Ice-T/Soledad O'Brien Fox Special:Tupac & Biggie's Death Separated Crews[Preview]

[Renzo]

After watching the show, a thought has occurred to me. The show said that the two competing theories contradict each other, but didn't elaborate on how. If you really think about it, they don't really contradict each other and both theories actually can be combined without changing much of the story on either side:

Suge told his girl to pay Poochie to orchestrate the hit (possibly after Reggie has already reached out to Suge through his girl). Poochie talks with Reggie who recruits Rafael Perez and David Mack (who possibly recruits Amir Muhammad/Harry Billups). The Murder Rap interpretation assumes because Poochie was a Blood shooter and was recruited that he actually did the shooting himself but this doesn't have to be the case, or, it may be right but he may have recruited help from Mack/Poochie because it was a high profile target and more difficult to pull off than the jobs Poochie was used to. Combining the theories actually adds credibility to both sides and explains a lot of details that either theory by itself can't:

-Suge's girl confessing and not suing Greg Kading after he published the story
- David Mack being affiliated with the bloods, could be who Poochie talked to to get competent help
- Mack having the right ammo and being desperate enough for cash to rob a bank later on
- The baseball prospect informant saying Mack and Perez were there
- Eugene Deal identifying Amir/Billups as the FOI guy who walked up
- Gene getting a warning call that same day. If it was Poochie by his lonesome, how would people have known? If it was just him and some bloods, how does Gene have connects with info on exactly those bloods? If it's people from security and police circles who were involved, it would make more sense that he as a security guard knew someone who might have heard something.
- the seemingly professional and coordinated manner in which the hit was pulled off, a blood by himself seems unlikely to be able to pull such a thing off by himself. Just the fact that he knew Biggie would be there and what exit he would take seems hard to predict in advance for a blood. Gene believes the car was parked there all night long before they left. Stakeouts are routine work for police officers.
- DJ Quick knowing about the hit (as claimed by Gene) because he is a blood and yet talking about a 'they'. If Poochie was such a loner who kept to himself, why would a blood like DJ Quik have heard about it already? Unless Poochie had been recruiting and people talked. And if it was a 'they' including Poochie it would be a mighty coincidence that dirty and DR/blood affiliated cop Mack would take up his days of absence for just the day of the murder and is present at the scene along with fellow dirty cop Perez.
- The police covering up their trail because a few dirty cops were involved and yet being able to present somewhat credible evidence that a blood was involved.
- Daz saying that Reggie was fukking Suge's girl. Their relationship makes it very unlikely that he didn't know what she was up to. Matter of fact, the whole Poochie thing might have been false info that Teresa Swann just ran with when it was presented to her because she knew that it was really Reggie who she had passed the info on to and not Poochie. It would explain her confession and also explain why Poochie was not identified at the scene and why Mack, Perez and Billups were.
- Both Suge and Reggie looking and sounding guilty as fukk every time they speak on the murder and them both pointing the finger at each other. If both Poochie and dirty cops were involved, it suits them beautifully to feed into the existence of 2 separate theories as they know the case will never be solved because both theories are missing crucial evidence that can prove it. Reggie can point at Suge because of Murder Rap and the credibility of Teresa Swann's confession and know he will never be implicated in the recruiting part of the story but also knows that Suge can't be convicted because Poochie is dead and was never identified as being at the scene. Suge can point at LAbyrinth and Reggie and his ties to the dirty cops who were identified as being at the scene and rest comfortably knowing that Reggie can't be tied to receiving orders from him because he only talked to Teresa.
-Also Suge saying on this show that the only thing he could be blamed for was not stopping something when it is offered or something like that. I thought it was strange how they didn't pursue that to ask what he meant by that. Sounds like he was suggesting Reggie came up with the idea and offered it to him through Teresa. He only jumped on board and OK'ed the money to be used but didn't necessarily order the hit in his own mind. He also hinted at the fact that Pac's life meant something to people and David Mack had a shrine to Pac in his home. It could be that he and some other bloods/DR affiliates brought up the idea to retaliate to Reggie and Reggie passed on the info to Suge via Teresa. Both Suge and Reggie tell themselves that they weren't the ones who ordered the hit. Reggie just passed on info to Suge and got the 'order' and Suge just let it be known that he wouldn't mind that they did whatever they planned on doing if he gave them some money. You can see the same kinda rationalizations in Puff's behavior with regards to his role in ordering the 2pac hit. Just kinda throwing the idea out there and enabling people without telling himself that he's really committed to the intention.

One other thing that I never hear discussed is who called the fire department to shut down the party? By all accounts there were too many people there so they had a legit reason to do so but are fire department officials usually present at such a party? If not, the fact that someone called them or arranged for them to be there gives another angle to a dirty cop theory as they could easily orchestrate such a move. The disorderly and abrupt ending of the party might make it easier for them to go unnoticed in the tumult.

