Holy Cannoli! We’re On The Strive For Five! The Dynasty Rolls On! Golden State Warriors 2022-23 Season Thread

[Chabot College]

I still don't get the level of hate on Wiseman. With young players focus on the positives and hope to see improvement on the negatives through the season as they get more playing time and experience. Wiseman showed a good touch on the mid-range. He did a better job of setting screens last night. Showed he can run the floor and possibly get easy baskets with his athleticism. Defensively he's lost but at least he realizes he's fukking up and appears to care. It takes a long time to rid the bad habits of trying to block everything. Also doesn't help playing so much of his time with Poole who is also bad defensively and Moody who is young and learning.

Facts, I stopped debating with Wiseman haters because its clearly an agenda on this forum. It would be one thing if they discussed the good and bad plays from the entire team but they only focus on Wiseman. No one on this forum has talked about Donte being a turnstile on defense or the extremely underwhelming play of Kuminga even when Wiseman isnt on the floor.

There was actually a stretch in the first half when the Wiseman minutes were exciting, shyt didnt start hitting the fan until Kuminga entered the game into the Wiseman lineup.

 

[SCORCH]

 

[Numpsay]

The Kings scored 125 points in regulation. Wiseman played 19 minutes. The entire team got lit up.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

whoa, easy on the Loon slander. Loon is a legit NBA player. He doesnt stand out but he can defend/switch very well, he can rebound, he can screen, he can make the right pass, and he has high BBIQ. He's definitely not a fringe player. Theres a reason why he's always leading in team +/-

but i agree with everything else. the FO is pushing its luck really hard. Jordan looked amazing with and w/o steph last season. and Kuminga was literally torching everyone whenever he got more 15 mins+ of playing time. Even Jimmy Butler, an All-defensive wing, had issues defending him I wonder if playing a lineup that does nothing but spam PnR between 2 players, while turning the other 3 players into spectators is helping or hurting them...

Oh, it's definitely not slander.

Looney is one of my guys; I love how he's managed to carve out a role for himself, and his play was instrumental in them winning last season. I remember speaking about it at the time of how important he was, and I hoped that he would've got paid by some team off the back of it. But in terms of actual talent, yeah, he's certainly below-average, and would struggle to crack the rotation and get meaningful minutes on other teams in the playoff hunt.

That's just the reality of it.

And that goes for a lot of the players on the roster last season.

- GP2 would likely still be stuck in the G-League instead of parlaying his performance last season into a new contract in Portland
- DLee would be babysitting for Steph instead of hitting game-winners with the Suns
- Bjelica is playing in Turkey
- JTA got himself a spot on the Lakers
- Otto got himself a new contract in Toronto after being on death's door.

It's still crazy to think what the Warriors had to go through last season, with the roster they had, and came out the other side victorious.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

The Kings scored 125 points in regulation. Wiseman played 19 minutes. The entire team got lit up.

The Lakers went 6 out of 9 from the field against Wiseman (which was the highest rate any Warriors player gave up)
The Nuggets went 5 out of 8 from the field against Wiseman (which again, was the highest rate any Warriors player gave up).

 

[Don Homer]

Oh, it's definitely not slander.

Looney is one of my guys; I love how he's managed to carve out a role for himself, and his play was instrumental in them winning last season. I remember speaking about it at the time of how important he was, and I hoped that he would've got paid by some team off the back of it. But in terms of actual talent, yeah, he's certainly below-average, and would struggle to crack the rotation and get meaningful minutes on other teams in the playoff hunt.

That's just the reality of it.

And that goes for a lot of the players on the roster last season.

- GP2 would likely still be stuck in the G-League instead of parlaying his performance last season into a new contract in Portland
- DLee would be babysitting for Steph instead of hitting game-winners with the Suns
- Bjelica is playing in Turkey
- JTA got himself a spot on the Lakers
- Otto got himself a new contract in Toronto after being on death's door.

