historicity of jesus

intilectual recipricol

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Exactly. If he did not exist, there would be NO documentation whatsoever from any Roman/non-Christian/Jewish sources.

You have now refuted your own argument.

:ufdup:

no you still have it wrong. There was nothing to refute. The docs didnt even come about for 50 years after this supposed death. There would be nothing to refute at the time. Also it makes sense that if youre going to build a lie you would do it away from the people who know the lie... like 50 years later.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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intilectual recipricol said:
no you still have it wrong. There was nothing to refute. The docs didnt even come about for 50 years after this supposed death. There would be nothing to refute at the time. Also it makes sense that if youre going to build a lie you would do it away from the people who know the lie... like 50 years later.

Now you're just copping pleas to save your dead argument. 50 years is not long enough for any myths to creep into any historical narrative and there would still be living witnesses to expose it since every witness to those events didn't just happen to die conveniently before they were written. A 20-year old witness would be 70. Mark was written 30 years after the fact.

Jews didn't like Jesus. Romans didn't care for him. Neither of them have ANY documentation that states he did not exist in the 1st Century and they were there.

Your argument is refuted.

:ufdup:
 

intilectual recipricol

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Now you're just copping pleas to save your dead argument. 50 years is not long enough for any myths to creep into any historical narrative and there would still be living witnesses to expose it since every witness to those events didn't just happen to die conveniently before they were written. A 20-year old witness would be 70. Mark was written 30 years after the fact.

Jews didn't like Jesus. Romans didn't care for him. Neither of them have ANY documentation that states he did not exist in the 1st Century and they were there.

Your argument is refuted.

:ufdup:

:laff:

sure buddy. Notice how you didnt post any evidence for jesus. None.
 

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intilectual recipricol said:
:laff:

sure buddy. Notice how you didnt post any evidence for jesus. None.

Notice how I destroyed your initial claim......

The fact remains that there is ZERO evidence of this Jesus character's existence outside of Biblical and Koranic accounts.

You've been attempting to move the goalpost ever since and failing miserably.

There is ZERO evidence that he was 'created' as a myth and did not exist when there should be from Roman and Jewish sources who were there and witnessed the whole thing.

You question the sources that are available within 30-60 years after the event, but then proceed to use arguments that weren't created until 1800 years later based on those SAME sources........:stopitslime:

Your argument is refuted, lacks evidence and is utterly ridiculous.

:ufdup:
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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intilectual recipricol said:
Roman historians that documented Jesus also documented Hercules...

They were also careful to make sure that what they stated was NOT to be taken as factual......

They say that Hercules, too, once visited them; and when going into battle, they sing of him first of all heroes. They have also those songs of theirs, by the recital of which ("baritus," they call it), they rouse their courage, while from the note they augur the result of the approaching conflict. For, as their line shouts, they inspire or feel alarm. It is not so much an articulate sound, as a general cry of valour. They aim chiefly at a harsh note and a confused roar, putting their shields to their mouth, so that, by reverberation, it may swell into a fuller and deeper sound. Ulysses, too, is believed by some, in his long legendary wanderings, to have found his way into this ocean, and, having visited German soil, to have founded and named the town of Asciburgium, which stands on the bank of the Rhine, and is to this day inhabited. They even say that an altar dedicated to Ulysses, with the addition of the name of his father, Laertes, was formerly discovered on this same spot, and that certain monuments and tombs, with Greek inscriptions, still exist on the borders of Germany and Rhaetia. These statements I have no intention of sustaining by proofs, or of refuting; every one may believe or disbelieve them as he feels inclines.

~Tacitus, Germania Book 3.

intilectual recipricol said:
Josephus' doc is a known fraud.

Then why do you keep referring to it? A fraudulent document doesn't prove Jesus didn't exist.

intilectual recipricol said:
And Tacitus was AFTER the time period....

This objection has no bearing on the validity of a historic figure's existence whatsoever. Also, Tacitus' contemporaries would have published rebuttals to any of his claims that were NOT historically accurate. Where they at?

Cant prove a negative, come on you should be better than that.

Bullshyt. I can prove Santa Clause doesn't exist quite easily with evidence. Where is your evidence to support your claim that Jesus didn't exist?

