was and they played in the same era. Kobe passed him along the way. He was a great player, but a tad overrated, never led a deep playoff run without a superstar wing, something we've seen guys like Dream and Duncan do...

 

[sfgiants]

So its better to lose in the first round?

This argument is just idiotic.

Being a runner up is somehow worse than being ousted in the first like a little bytch?


You saying giannis had a better postseason than jimmy butler because he lost first?


That finals record doesnt mean shyt as long as lebron gets to 6 wins. Thats what shpuld matter for the majority of people. For me he only needs 5 but the majority of the NBA would change their minds if he 3 peats with the lakers

This post is so pathetic because it’s almost word for word tweets the biggest dikk eater cac nerd Nick Wright tweeted a few days ago

don’t make me post them. You should apologize to everyone and especially yourself for doing this. Youre fukkin nasty

 

[Cadillac]

.

of course there are numbers and aspects in which bron is seen as better number wise(value replacement is one of them, but its clear hes gonna be better in that given how he wants his teams to be for him so its less about how better he is than jordan and more so team construction). But in alot of them Jordan is seen as better whether its by a margin or a mile its still better

and peak as i said is just one of them not the sole reason, there are other factors that play into Jordans GOAT status such as accomplishments, production, performance and the consistency of it, etc. and as casual as it may sound holes in their careers. Jordan didnt have a 2010 ECSF or 2011 Final holes like Lebron does. Plus his scoring type of game I and others would say gives jordan the advantage over lebron's play making focus game.


and MJ's peak is arguably not even 96 given his time off with baseball. his "peak" haults at 93 before goin to baseball

so you got 88 tll 93(5th to his 9th season) if you were to compare lebron and his 5th to 9th they are similar in some parts but goin off what i just mentioned with everything into play, jordan has him.

 

[Dave24]

@Dave24

LeBron
Mike
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

Just some brief explanations:

•its a two-man race at #1 for me, no one else is in the running there's a considerable gap between the Top 2 and Kareem. Others have plausible reasons they prefer Mike. I have Bron over Mike for a variety of reasons, but a few of which being: getting to 40% more Finals means he more often put his teams in position to win a championship, which isn't dependent on longevity because they 15 seasons like Mike, he'd been to 9 Finals; thru 13 years like Mike with Chicago he'd been to 7 Finals...

LeBron more often put his team in championship contention, and the fact he lost some Finals says more about his slate of opponents than his actual play which was generally stellar...

I think it matters that you can take a varied assortment of systems, coaching styles, styles of play, and teammates to a championship. Mike did it with one he did do it 6 times, but he still only did it with one coach, one system. Of the two LeBron is the only one you could give anybody and if he's healthy, you're a championship contender. That isnt the case with Mike...

I also think when you look at their performance peaks and how similar they are in scale, what tips it to LeBron for me is while Mike edges him in regular season, LeBron edges him in the playoffs, and I value that strongly. Obviously Mike was an outstanding playoff guy, LeBron is just marginally stronger there. Did Jordan ever win a single series he wasn't favored in? The answer is no, whereas LeBron has done this a number of times. How you perform with your back on the wall has significance to me...

I have a list of other reasons too, but to reiterate, I absolutely have an argument i can make for Mike over LeBron. I just dont personally believe he was greater, abd honestly I feel like they are two sides of the same coin, but pressed to pick just one, I'm taking Bron; if Mike is still ahead of him it isnt by more than a slim margin...

•my 4 thru 7 is really dicey to me and can be ordered a number of ways. I'm not necessarily tripping about the order, other than Kobe's case for Top 5 is weaker than the guys I have in front of him, but I can see him as high as 6...

I can see Duncan as high as 4, I can see Magic as low as 7, and personally I believe Bird was the best player of that group. So the order isn't that important to me...

•at this point Wilt and Russell are bottom Top 10. No shame in that seeing they've both been out the game 47-51 years. Some guys have just passed their work, 50 years ago they woukda been the only two...

•Shaq is probably my last Top 10 guy, but there's a lot to be desired there. I remember in his prime he was billed as "the most dominant player ever", but he really wasn't. Wilt, Kareem, Mike, and LeBron all have higher peak levels of performance, and Bird is probably just slightly under him...

