I never saw Michael Jordan play in his prime....

[Danny Up]

Kobe is better than Jordan ever was. LeBron is better than them both

 

[Lakerman0834]

stolen from another forum but its pretty on the point

Arguing Kobe vs Lebron is tantamount to arguing about Science vs the Arts. Like arguing about a quadratic equation vs Raphael's "Scuola di Atene", physics vs philosophy etc.

Lebron has the stats, (hard data) on his side. His approach to the game is based largely on that. He plays the percentages, shoots from only places where he knows his % are highest. Cares deeply about data (stat line). His game is ugly. His footwork is ugly, his shot is ugly. (Though his passing is beautiful). But extremely effective and efficient. According to certain metrics, historically efficient.

Kobe is an artist. His game is a thing of beauty. Impeccable footwork, beautiful release on his shot, seemingly preternatural body control. But like most art, the beauty of his game can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be ugly, raw and misunderstood. But when it's displayed in it's full aesthetic potential, it's marvelous. Unparalleled even. Historically so.

For many years now basketball has been viewed as more of an art form where skill was placed on the highest pedestal. That's why a guy like Shaq who was devastatingly effective was looked down upon by past great bigmen like Wilt and Kareem. His game was ugly to them. Not viewed as skillful or aesthetically pleasing enough. And that's why for many years Kobe was more appreciated by people and looked at as the pinnacle of the post Jordan era by so many players past and present.

During the Lebron era things have changed. Stat geeks have gained considerable influence thanks to the efforts of guys like Darryl Morey and John Hollinger. PER, win shares and other metrics are given higher value then the platitudes often associated with the art/skill based view of the "old NBA". Basketball is being played and viewed through the lens of "science" now. Thus a player like Kobe is often dismissed as inefficient with a high "usage rating" etc, thus his value drops in such a view of basketball, while Lebron's value has skyrocketed.

 

[gho3st]

You mean to tell me if you could go back in time and get 06 Kobe (35 ppg,81 pts) on a team with 2 top 15 players it wouldn't be an automatic chip?

funny how miami heat niccas ignore that Dwayne Wade on this current Heat was better than Pau Gasol in all those three years that Lakers went to 3 str8 finals.
If Kobe had a decent reliable 2nd option between 05-07 Lakers win at least one championship.

 

[28 Gramz]

funny how miami heat niccas ignore that Dwayne Wade on this current Heat was better than Pau Gasol in all those three years that Lakers went to 3 str8 finals.
If Kobe had a decent reliable 2nd option between 05-07 Lakers win at least one championship.

Pau was pretty much a Chris Bosh back then. Lebron has that plus the 3rd GOAT shooting guard at his disposal, but Kobe gets shyt for playin on a "stacked" team in 08-09.

 

[28 Gramz]

Kobe is better than Jordan ever was. LeBron is better than them both

That must be you in that avi.

 

[Taadow]

I didn't read most of this thread (and I won't), but if you thought watching Kobe Bryant play basketball was "fun" then I cry for your childhood/life experiences that shape your idea of merriment.

I doubt Kobe Bryant even has fun playing basketball...he seems quite the surly character. So did Micheal Jordan at times, but at least he looked like he had fun on the court...

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

You mean to tell me if you could go back in time and get 06 Kobe (35 ppg,81 pts) on a team with 2 top 15 players it wouldn't be an automatic chip?

you think Kobe would have the freedom to shoot the ball 27 times a game if he played with two top 15 players? His usage rate would be way down. He shot 45% from the field that year. If his shots were down in the 18 range like Bron's have been since he joined the Heat, he'd average like 10 less points a game than he did that year if usage rate is taken into account.



current Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender, more efficient scorer, more efficient 3 point shooter, and far more versatile on either end of the floor than any version of Kobe we've ever seen... I don't see how any of those things can be debated.

