If Bron wins his 5th ring/5th FMVP next year, back to back with LA. Would you consider him GOAT?

[Fortunate Lee]

no

he lost to dirk

if he wants to be goat, bron better invent a time machine

The same Dirk who swept the defending champs Lakers that year? Also beat a young Thunder team (who made the finals next year) team in 5.

 

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

Did you steal this thread from reddit

You never answered the inconvenience of you and that Reddit poster both being from Chicago?

 

[Morethan1]

You never answered the inconvenience of you and that Reddit poster both being from Chicago?

I'm not from Chicago.

Now did you steal this thread from reddit

 

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

I'm not from Chicago.

Now did you steal this thread from reddit

Its cold and windy as shyt today. I feel like im back in Chicago

 

[fifth column]

Bruh this is so easily proven wrong, I dont know why yall keep saying it. Its cool if Mike is greater to you, thats not a hard take, but the idea that Mike's peak was more than at best marginally better than LeBron's is not proven by ANY metric:

Top 10 Ortg Seasons
'91 Mike/'13 LeBron (125)
'96 Mike (124)
'88 Mike/'89 Mike/'90 Mike (123)
'09 LeBron (122)
'92 Mike/'97 Mike/'10 LeBron/'14 LeBron (121)

(Playoffs Ortg)
'09 LeBron (128)
'91 Mike (127)
'17 LeBron (125)
'14 LeBron/'20 LeBron (124)
'96 Mike (123)
'18 LeBron (121)
'85 Mike/'89 Mike/'90 Mike (120)

Top 10 DRtg Seasons
'12 LeBron ('97)
'09 LeBron ('99)
'96 Mike/'98 Mike/'07 LeBron (100)
'88 Mike/'13 LeBron (101)
'91 Mike/'92 Mike/'93 Mike/'97 Mike/'10 LeBron/'11 LeBron (102)

(Playoffs DRtg)
'07 LeBron/'08 LeBron/'12 LeBron/'15 LeBron (99)
'09 LeBron/'16 LeBron (100)
'91 Mike/'96 Mike/'97 Mike/'13 LeBron (101)

PER
'88 Mike/'09 LeBron (31.7)
'91 Mike/'13 LeBron (31.6)
'90 Mike (31.2)
'89 Mike/'10 LeBron (31.1)
'12 LeBron (30.7)
'87 Mike (29.8)
'93 Mike (29.7)

(Playoffs PER)
'09 LeBron (37.4)
'18 LeBron (32.2)
'91 Mike (32)
'90 Mike (31.7)
'14 LeBron (31.1)
'12 LeBron (30.3)
'20 LeBron (30.2)
'86 Mike/'93 Mike/'17 LeBron (30.1)

Top 10 WS Seasons
'88 Mike (21.2)
'96 Mike (20.4)
'91 Mike/'09 LeBron (20.3)
'89 Mike (19.8)
'13 LeBron (19.3)
'90 Mike (19)
'10 LeBron (18.5)
'97 Mike (18.3)
'92 Mike (17.7)

(Playoffs WS)
'12 LeBron (5.8)
'13 LeBron/'18 LeBron (5.2)
'91 Mike/'98 Mike/'09 LeBron (4.8)
'96 Mike/'16 LeBron (4.7)
'93 Mike (4.4)
'14 LeBron/'17 LeBron/'20 LeBron (4.7)

Top 10 WS/48 Seasons
'13 LeBron (322)
'91 Mike (321)
'09 LeBron (318)
'96 Mike (317)
'88 Mike (308)
'10 LeBron (299)
'12 LeBron (298)
'89 Mike (292)
'90 Mike (285)
'97 Mike (283)

(Playoffs WS/48)
'09 LeBron (399)
'91 Mike (333)
'96 Mike (306)
'90 Mike/'12 LeBron (284)
'17 LeBron (275)
'16 LeBron (274)
'89 Mike/'93 Mike/'14 LeBron (270)

Where is is shown Mike had a higher peak?