It's still crazy to think what the Warriors had to go through last season, with the roster they had, and came out the other side victorious.

i guess it wasnt a roster loaded with talent on paper. but everyone on that team starred in their roles. That was a 60+ win team if injuries didnt mess everything up. The same way the 2014 spurs were able to get 62 wins w/o a single 20ppg scorer, the 2022 warriors were clearly the best team when healthy 20 games into the season before injuries piled up

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Facts, I stopped debating with Wiseman haters because its clearly an agenda on this forum. It would be one thing if they discussed the good and bad plays from the entire team but they only focus on Wiseman. No one on this forum has talked about Donte being a turnstile on defense or the extremely underwhelming play of Kuminga even when Wiseman isnt on the floor.

There was actually a stretch in the first half when the Wiseman minutes were exciting, shyt didnt start hitting the fan until Kuminga entered the game into the Wiseman lineup.

- Donte is a role player, only signed as a stop-gap to take over GP2's role.
- Kuminga showed how great he was last season in almost every single situation he was put in.

It's patently ridiculous to compare either of them to someone who was drafted #2 overall, was projected to be the next generational big man, and the guy to lead this franchise into its next period of dominance. Yet here we are in his third season and we're still talking about how he can't set screens properly and being a complete liability on defense. The fact you're using an adjective of "exciting" for Wiseman tells me you're not seeing him for what he is, and you're blinded by a couple of rim-roll plays, which any big man could capitalize on, as some indication of him being something of worth.

And although it may not be your intention, you're throwing Kuminga under the bus in the process, when long before he was even on the team, Wiseman was stinking up every lineup he was in during his rookie season. We've seen what Kuminga is capable of when surrounded by like-minded personnel; we've seen how aggressive he is; we've seen his off-ball movement and sacrificing his body to stick to the principles of the system; we've seen how fluid the offense functions when he's put on the floor with players on the same time; we've seen him lock up all different types of players; we've seen him play with purpose and direction.

Nobody can say the same for Wiseman.

Of course, it's an agenda -- it's an agenda of trying to get folks like you to see what's actually happening, instead of sticking your head in the proverbial like the organization is doing. They're literally out there coddling his ass, purely running PnR and abandoning the system (which is partly the reason why those lineups are struggling to build any momentum). Even Steph made a joke out of it when asked if they were going to keep running PnR with Wiseman.

 

[Numpsay]

The Lakers went 6 out of 9 from the field against Wiseman (which was the highest rate any Warriors player gave up)
The Nuggets went 5 out of 8 from the field against Wiseman (which again, was the highest rate any Warriors player gave up).

Was this against his direct match up or nah?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Was this against his direct match up or nah?

All plays which are result of points being scored on him, whether that be his opposite, or on switches or on drives to the rim.

Now, it's important to note that not all those field goals are 100% his fault, or even caused directly by his efforts, they're just a general marker of the points he's given up, as they need to be contextualized with the corresponding clips.

But if you've watched the first three games (or any game he's played in), it doesn't take long to see how inept he is on that side of the floor: he bites on everything, he needs to be directed on where to go, he doesn't use his body/presence to deter players, he struggles to grab rebounds in traffic, he struggles to move laterally, he's soft when challenging in the paint, he doesn't make extra-effort plays, he provides low energy and he doesn't communicate.

He's like the opposite to Draymond, and the contrast is certainly even more glaring when they're subbed on/off.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I still don't get the level of hate on Wiseman. With young players focus on the positives and hope to see improvement on the negatives through the season as they get more playing time and experience. Wiseman showed a good touch on the mid-range. He did a better job of setting screens last night. Showed he can run the floor and possibly get easy baskets with his athleticism. Defensively he's lost but at least he realizes he's fukking up and appears to care. It takes a long time to rid the bad habits of trying to block everything. Also doesn't help playing so much of his time with Poole who is also bad defensively and Moody who is young and learning.

only way for him to improve is to get live game reps, if dude is still this horrendous defensively in March then it will be alarming but I'm not gonna freak out in game 3.

I mentioned this all the way back even before he was drafted -

Playing time, live game reps, experience etc do NOT change who you are.

By the time you're 21, the fabric of your mentality has been woven in and you can't unstitch it. He's a big whose development got fukked up along the way, because instead of playing like his size, he tries to operate like a wing/guard, hence why he's soft and tries to be finesse on offense (he actively avoids contact), and that is evident in how he approaches defense.

That's not going to change.

