I think we need the origin of "Moors", as in where did they come from. Why were they more advanced?

[6ixSideSavage]

Okay...


See UNESCO's Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century, Ivan Hrbek et al., 1992, p. 164.



(from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365).


13th c. A.D.--Abu Shama refers to the Masmuda as "blacks" in his Kitab al-Ravdatayn (B. Lewis, Islam: Religion and Society, 2; 1974, p. 21



- Yaacov Lev, "State and Society in Fatimid Egypt", 1987, pp 94

written by Isidore of Seville in The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville, translation by Steven A. Barney, published 2007. p. 386.

“underlines the fact that Moors are so named because they are black, and their blackness comes from the heat of the sun (9.2.121-23)” (Ramey, L., 2008)

6th c. A.D. - Procopius, a Byzantine in his History of the Wars book IV contrasting a white peoples who had settled in North Africa claimed they were not “black skinned like the Mauri...”

Are you aware of what the term "Moor" meant? While it evolved to mean Muslims in general it originally meant the Black population of Northwest Africa. Hell, the ironic thing is that the majority of black slaves did not go through the Trans Sahara Trade but instead East to the Near East.

As a lot of these "Sub Saharan" lineages like L3 that we associate with the slave trade not only PREDATE the slave trade but were always there since prehistoric times in Northwest Africa.

There were no such thing as "black" berbers before Islam arrived with the Arabs.That was my point which means Tariq bin Ziyad who was grown man when the great Arab armies invaded was most likely no different than the pure Berbers that you can find in the mountains of Algeria like Kabilye

And yes I do realize majority of slaves that ended in the Middle East were either Nilotic or Bantus from SE Africa but I'm talking about the Maghreb here...



And it's a fact majority of the blacks brought to the Maghreb were from West Africa or the Sahel....Another fact is that these Berber rulers would recruit black slaves since they have no loyalty other than to him kinda like what the Ottomans did with white Christian slaves found in Balkans (Jannisarries)

At one point this black guard in Morroco had around 150,000 W.African men at its peak.That just speaks to the scale/volume of the slave trade in NW Africa from West Africa.This trade heavily impacted majority of the Maghreb genetically but I have no doubt before Islam Morocco would have been much lighter than they are today

L3 isn't even an SSA marker...

 

[Bawon Samedi]

There were no such thing as "black" berbers before Islam arrived with the Arabs.That was my point which means Tariq bin Ziyad who was grown man when the great Arab armies invaded was most likely no different than the pure Berbers that you can find in the mountains of Algeria like Kabilye

Of course there were no such thing as "Black Berbers." Because terms such as "black" were not used. But there was a such thing as "Moor."

North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

And its interesting that bring up the Kabilye. Which this is said about them.

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

I know there were pale skinned Berbers like we see today but the bulk of them came after the expulsion of European Muslims from Southern Europe and European slaves. Just look at their maternal DNA.

But anyways in the sources I posted the writers clearly describe Berber groups like the Masmuda and others as "black" in appearances.

And yes I do realize majority of slaves that ended in the Middle East were either Nilotic or Bantus from SE Africa but I'm talking about the Maghreb here...

I KNOW that. But what I am saying is that the majority of slaves did not go to the Trans Sahara route as it was risky.
"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. " - Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

And it's a fact majority of the blacks brought to the Maghreb were from West Africa or the Sahel....Another fact is that these Berber rulers would recruit black slaves since they have no loyalty other than to him kinda like what the Ottomans did with white Christian slaves found in Balkans (Jannisarries)

Okay, in your opinion what West Africans did those Berbers have as slaves? Curious. As most West Africans at the time were Muslim. We do we not see significant amount of West African admixture in Berbers today? More importantly West African powers like Ghana and Mali aided those Berbers in their invasion as they were invading Non-Muslim lands(Europe). There is no evidence that the bulk of them were slaves(when the Western Sudan in terms of geopolitics was much stronger).