Still one of the greatest ever for sure but he isn't the player Duncan was and they played in the same era. Kobe passed him along the way. He was a great player, but a tad overrated, never led a deep playoff run without a superstar wing, something we've seen guys like Dream and Duncan do...

Dope post! I have mj at number one but you have great points and see where you are coming from.

 

[Leavingtheecstasy]

This post is so pathetic because it’s almost word for word tweets the biggest dikk eater cac nerd Nick Wright tweeted a few days ago

don’t make me post them. You should apologize to everyone and especially yourself for doing this. Youre fukkin nasty

He's right. Even that midget c*nt nosed fukk is right about this one.

And there isnt a smiley that gets you out of it.
Its fukking stupid to hold his record against him when he makes it to the end. Anyone who does is braindead

 

[fifth column]

So its better to lose in the first round?

This argument is just idiotic.

Being a runner up is somehow worse than being ousted in the first like a little bytch?


You saying giannis had a better postseason than jimmy butler because he lost first?


That finals record doesnt mean shyt as long as lebron gets to 6 wins. Thats what shpuld matter for the majority of people. For me he only needs 5 but the majority of the NBA would change their minds if he 3 peats with the lakers

If the finals 6-0 record didn’t mean anything then why does Bron need to get to 6? MJ 3-peated twice. We have seen enough after 17 years to know that Bron ain’t the goat.

 

[fifth column]

@Dave24

LeBron
Mike
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Shaq

Just some brief explanations:

•its a two-man race at #1 for me, no one else is in the running there's a considerable gap between the Top 2 and Kareem. Others have plausible reasons they prefer Mike. I have Bron over Mike for a variety of reasons, but a few of which being: getting to 40% more Finals means he more often put his teams in position to win a championship, which isn't dependent on longevity because they 15 seasons like Mike, he'd been to 9 Finals; thru 13 years like Mike with Chicago he'd been to 7 Finals...

LeBron more often put his team in championship contention, and the fact he lost some Finals says more about his slate of opponents than his actual play which was generally stellar...

I think it matters that you can take a varied assortment of systems, coaching styles, styles of play, and teammates to a championship. Mike did it with one he did do it 6 times, but he still only did it with one coach, one system. Of the two LeBron is the only one you could give anybody and if he's healthy, you're a championship contender. That isnt the case with Mike...

I also think when you look at their performance peaks and how similar they are in scale, what tips it to LeBron for me is while Mike edges him in regular season, LeBron edges him in the playoffs, and I value that strongly. Obviously Mike was an outstanding playoff guy, LeBron is just marginally stronger there. Did Jordan ever win a single series he wasn't favored in? The answer is no, whereas LeBron has done this a number of times. How you perform with your back on the wall has significance to me...

I have a list of other reasons too, but to reiterate, I absolutely have an argument i can make for Mike over LeBron. I just dont personally believe he was greater, abd honestly I feel like they are two sides of the same coin, but pressed to pick just one, I'm taking Bron; if Mike is still ahead of him it isnt by more than a slim margin...

•my 4 thru 7 is really dicey to me and can be ordered a number of ways. I'm not necessarily tripping about the order, other than Kobe's case for Top 5 is weaker than the guys I have in front of him, but I can see him as high as 6...

I can see Duncan as high as 4, I can see Magic as low as 7, and personally I believe Bird was the best player of that group. So the order isn't that important to me...

•at this point Wilt and Russell are bottom Top 10. No shame in that seeing they've both been out the game 47-51 years. Some guys have just passed their work, 50 years ago they woukda been the only two...

•Shaq is probably my last Top 10 guy, but there's a lot to be desired there. I remember in his prime he was billed as "the most dominant player ever", but he really wasn't. Wilt, Kareem, Mike, and LeBron all have higher peak levels of performance, and Bird is probably just slightly under him...

Still one of the greatest ever for sure but he isn't the player Duncan was and they played in the same era. Kobe passed him along the way. He was a great player, but a tad overrated, never led a deep playoff run without a superstar wing, something we've seen guys like Dream and Duncan do...

Any team that has MJ is going to be favored in the finals. This is why dude is the goat