The reality is, if we say Mike's peak was ~roughly~ 1987-1996 (give or take a year), and LeBron’s was ~roughly~ 2008-2017 (give or take a year), they match up as eerily similar in degree of performance and what they accomplished in that span:

Peak Mike (1987-1996) vs Peak LeBron (2008-2017)
Mike 32.1/6.6/5.9/2.7/0.9 on 518/351/841 shooting (23.4 FGA); LeBron 27/7.5/7.3/1.6/0.8 on 523/352/747 shooting (18.7 FGA)

(Playoffs) Mike 33.8/6.4/6.1/2.2/0.9 on 498/366/828 shooting (24.9 FGA); LeBron 28.6/9.1/6.8/1.8/1 on 500/341/742 shooting (20.6 FGA)

(ORtg/Drtg) Mike 122/102; LeBron 119/102

(Playoffs) Mike 119/103; LeBron 118/102

(PER) Mike 30.1; LeBron 29.2

(Playoffs PER) Mike 29; LeBron 29

(WS/WS48) Mike 138/.292; LeBron 140.8/.268

(Playoffs) Mike 29.4/.263; LeBron 38.3/.260

Chips: Mike 4 (4-0 Finals); LeBron 3 (3-4 Finals)

FMVPs: Mike 4, LeBron 3

MVPs: Mike 4, LeBron 4

All-NBA: Mike 7x 1st Team; LeBron 9x 1st Team

DPOY: Mike 1, LeBron 0

All-Defense: Mike 7x 1st Team; LeBron 6x (5x 1st Team)

Exactly where is the gap? I can see how someone would give Mike the edge but thus is a comparison of both at the absolute top of their games, they are obviously neck and neck and you could easily make the argument LeBron should be considered greater...

Based on the numbers that you curated I don’t see where we can consider Bron greater. Prime MJ is the goat until a worthy challenger comes along. Bron’s career is like the FEDs just keep trying a nikka until eventually convict him. MJ came through and proved he is goat in a reasonable time frame. What are we doing here with 17 seasons in the books, like seriously. I can’t wait for the day a real killa comes through the association and give us 6-7 chips in 14 years destroying everything moving. Then it’s move over MJ

 

[Mandizi]

He will never be the goat in my book. One of the all-time greats, most def.

 

[Black_Panther_JS]

All that proves is that MJ wasn't good enough to get to the "biggest stage" as many times as Bron. Or do you seem to think that all those years that MJ couldn't get to the Finals throughout his career he somehow was still good enough to get to the Finals and win? Are you of the opinion MJ was good enough to win a title in every single season?

Again - make it make sense.

He was losing to the Celtics and Pistons, 2 historically great teams, not like he was losing to scrubs

But when he got over that he dominated the NBA. It took Bron a while to start dominating too

But with Bron he loses, forms a super team and will lose win lose win leave form another super team lose win lose lose then form another super team.

He never dominates the NBA for a period and has great help everytime so it’s not like he has bums on his team

 

[Ozymandeas]

Based on the numbers that you curated I don’t see where we can consider Bron greater. Prime MJ is the goat until a worthy challenger comes along. Bron’s career is like the FEDs just keep trying a nikka until eventually convict him. MJ came through and proved he is goat in a reasonable time frame. What are we doing here with 17 seasons in the books, like seriously. I can’t wait for the day a real killa comes through the association and give us 6-7 chips in 14 years destroying everything moving. Then it’s move over MJ

Same here. I tell my best friend (who is a MAJOR Bron stan) this every other week. When the real heir to Jordan comes through, we won’t have to debate about it. There will be almost no disagreement. Like it or not MAGA Brady proved he was the GOAT and we all had to lean back. It was obvious he was the GOAT already by the time he beat the Seahawks but people still wanted to put Montana over him. Then he got ring number 5 after coming back being down 28-3 and the conversation was over. After getting the 6th ring it was overkill. He got two more than Montana in a sport where QBs lucky to get one. For Bron to even think about supplanting Jordan he would need to not match his ring count. He needs to get more because Jordan has him beat everywhere else and was so much more dominant. LeBron needs to get three more rings and he won’t. If he gets two more, it will be an argument but not a winning one because his record is so fukking spotty in comparison. When the REAL NEW GOAT comes in, he’s going to be averaging 30 points a game. Nikka going to be flying out the gym. Nikka going to be dominating with just a few role players and shooters....not a super team. He’s going to take a scrub team like the Hawks, Nets, Pacers, Magic, Grizzlies and completely turn their franchise around like Jordan did the Bulls or Steph with the Warriors. He’s going to break mad records, win every award you can think of. And even if he only gets 4 or 5 rings, he’ll STILL be looked at as better than Bron because he won’t have all the blemishes and he’ll be considered as good or better than Jordan. People won’t have to be crying to get him respect.