At one point this black guard in Morroco had around 150,000 W.African men at its peak.That just speaks to the scale/volume of the slave trade in NW Africa from West Africa.This trade heavily impacted majority of the Maghreb genetically but I have no doubt before Islam Morocco would have been much lighter than they are today

This is nonsensical. You ignore the vast European slave trade that was much higher than the West African one. In fact some estimate in the MILLIONS. And can you link a source to the Black guards in Morocco?

L3 isn't even an SSA marker...

Then what is it?

 

[Grano-Grano]

My cousins the Berbers enslaved cacs

 

[MoroccanBoy]

My cousins the Berbers enslaved cacs

I am a berber

 

[Grano-Grano]

I am a berber

I know bro. All my Maghrebi nikkas are the realest in the field. As a Somali, I fukk with y'all.

 

[Grano-Grano]

When cacs try to classify Horners and Berbers as cacs to hide the historical Ls they took from nikkas.

How we cacs, when our Y-DNA is indigenous to the land.

E-M215 (e1b1b) greatest lineage

 

[6ixSideSavage]

Of course there were no such thing as "Black Berbers." Because terms such as "black" were not used. But there was a such thing as "Moor."

No such thing as Moor....and I highly you can find the word Moor among Arabic and North African sources in their original language which i doubt you could even read....
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

890 –“The Kabyles or Kabaily of Algerian and Tunisian territories…besides tillage, work the mines contained in their mountains…They live in huts made of branches of trees and covered with clay which resemble the Magalia of the old Numidians…They are of middle stature, their complexion brown and sometimes nearly black.” Written in The Encyclopedia Britannica: Dictionary of Arts, Sciences and General Literature Henry G. Allen Company p. 261 Volume I 1890.

Ancient DNA & primary sources > Opinion of a white Englishman

I know there were pale skinned Berbers like we see today but the bulk of them came after the expulsion of European Muslims from Southern Europe and European slaves. Just look at their maternal DNA.

Modern North Africans are very similiar to their Ancient ancestors and havent changed much untill the Islamic age just like the rest of the MENA region

Check this study out and you will notice that North Africans primarily descend from a mixture of Early & Late Neolithic populations with the latter bringing more "European-like" mtdna https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...1/191569?rss=1

So there goes your claim of "whiteness" being something new

But on the other hand is a recorded fact that Islam made the entire MENA region and even parts of S.Asia more SSA with all that slave trading just compare an Egyptian Copt to an Egyptian Muslim

Punt K12 of an Ancient Egyptian

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 42.08
2 Near_East 31.25
3 Caucasus_HG 22.26
4 South_African_HG 2.40
5 European_HG 2.00

Copt

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 40.28
2 Near_East 32.73
3 Caucasus_HG 16.72
4 Sub-Saharan 7.45
5 South_African_HG 1.50
6 Siberian 1.32

Muslim

1 Anatolian_NF 29.65
2 Near_East 22.48
3 Caucasus_HG 21.99
4 Sub-Saharan 17.2
5 European_HG 3.83

But anyways in the sources I posted the writers clearly describe Berber groups like the Masmuda and others as "black" in appearances.

Chechens are considered "Black" in Russia..skin color can vary according to one's perspective..but one thing is for sure is that Berbers like Zidane (who is Kabilye) have been in the Maghreb far longer than anyone of those West African looking folks.