Anyone who says Kading in Murder Rap disproved the Amir/Mack theory: he definitely didn't. I posted about this in another thread but if you rewatch it, his arguments are very selective and irrelevant to disproving the general suspicious facts especially about Mack. Only attacks some weaker side arguments of the theory.

It was disproved bc the guy pyscho mike couldn't pick Amir out a six pack line up circling two other people in addition to billups. Amir wasnt the first name he gave either. Then he said biggie was killed using a machine gun and the killer drove around L.A. in a white stretch limo, hardly inconspicuous for someone thats also a real estate agent. He even wore a wire to billups home which billups told him to leave threatening to call the cops. Finally pyscho Mike came out and recanted his entire story. It was a wild goose chase they were lead on by a jailhouse snitch which Poole built his entire theory around and Mack nor Perez were nowhere near that party unless you have a source for that?

 

[Dirty D]

It was disproved bc the guy pyscho mike couldn't pick Amir out a six pack line up circling two other people in addition to billups. Amir wasnt the first name he gave either. Then he said biggie was killed using a machine gun and the killer drove around L.A. in a white stretch limo, hardly inconspicuous for someone thats also a real estate agent. He even wore a wire to billups home which billups told him to leave threatening to call the cops. Finally pyscho Mike came out and recanted his entire story. It was a wild goose chase they were lead on by a jailhouse snitch which Poole built his entire theory around and Mack nor Perez were nowhere near that party unless you have a source for that?

Psycho Mike not being a credible witness isn't the same as disproving the Amir Muhammad/Harry Billups theory. That's a conflation of logic Kading is counting on. Numerous witnesses place Amir/Harry on the scene, he has a connection to Mack and they are suspected of also being involved in an earlier murder together as per LAbyrinth.

 

[inndaskKy]

It was disproved bc the guy pyscho mike couldn't pick Amir out a six pack line up circling two other people in addition to billups. Amir wasnt the first name he gave either. Then he said biggie was killed using a machine gun and the killer drove around L.A. in a white stretch limo, hardly inconspicuous for someone thats also a real estate agent. He even wore a wire to billups home which billups told him to leave threatening to call the cops. Finally pyscho Mike came out and recanted his entire story. It was a wild goose chase they were lead on by a jailhouse snitch which Poole built his entire theory around and Mack nor Perez were nowhere near that party unless you have a source for that?

It's in the Ice T show breh. The baseball prospect informant.

All the details from the other guy were irrelevant because he never claimed to know all the details. Also, it's not clear that when he's talking about 'the killer' that he's constantly talking about one and the same person if there were several people involved and he's hearing info on several of them. A semi-automatic weapon might be a machine gun to such a guy, who knows. If Amir/Billups doesn't exist, then whose picture did Gene Deal point out as being the Fruit of Islam guy?

 

[Renzo]

Psycho Mike not being a credible witness isn't the same as disproving the Amir Muhammad/Harry Billups theory. That's a conflation of logic Kading is counting on. Numerous witnesses place Amir/Harry on the scene, he has a connection to Mack and they are suspected of also being involved in an earlier murder together as per LAbyrinth.

If the bulk info came primarily from him and he is deemed untrustworthy aka a liar then it cast doubt on everything he says. The only one to my knowledge that said he was there was Eugene deal and if i recall correctly he couldn't even pick him out of the line up. There were two separate drawings made of the suspect and none of the witnesses could say for certain which was which.

 

[Renzo]

It's in the Ice T show breh. The baseball prospect informant.

All the details from the other guy were irrelevant because he never claimed to know all the details. Also, it's not clear that when he's talking about 'the killer' that he's constantly talking about one and the same person if there were several people involved and he's hearing info on several of them. A semi-automatic weapon might be a machine gun to such a guy, who knows. If Amir/Billups doesn't exist, then whose picture did Gene Deal point out as being the Fruit of Islam guy?

Fair point. But again the bulk of info came directly from him. Alot of it was flat out wrong and easily disputable. He even admitted to making it all up. He has no credibility. Here's the thing, regardless if you like kading or not, he put in actual detective work. He got witnesses to corroborate alot of Keefe D confession. Its not like he was making anything in his book up. He pretty much walked you thru how it all unfolded unlike Poole who changed his theory every few years til it became the convulted mess it is now being pushed by that weirdo Douglas Carlin

 

[inndaskKy]

If the bulk info came primarily from him and he is deemed untrustworthy aka a liar then it cast doubt on everything he says. The only one to my knowledge that said he was there was Eugene deal and if i recall correctly he couldn't even pick him out of the line up. There were two separate drawings made of the suspect and none of the witnesses could say for certain which was which.