 

[Rekkapryde]

Because when mike got to the biggest stage

he never lost


Ever



what’s hard to comprehend?


Mike had less help than bron too...

To be fair Mike's Finals competition wasn't as good as Bron's. Can't deny that.

But that 11 Finals..... No way Mike goes out like that

 

[murksiderock]

@murksiderock who do you have in your top ten GOAT list?

I aint forgot about you, I'm actually running thru and updating my list (lol) as we speak because I haven't given a Top 10, the order I have it in, much thought in a good minute. So I'll be back later with it!

Based on the numbers that you curated I don’t see where we can consider Bron greater. Prime MJ is the goat until a worthy challenger comes along. Bron’s career is like the FEDs just keep trying a nikka until eventually convict him. MJ came through and proved he is goat in a reasonable time frame. What are we doing here with 17 seasons in the books, like seriously. I can’t wait for the day a real killa comes through the association and give us 6-7 chips in 14 years destroying everything moving. Then it’s move over MJ

No SUPERSTAR is ever winning 6 championships again. Its not happening. A couple guys will Robert Horry/Danny Green themselves to 6, but its not happening...

Jordan was the last superstar to hit 6 and that was 22 years ago. Just a decade after Kareem's 6th. Which itself was just 12 years after Hondo's 8th, 14 years after Hondo's 7th, and 19 years after Hondo's 6th...

We are 22 years removed from the last superstar winning 6 rings, with no one really in shot of getting to 6 who is actively playing. You guys gotta pay attention, the atmosphere for guys being able to run up more than 5 titles ended with the turn of the century...

So thats the first thing. The second thing is, while some of you disagree, many of us view LeBron as greater already well before 6 rings, abd when the historical peer comes along to both of them, they will prove their weight thru their dominance in play. They will win multiple championships too but "6" is not gonna be some hallowed ground to achieve, whether he gets that many or not won't diminish his weight in that Jordan/LeBron class of player...

 

[DlAMONDZ]

Bron will never be the GOAT

Jordan's legacy has been deified to an extreme degree. People really think the 90's which was littered with shytty expansion teams is/was the toughest

 

[Jordan>>LeFrozen]

Rings haven't been the end all/be all since forever, though...

I appreciate this response though, because it highlights exactly where the hypocritical logic lies, literally every point used in favor of Mike can be used against him:

•"MJ was just too dominant a cultural figure by '93 so the standards that he needed more rings than everyone else didn't apply to him"----->LeBron has been a dominant cultural figure since he was a kid and has increased his captivation and impact on the world around him his entire career. If being a dominant cultural figure is the impetus to being the GOAT, LeBron has this in spades....let me guess, the next phase of this criteria is to start weighing who was "more" culturally dominant when the initial statement didn't put a degree on cultural dominance...

•"Bill's 11 cane in an era that allowed it to happen"----->Mike's 6 didn't? This idea that everybody else's era can be used against them for Jordan's benefit is absurd. Within recent threads, including this one, heads are using Russell's era against him vs a 1v1 comparison to Mike. And lord knows if you got a dollar every time you heard people use LeBron's era against him vs Mike, you'd literally be able to quit your fukking job lol...

You have never noticed that? Everybody else's era has a bunch of drawbacks except Michael Jordan's, and if you played in his era you must have been better, tougher, and smarter than anybody who played in ANY era before or after his. This is literally what Basketball Culture has been repeating and pushing in a myriad of ways for decades now...the double standards given to Mike are 1 of 1, literally no one else has this much grace and its dumb as hell...

The shift started a few years back, is still shifting currently, and will continue to shift more to the historical mean where ring counting wasnt the predominate determinant of All-Time GOATness. Its easy to say in the moment that history will dock Bron if he doesn't match Jordan's rings, but thats showing complete ignorance to how people talk about Bron now---->we already consider him greater than other GOATs who have more championships...

The only basketball related holes on his resume are the 2011 Finals and the 2010 Semis G5, if you're of the belief he quit on his team or choked, which are both not unpopular opinions. He has no other holes in his resume period, not one, and cats can't come with breaking down a skill-for-skill analysis because a)a skill analysis is irrelevant seeing as every great had a variance of things they did better or worse, from Duncan to Bird to Magic to Wilt and so on; and b)the skill analysis is irrelevant as anyone you could say was "more skilled" than LeBron never hit higher performance highs on those biggest stages when it really mattered...