As opposed to someone like Kuminga, who from the moment he stepped on an NBA floor, showed the purpose and hunger to defend (it's why he's aggressive on offense). It's what stars are made of. You don't just suddenly develop a desire to play this way. You either have it or you don't.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Re: discussing the good/bad plays of his.

The good is only worth being discussed if it brings the bigger picture into frame, like showing urgency to rotate over and help a teammate or putting your body on the line to stop an uncontested shot at the rim, but it results in a foul. You'd focus on the good on that possession because despite a foul being called, that is the type of mentality that leads to being an effective defender. It's less about the direct result and more about what measures you take.

Those rim-roll plays for Wiseman aren't good.

They're plays in which nearly every legitimate sized-big can capitalize on, especially with the guards on this team. McGee was eating off those same looks when he was in GS. If Wiseman can only score when running down-hill on a PnR, what benefit does that have when it's at the sacrifice of the system and other players getting involved in the play? How are the players in those lineups supposed to touch the ball, build rhythm and have purpose on offense? How are the lineups supposed to generate consistent offense?

As I said above, he's being coddled out there on the floor. They're running all these PnRs for him when that's not how this team has been successful.

 

[Flight]

Only thing I’ll say is I do agree that playing JoKu with Wiseman is hurting JoKu. But the organization unfortunately has more invested in Wiseman…

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

There's no greater emphasis on that point than this team and turnovers.

Yes, turnovers are intrinsically bad, in a vacuum, but they're a natural cause of having all this ball and player movement. You live with those turnovers because the methodology of the offense is what works. If they opted to limit their turnovers and be more careful with the ball, they wouldn't generate all the open looks they do and the players would be less effective, resulting in a worse offense.

It's like the difference between CP3 and Steph. They're at opposite ends of the spectrum with how they approach offense, and look at how effective and successful one player has been in the playoffs, and compare it to the other.

That's why it's not about pointing out the good/bad as if it's some tally where you can say x-player had more good plays than bad ones. You point out what works, as everything else is a red herring.

 

[Chabot College]

- Donte is a role player, only signed as a stop-gap to take over GP2's role.
- Kuminga showed how great he was last season in almost every single situation he was put in.

It's patently ridiculous to compare either of them to someone who was drafted #2 overall, was projected to be the next generational big man, and the guy to lead this franchise into its next period of dominance. Yet here we are in his third season and we're still talking about how he can't set screens properly and being a complete liability on defense. The fact you're using an adjective of "exciting" for Wiseman tells me you're not seeing him for what he is, and you're blinded by a couple of rim-roll plays, which any big man could capitalize on, as some indication of him being something of worth.

And although it may not be your intention, you're throwing Kuminga under the bus in the process, when long before he was even on the team, Wiseman was stinking up every lineup he was in during his rookie season. We've seen what Kuminga is capable of when surrounded by like-minded personnel; we've seen how aggressive he is; we've seen his off-ball movement and sacrificing his body to stick to the principles of the system; we've seen how fluid the offense functions when he's put on the floor with players on the same time; we've seen him lock up all different types of players; we've seen him play with purpose and direction.

Nobody can say the same for Wiseman.

Of course, it's an agenda -- it's an agenda of trying to get folks like you to see what's actually happening, instead of sticking your head in the proverbial like the organization is doing. They're literally out there coddling his ass, purely running PnR and abandoning the system (which is partly the reason why those lineups are struggling to build any momentum). Even Steph made a joke out of it when asked if they were going to keep running PnR with Wiseman.

Doesn’t matter if Donte is a role player, he averages around the same amount of minutes as Wiseman. They are both in role player positions right now. If Donte is getting cooked on defense and being indecisive on offense then that affects the outcome of games just as much as Wiseman’s flaws do.

The point of bringing up Kuminga wasn’t to throw him under the bus, I was making the correlation that I can nitpick Kumingas flaws after every game the same way you do to Wiseman if I had an agenda to do so. I can nitpick Poole still being a net negative on defense. I can nitpick Klay being a black hole and killing drives.

Wiseman is NOT off limits to criticism it just gets corny when the entire team is making mistakes but 90% of the post game discussion is about Wiseman.

 

[Mortal1]

Definitely agree with the points on the young guys.