What does a prime Kobe do better than current Lebron? Something that you can actually quantify, not "his game was prettier to watch on TV". Take and make difficult shots at a pathetic percentage simply because Lebron knows better than to chuck up stupid shots? Make free throws? Ball hog in the 4th quarter?

 

[FTBS]

stolen from another forum but its pretty on the point

Arguing Kobe vs Lebron is tantamount to arguing about Science vs the Arts. Like arguing about a quadratic equation vs Raphael's "Scuola di Atene", physics vs philosophy etc.

Lebron has the stats, (hard data) on his side. His approach to the game is based largely on that. He plays the percentages, shoots from only places where he knows his % are highest. Cares deeply about data (stat line). His game is ugly. His footwork is ugly, his shot is ugly. (Though his passing is beautiful). But extremely effective and efficient. According to certain metrics, historically efficient.

Kobe is an artist. His game is a thing of beauty. Impeccable footwork, beautiful release on his shot, seemingly preternatural body control. But like most art, the beauty of his game can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be ugly, raw and misunderstood. But when it's displayed in it's full aesthetic potential, it's marvelous. Unparalleled even. Historically so.

For many years now basketball has been viewed as more of an art form where skill was placed on the highest pedestal. That's why a guy like Shaq who was devastatingly effective was looked down upon by past great bigmen like Wilt and Kareem. His game was ugly to them. Not viewed as skillful or aesthetically pleasing enough. And that's why for many years Kobe was more appreciated by people and looked at as the pinnacle of the post Jordan era by so many players past and present.

During the Lebron era things have changed. Stat geeks have gained considerable influence thanks to the efforts of guys like Darryl Morey and John Hollinger. PER, win shares and other metrics are given higher value then the platitudes often associated with the art/skill based view of the "old NBA". Basketball is being played and viewed through the lens of "science" now. Thus a player like Kobe is often dismissed as inefficient with a high "usage rating" etc, thus his value drops in such a view of basketball, while Lebron's value has skyrocketed.

So "hard data" such as 81 pts, 5 rings, 30,000 pts etc. isn't regularly used in Kobe's favor? People who like efficiency and unselfish all around play lean towards Bron. People who like one on one play, scoring, drama lean towards Kobe.

Pau was pretty much a Chris Bosh back then. Lebron has that plus the 3rd GOAT shooting guard at his disposal, but Kobe gets shyt for playin on a "stacked" team in 08-09.

Kobe gets more shyt for playing with Shaq than Pau and co. And let's not act like Bron didn't catch more than his fair share of shyt for playing with Wade. If nikkas didn't resort to lazy "Who has more rings" analysis, there would be no reason for people to even discuss teammates like that.

 

[Absolut da poet ®]

What's better about my generation is not only did I go to school
And watch Kobe play high school games

I also got to see Dr. J choke out L.Bird

Michael Jordan define greatness and defy gravity at the same damn time

Allen Iverson break MJs ankles

Reggie Miller do the impossible to the Knicks

Larry Johnson from the running rebels to my favorite Knick all time

my generation is still the GOAT

One day they'll say LeBron is the best ever.. Lol

Reality is There is no best player ever only a top level which right now has many players on it

 

[mistergarrison]

Not to take anything away from Kobe, He's an all time great.
The vibe was different with MJ.
The aura of invincibility was real with Jordan in the 90's.
We just all knew he was gonna take over and win.
The respect he got from his peers and the fans were on a different level.

If I could describe his presence on the court with smileys it would look like this.

How could u forget

 

[scarhead]

How could u forget

I thought about it but when I look back it was a whole lot more like
than .

 

[Swagnificent]

stolen from another forum but its pretty on the point

Arguing Kobe vs Lebron is tantamount to arguing about Science vs the Arts. Like arguing about a quadratic equation vs Raphael's "Scuola di Atene", physics vs philosophy etc.