History will be much more kind to an aspect of LeBron's career that few appreciate in real time: the mental toughness to rebound from '10 and '11 and become, at worst, a tie for most dominant playoff performer ever (at best he stands alone with that title). His ability to respond to that low point would have broken most players, and in real time millions of people were actively rooting for it to break LeBron, and instead it drove him to go on a now 9-year run (2011-12 to present) of the most dominant individual basketball there has been, up there with the individual dominance showcased by 90s Mike, 70s Kareem, and 60s Wilt before him...

I didn’t mean forever has in from the beginning. I meant forever as in for awhile

when did this Jordan 6 rings start? The early 2000s? Both me and you were probably in elementary/middle school by that point. We are both in our 30s now. That’s damn near forever bruh lol. Perhaps history will look back on Bron more kindly, but untill then, we won’t know. Ring count is important, however, to helping Bron shift that perception, cause had he lost against Miami, would we even be having this discussion? Sometimes you do just have to go out there and win

 

[fifth column]

I aint forgot about you, I'm actually running thru and updating my list (lol) as we speak because I haven't given a Top 10, the order I have it in, much thought in a good minute. So I'll be back later with it!



No SUPERSTAR is ever winning 6 championships again. Its not happening. A couple guys will Robert Horry/Danny Green themselves to 6, but its not happening...

Jordan was the last superstar to hit 6 and that was 22 years ago. Just a decade after Kareem's 6th. Which itself was just 12 years after Hondo's 8th, 14 years after Hondo's 7th, and 19 years after Hondo's 6th...

We are 22 years removed from the last superstar winning 6 rings, with no one really in shot of getting to 6 who is actively playing. You guys gotta pay attention, the atmosphere for guys being able to run up more than 5 titles ended with the turn of the century...

So thats the first thing. The second thing is, while some of you disagree, many of us view LeBron as greater already well before 6 rings, abd when the historical peer comes along to both of them, they will prove their weight thru their dominance in play. They will win multiple championships too but "6" is not gonna be some hallowed ground to achieve, whether he gets that many or not won't diminish his weight in that Jordan/LeBron class of player...

Danny Green and Horry are role players, they could with 100 rings and no one cares. I think some “superstar” player in the future will get to 6 or close. If that happens Bron is likely to get the sidestep Kobe treatment by the bias media and it will become another MJ goat debate.

 

[murksiderock]

Danny Green and Horry are role players, they could with 100 rings and no one cares. I think some “superstar” player in the future will get to 6 or close. If that happens Bron is likely to get the sidestep Kobe treatment by the bias media and it will become another MJ goat debate.

No I'm agreeing with you on the Horry/Green point, thats why i said no superstar is getting to 6. It used to be every era there was an All-Timer winning more than 5: 60s the whole Celtics roster lol; 70s saw Hondo add to his; 80s saw Kareem hop to 6; 90s saw Mike and Pippen...

We just went thru two entire decades and its not like there weren't All-Timers, Duncan and Kobe were "close" at 5, and still played a combined total of 8 years after winning #5 and couldn't reach #6....and they the only two to get to 5...

Dudes not just falling out the tree and running up 6 rings, or 5. The ones who have a shot are the ones with the dynasties of each era, so in this one that means Steph has a shot if you think GS has 2-3 more championship runs in them (i don't, unless they grab a generational talent; i think they have one more strong run left in them before age puts them down)...

There will be someone who gets to 5 again. 6 though? All the greats who won 6 played eras conducive to racking that much; people are gonna understand this more moving forward and "6" is not gonna be the marker--->it'll be any great player's personal mark but The Culture won't exclude a guy from that table without 6 if he's shown he earned that spot...

 

[ajnapoleon]

To be fair Mike's Finals competition wasn't as good as Bron's. Can't deny that.

But that 11 Finals..... No way Mike goes out like that

Does Jordan win a finals if

Pippen grant

Pippen Rodman

Gets hurt and can't play?


Who checks

Malone
Shaq
Zo
Kemp


Does Jordan go out and grab 13 14 rebounds while scoring 30


Does that happen?