I KNOW that. But what I am saying is that the majority of slaves did not go to the Trans Sahara route as it was risky.
"Except for the Zandj (black slaves) from lower Iraq, no large body of blacks historically linked to the trans-Saharan slave trade existed anywhere in the Arab world ...The high costs of slaves, because of the risks inherent in the desert crossing, which would have not permitted such a massive exodus ... In this connection, it is significant that in the Arabic iconography of the period, the slave merchant was often depicted as a man with a hole in his purse. Until the Crusades the Muslim world drew its slaves from two main sources: Eastern and Central Europe (Slavs) and Turkestan. The Sudan only came third. " - Africa from the Seventh to Eleventh Century, UNESCO, 1988

Most slaves found in the eastern part of the Muslim world did not go through that route so you are correct but majority of those found in North Africa were West Africans whether you want to accept it or not is entirely up to you

Okay, in your opinion what West Africans did those Berbers have as slaves? Curious. As most West Africans at the time were Muslim. We do we not see significant amount of West African admixture in Berbers today? More importantly West African powers like Ghana and Mali aided those Berbers in their invasion as they were invading Non-Muslim lands(Europe). There is no evidence that the bulk of them were slaves(when the Western Sudan in terms of geopolitics was much stronger).

Berbers bought them off the Muslim West Africans just like the Europeans did....

This is nonsensical. You ignore the vast European slave trade that was much higher than the West African one. In fact some estimate in the MILLIONS. And can you link a source to the Black guards in Morocco?

SSA slave trade was far larger especially since female black slaves were the cheapest which meant they were more accessible to majority of the population which is why SSA blood increased heavily during the medieval ages.

Whites female slaves were for the aristocrats since they could only afford them and majority were sent to the Ottomans and the Levant.Another point I have to include is that the European slave trade was far shorter than the African slave trade which began as soon Arabs set themselves up as the ruling class in the North and later on when Yemeni tribes arrived.

Black Guard - Wikipedia

Then what is it?

It's a NE African haplogroup and the forbearer to the M & N that went on to populate Eurasia

 

[6ixSideSavage]

When cacs try to classify Horners and Berbers as cacs to hide the historical Ls they took from nikkas.

How we cacs, when our Y-DNA is indigenous to the land.

E-M215 (e1b1b) greatest lineage

I don't know what E-M215 could have looked like but I have no doubt that E-M78 & M35 were Caucasian in physical morphology as majority of their descendants are Eurasian or heavily admixed with Eurasians in terms of autosomal make up

 

[Grano-Grano]

I don't know what E-M215 could have looked like but I have no doubt that E-M78 & M35 were Caucasian in physical morphology as majority of their descendants are Eurasian or heavily admixed with Eurasians in terms of autosomal make up

I'm not a cac nor do I have cac features. It's the other way around my nikka

 

[MoroccanBoy]

When cacs try to classify Horners and Berbers as cacs to hide the historical Ls they took from nikkas.

How we cacs, when our Y-DNA is indigenous to the land.

E-M215 (e1b1b) greatest lineage

Some of these ignorant Americans on here calling me a sandcac and they think morocco is just purely an arab country

 

[6ixSideSavage]

I'm not a cac nor do I have cac features. It's the other way around my nikka

What the hell are you talking about?

cac? cac features?

I was speaking about the original carriers of E-M78..

 

[Grano-Grano]

What the hell are you talking about?

cac? cac features?

I was speaking about the original carriers of E-M78..

Maybe. That comment seemed a lil to me.

 

[Grano-Grano]

Some of these ignorant Americans on here calling me a sandcac and they think morocco is just purely an arab country

AmeriCacs are too stupid to differentiate religion and ethnicity bro. fukking Ghouzos

 

[6ixSideSavage]

Maybe. That comment seemed a lil to me.

I bet speaking about T-M70 somalis and our Eurasian admixture would have you triggered af

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Here we go again...

@Gebor I know you're Tuareg/Berber. But if you still come on here I want you to add your viewpoint.

No such thing as Moor....and I highly you can find the word Moor among Arabic and North African sources in their original language which i doubt you could even read....
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor

How does this even deflate what I posted? No duh "Moor" was not a Berber or Arab word. Point is they were described as "black" by both Europeans and Middle Easterners.

Ancient DNA & primary sources > Opinion of a white Englishman

I posted a combination of primary sources and academic sources. Ancient DNA too correlates with what I am saying but I'll get to that later.