The name was on the visitor's log for Mack though. That's independent evidence isn't it? Also, how do you explain the sketch resembling the photo of the man who is alleged to be Billups/Amir? I know that Cease and them said that the sketches didn't really look like the people they saw but where did this coincidental striking resemblance come from then?

 

[pointproven214]

wasn't there somebody on sohh or here that said they saw amir on this death row vhs called inside death row

@inndaskKy

 

[inndaskKy]

Fair point. But again the bulk of info came directly from him. Alot of it was flat out wrong and easily disputable. He even admitted to making it all up. He has no credibility. Here's the thing, regardless if you like kading or not, he put in actual detective work. He got witnesses to corroborate alot of Keefe D confession. Its not like he was making anything in his book up. He pretty much walked you thru how it all unfolded unlike Poole who changed his theory every few years til it became the convulted mess it is now being pushed by that weirdo Douglas Carlin

I don't discredit Murder Rap at all. I am convinced that he nailed it with the 2pac case. Even the Biggie case might have some merit to it as far as the Teresa confession goes but I don't think he successfully clears the dirty cops angle at all. That's why I say it might be a good idea to combine the theories. Another thing that speaks for doing that is that it leaves out speculation on Kading's true motives. He could be sincere and just be misled by the Teresa Swann confession or he could know it is bs and be covering for dirty cops. Either way, it leaves open the possibility that Teresa was involved (and possibly Poochie) but that there were law enforcement officials involved as well.

 

[inndaskKy]

wasn't there somebody on sohh or here that said they saw amir on this death row vhs called inside death row

@inndaskKy

Don't know. Not me.

 

[Renzo]

I don't discredit Murder Rap at all. I am convinced that he nailed it with the 2pac case. Even the Biggie case might have some merit to it as far as the Teresa confession goes but I don't think he successfully clears the dirty cops angle at all. That's why I say it might be a good idea to combine the theories. Another thing that speaks for doing that is that leaves out speculation on Kading's true motives. He could be sincere and just be misled by the Teresa Swann confession or he could know it is bs and be covering for dirty cops. Either way, it leaves open the possibility that Teresa was involved (and possibly Poochie) but that there were law enforcement officials involved as well.

And I can see that angle as well. I'm personally of the belief Swan or whatever her name is was lying. She cracked a little too easy. If you want the truth look a little deeper. Like that bum ass nikka wack said ..a West coast hand did it..but the money was paid by a New York G. Pac dying and Suge going to jail fukked alot of ppls money up. nikkas wont going let that slide.

 

[kingofnyc]

If anything his story disproves the single bullet theory. He said Pac was behind him. If the bullet that hit Fred came from Pac's gun how come it entered the stomach of the guy in front of him and not his back? That's some magical ricochet that flies all across that tiny space and doesn't hit the shooters or Stretch and Zayd but manages to end up doing a 360° move around to hit Fred in the stomach.

fred pointed to the side of his stomach, so pac must have turned facing the wall as he went for his gat when the shot went off


shyt crazy, who knows
but at the end of the day.... 4 of the total 7 nikkaz that was involved spoke on this
and 3 have the same one shot story freddie, stretch & dexter

 

[kingofnyc]

LOL. am I supposed to be impressed? theres dweebs from the projects too. I would say that youre one of them, but I can tell youre lying anyway.

and then you ramble on about this other bullchit that I don't care about. youre a kid to me.

and youre still caught up in this industry chit. don't you know that a lot of awards are driven by things like politics & money?
btw, your own mancrush biggie, said it himself that he didn't deserve all those awards that night.

as you continue to move the goalposts.

i'm not gonna get into a back n forth on the internet over some who realer shyt - i'm too old for that

so stick to the topic
you said bone thug was No.1 in '95 (i dropp'd 2 links that proved otherwise)
so explain how i'am moving the goalposts???

 

[Wacky D]

i'm not gonna get into a back n forth on the internet over some who realer shyt - i'm too old for that

so stick to the topic
you said bone thug was No.1 in '95 (i dropp'd 2 links that proved otherwise)
so explain how i'am moving the goalposts???

I said ACCORDING TO SOURCE MAGAZINE, they had them listed as the #1 rap act for '95.
I don't even care. I'm just making a point, seeing that you swear by media, especially the source. but I guess you only do that at your convenience.

 

[Kinguno]

Not to be that guy but I don't think Biggie makes it to 2001 better yet out of 97 alive

 

[kingofnyc]

I said ACCORDING TO SOURCE MAGAZINE, they had them listed as the #1 rap act for '95.
I don't even care. I'm just making a point, seeing that you swear by media, especially the source. but I guess you only do that at your convenience.

aint calling you a liar



but