:popcorn:
 

IVS

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The Mystery Man of the Bible by Hilton Hotema is a good read if you would like to know about Hesus, the Druidic order and its connection to Christianity.
 

rapbeats

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Jesus is suppose to have been around the time of Augustus. And no one from that time writes about a man coming back to life.
actually thats a lie. people did write about it. you just choose to ignore their writings(THE BIBLE).

see you cant say, but but i dont see any writings. and when shown writings you say but but thats not real. OHHHH K then. end of discussion. you already made your point. you REFUSE to believe Jesus existed.

but here ya go, food for thought. even though we know the entire reason for this thread is to discredit. not to actually locate info. when you start a thought off with "i'm trying to discredit" vs "i'm trying to find the truth". you will always lean towards the discrediting side of things. You have a bias.

READ IT ALL.

Question: "Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: Typically, when this question is asked, the person asking qualifies the question with “outside of the Bible.” We do not grant this idea that the Bible cannot be considered a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus. The New Testament contains hundreds of references to Jesus Christ. There are those who date the writing of the Gospels to the second century A.D., more than 100 years after Jesus' death. Even if this were the case (which we strongly dispute), in terms of ancient evidences, writings less than 200 years after events took place are considered very reliable evidences. Further, the vast majority of scholars (Christian and non-Christian) will grant that the Epistles of Paul (at least some of them) were in fact written by Paul in the middle of the first century A.D., less than 40 years after Jesus' death. In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D.

It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.

Considering that Jesus' ministry was largely confined to a relatively unimportant area in a small corner of the Roman Empire, a surprising amount of information about Jesus can be drawn from secular historical sources. Some of the more important historical evidences of Jesus include the following:

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
 

Bud Bundy

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actually thats a lie. people did write about it. you just choose to ignore their writings(THE BIBLE).

see you cant say, but but i dont see any writings. and when shown writings you say but but thats not real. OHHHH K then. end of discussion. you already made your point. you REFUSE to believe Jesus existed.

so the bible that was written down 100 years after jesus. :lupe:
 

Bud Bundy

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i know darn well you didnt read the above that fast. stop being lazy and stop rush replying.
READ.

yet again the historians who mentioned jesus were written down after jesus.

why wouldn't these historians hear of christians that cult was around and was getting bigger what with being fed to lions and all.

also all of them were born after the cruxfication with the exception of Thallus but his was work was interpreted by julius Africanus and all he quotes Thallus as saying that a eclipse happened at the time of jesus death.

please just don't copy and paste but do your own research.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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IVS said:
The Mystery Man of the Bible by Hilton Hotema is a good read if you would like to know about Hesus, the Druidic order and its connection to Christianity.

A book written in 1909 by a 'quack' skeptic that practiced pseudoscience (breatharianism, fruitarianism) is not valid evidence of anything.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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Bud Bundy said:
why wouldn't these historians hear of christians that cult was around and was getting bigger what with being fed to lions and all.

Why would they care? There were MANY cults in Rome during the 1st Century.....

http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/PP/slides/12romcult.pdf

Christianity was just another one of no importance.

Bud Bundy said:
also all of them were born after the cruxfication with the exception of Thallus but his was work was interpreted by julius Africanus and all he quotes Thallus as saying that a eclipse happened at the time of jesus death.

This is an invalid criticism. When a historian is born has absolutely NO bearing on the subject they write about.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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Hollywood Hogan said:
ACCESS TO PRIMARY SOURCES PROXIMATE TO THE SUBJECT IS THE ISSUE, BROTHER!

That's not an issue whatsoever since one would be assuming primary sources were not available. Knowing what we know of Roman society, that wouldn't be the case back in the 1st Century and before the Library of Alexandria was destroyed.

This is why there should be evidence contradicting any and all historians attesting to the historicity of Jesus in any way, shape or form.

There is NONE for 1800 years.​
 

Bud Bundy

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Why would they care? There were MANY cults in Rome during the 1st Century.....

http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/PP/slides/12romcult.pdf

Christianity was just another one of no importance.



This is an invalid criticism. When a historian is born has absolutely NO bearing on the subject they write about.

to true but my complaint was that no one from the time of agustus said anything about a man coming back to life in Jerusalem. The other poster then gave a bunch me people who were not alive yet.
 
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