Modern North Africans are very similiar to their Ancient ancestors and havent changed much untill the Islamic age just like the rest of the MENA region

Oh really? Thoughts on this study?

"The trans-Saharan gold and salt trade as well as the trans-Saharan slave trade played an important role in population movements connecting sub-Saharan and Mediterranean economies during the Middle Ages. The slave trade alone is said to have transported more than 9 million slave soldiers and domestic servants along the trans-Saharan route. In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa. In fact, the most parsimonious way to model them genetically is as two-source admixture between Mediterranean Europeans and Southern Africans. The lack of archaeological context of the two individuals opens up various alternatives to explain their genomic pattern. Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin. The Arab slave trade extended over a longer period and may have involved more slaves than its transatlantic counterpart and our data might provide the first genetic insight into this historical process and the people who suffered in it. Our results highlight how archaeogenetic research can shed lights into historical events and long-distance population movements while opening new questions for the interpretation of the data."

Oral Presentation — ASN Events

Check this study out and you will notice that North Africans primarily descend from a mixture of Early & Late Neolithic populations with the latter bringing more "European-like" mtdna https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...1/191569?rss=1

Already seen that study and its not saying what you think its saying. You missed the discussion on FBD. We already know Northwest Africa received back migration. But when looking at their MtDNA we know most of it is recent. Plus those people would later be absorbed by Northeast African pastoralist.

So there goes your claim of "whiteness" being something new

But on the other hand is a recorded fact that Islam made the entire MENA region and even parts of S.Asia more SSA with all that slave trading just compare an Egyptian Copt to an Egyptian Muslim

Punt K12 of an Ancient Egyptian

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 42.08
2 Near_East 31.25
3 Caucasus_HG 22.26
4 South_African_HG 2.40
5 European_HG 2.00

Copt

# Population Percent
1 Anatolian_NF 40.28
2 Near_East 32.73
3 Caucasus_HG 16.72
4 Sub-Saharan 7.45
5 South_African_HG 1.50
6 Siberian 1.32

Muslim

1 Anatolian_NF 29.65
2 Near_East 22.48
3 Caucasus_HG 21.99
4 Sub-Saharan 17.2
5 European_HG 3.83

What does the Abusir mummies have to do with anything?

Chechens are considered "Black" in Russia..skin color can vary according to one's perspective..but one thing is for sure is that Berbers like Zidane (who is Kabilye) have been in the Maghreb far longer than anyone of those West African looking folks.

Are the Chechens described as "black as night?" if not then bringing them up is moot.

Most slaves found in the eastern part of the Muslim world did not go through that route so you are correct but majority of those found in North Africa were West Africans whether you want to accept it or not is entirely up to you




Berbers bought them off the Muslim West Africans just like the Europeans did....


SSA slave trade was far larger especially since female black slaves were the cheapest which meant they were more accessible to majority of the population which is why SSA blood increased heavily during the medieval ages.

Whites female slaves were for the aristocrats since they could only afford them and majority were sent to the Ottomans and the Levant.Another point I have to include is that the European slave trade was far shorter than the African slave trade which began as soon Arabs set themselves up as the ruling class in the North and later on when Yemeni tribes arrived.

Black Guard - Wikipedia

No I accept that but do you accept this????

By 1614 every last Morisco was gone, and Islam disappeared from the Iberian Peninsula. Going from over 500,000 people to zero in 100 years can only be described as a genocide. Indeed, the Portuguese Dominican monk, Damian Fonseca, referred to the expulsion as an “agreeable Holocaust”. The effects on Spain were grave. Its economy suffered greatly, as a large part of the labor force was gone, and tax revenues dropped. In North Africa, Muslim rulers attempted to provide for the hundreds of thousands of refugees, but in many cases, were unable to do much to help them. The Moriscos of North Africa spent centuries trying to assimilate into society, but still kept their unique Andalusian identity.