Lebron has the stats, (hard data) on his side. His approach to the game is based largely on that. He plays the percentages, shoots from only places where he knows his % are highest. Cares deeply about data (stat line). His game is ugly. His footwork is ugly, his shot is ugly. (Though his passing is beautiful). But extremely effective and efficient. According to certain metrics, historically efficient.

Kobe is an artist. His game is a thing of beauty. Impeccable footwork, beautiful release on his shot, seemingly preternatural body control. But like most art, the beauty of his game can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be ugly, raw and misunderstood. But when it's displayed in it's full aesthetic potential, it's marvelous. Unparalleled even. Historically so.

For many years now basketball has been viewed as more of an art form where skill was placed on the highest pedestal. That's why a guy like Shaq who was devastatingly effective was looked down upon by past great bigmen like Wilt and Kareem. His game was ugly to them. Not viewed as skillful or aesthetically pleasing enough. And that's why for many years Kobe was more appreciated by people and looked at as the pinnacle of the post Jordan era by so many players past and present.

During the Lebron era things have changed. Stat geeks have gained considerable influence thanks to the efforts of guys like Darryl Morey and John Hollinger. PER, win shares and other metrics are given higher value then the platitudes often associated with the art/skill based view of the "old NBA". Basketball is being played and viewed through the lens of "science" now. Thus a player like Kobe is often dismissed as inefficient with a high "usage rating" etc, thus his value drops in such a view of basketball, while Lebron's value has skyrocketed.

Don't agree with this. The fallacy in dude's argument is he assumes that the stats we have are all encompassing and can accurately gauge the value/impact of a player. Different teams run different systems and different team guard different players in different ways. This is why a straight look down the stat sheet don't really tell you much if you didn't watch the game to see how the stats were achieved.

I'll point you to Kobe's recent streak. He's been averaging like 35/7/7 the past 8 games. He isn't averaging all these assists because he learned to pass better this year. The reason he's getting more assists is because for the first time in his career he's playing point guard in a traditional pick and roll offense.

If you watched the game against the Bulls today, you'd see Kobe was basically playing how LeBron has played his entire career. Pick and roll from the top of the key with shooters spacing the floor. This type of offense allows the person running point to amass lots of assists and points based on whether the defense tries to stop you from going to the bucket or stays home on the shooters.

The triangle offense on the other hand was played mostly out of the post and usually it was the second pass that led to the assists rather than the primary pass. Thats why Kobe's assist numbers were deflated during his years in the triangle. It wasn't because he was more selfish or he didn't know how to pass. It was simply different offenses. Doing a side by side of stats based on players in different offenses will NOT lead to a scientifically accurate assessment of their value/impact against one another. Thus I reject the argument that science shows LeBron to be better. I think a truly scientific assessment of players value vis a vis one another is not possible in basketball right now because we don't have the capabilities to make comparisons between players in different offenses like I showed.

My argument isn't that Kobe is scientifically be more impactful than LeBron. My argument is simply that current statistical analysis are not proof enough that LeBron can scientifically be proven to be more impactful than Kobe. He might be. The current stuff just isn't sufficient to make that claim.

 

[Swagnificent]

I didn't read most of this thread (and I won't), but if you thought watching Kobe Bryant play basketball was "fun" then I cry for your childhood/life experiences that shape your idea of merriment.

I doubt Kobe Bryant even has fun playing basketball...he seems quite the surly character. So did Micheal Jordan at times, but at least he looked like he had fun on the court...

what does dude smiling have to do with whether his game is fun to watch

Kobe is the most exciting player because he does the most impossible moves and hits the most miraculous shots as evidenced by his game against the Raptors

that was a finish that no one else in the NBA is capable of and in the history of the game maybe only Michael could have done the same

that is why I said he's fun to watch.....not because I care whether he's having fun on the court

 

[bzb]

Kobe is better than Jordan ever was. LeBron is better than them both

 

[Still Benefited]

Lotta jumping over flabby nikkas,making slow white boys look dumb effortlessy....you didnt miss much