To this day, neighborhoods in major North African cities boast of their Morisco identities and keep alive the memory of Muslim Spain’s glorious past. They remind us of the illustrious history of the Iberian Peninsula, as well the tragic story of their expulsion from their homes in the one of the greatest genocides Europe has ever seen.

Spain’s Forgotten Muslims – The Expulsion of the Moriscos


A million Europeans enslaved

An American historian says that more than a million Europeans were enslaved by North African slave traders between 1530 and 1780, a time of vigorous Mediterranean and Atlantic coastal piracy.


The number of white European slaves is only a fraction of the trade that brought 10 million to 12 million black African slaves to the Americas over a 400-year period, historian Robert Davis says, but his research shows the slave trade was more widespread than commonly assumed. The impact on Europe’s white population was significant.

“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature — that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” said Mr. Davis, an Ohio State University professor.

“Enslavement was a very real possibility for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland.”

In a new book, “Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800,” Mr. Davis calculates that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates called “corsairs” and forced to work in North Africa during that period.

The raids were so aggressive that entire Mediterranean seaside towns were abandoned by frightened residents. “Much of what has been written gives the impression that there were not many slaves and minimizes the impact that slavery had on Europe.

“Most accounts only look at slavery in one place, or only for a short period of time. But when you take a broader, longer view, the massive scope of this slavery and its powerful impact become clear.”

The pirates, sailing from such cities as Tunis and Algiers, raided ships in the Mediterranean and Atlantic as well as seaside villages to capture men, women and children, he says. They were put to work in quarries, in heavy construction and as oarsmen in the pirates’ galleys.

Mr. Davis calculated his estimates using records that indicate how many slaves were at a particular location at a single time. He then estimated how many new slaves it would take to replace slaves as they died, escaped or were ransomed.

“It is not the best way to make population estimates, but it is the only way with the limited records available.”

A million Europeans enslaved

It seems the people who talk about NW Africa demographic history NEVER bring that up. Also as far as the Black Guards read your sources and look at the date. 1672–1727 thats late as hell and way after the Moors. Second your source does not even specifically mention blacks as slaves. You forgot to read this part...

The Black Guard descended from tribes of the south brought to Morocco from southern Africa, who were settled with their families in a special colonies, at Mechra er-Remel, to have children and to work as indentured servants.[1] At age 10, they were trained in certain skills; the girls in domestic life or entertainments, and the boys in masonry, archery, horsemanship, and musketry. At age 15 those that were chosen entered the army. They would marry and have children and continue the cycle.[1] Considered more loyal than Arab or Berber warriors because of their lack of tribal affiliation, Ismail's black soldiers formed the bulk of his standing army and numbered 150,000 at their peak.[1][2]

From what I am getting they seemed to have been indentured servants. Either way their numbers were not larger than Europeans. Either way your source also mentions Europeans as slaves.

The Black Guard were mainly in charge of collecting taxes and patrolling Morocco's unstable countryside; they crushed rebellions against Ismail's rule not only by dissident tribes but also by Ismail's seditious sons, who defected from service as his provincial governors to insurrection as would-be usurpers of his throne. The Black guard were the personal guard and servants of Sultan Ismail, they might have also participated in campaigns against the European-controlled fortress enclaves dotting his empire's coast (such as Tangier, taken over after the English withdrew from it and distressed it in 1684 in response), although tasks of this kind were often allocated to European slaves (called Aluj Arabic: العلوج‎‎ plural of Alj, meaning "white christian slave") and loyal Moroccan tribal soldiers, considered more military and cavalry-able. They were well-respected, well paid, and politically powerful. Around 1697-1698 they were even given the right to possess property.[1]

It's a NE African haplogroup and the forbearer to the M & N that went on to populate Eurasia

But those carriers were hunter gatherers and Sub Saharan Africans. They seemed to have lived near the Ethiopian/South Sudan border. Feel free to correct me.