Haitian Appreciation Thread

[intruder]

I meant fluently if that changes your answer. The estimates I find about French in Haiti range from 5% to 40% so i wasnt sure.

Fluently I'd say about 50% or less.

Most Haitians don't speak French at home. Only in school and at work.

In school from kindergarten you learned French. You don't touch kreyol until 6ème secondaire (7th grade) if at all.

 

[BigMan]

Fluently I'd say about 50% or less.

Most Haitians don't speak French at home. Only in school and at work.

In school from kindergarten you learned French. You don't touch kreyol until 6ème secondaire (7th grade) if at all.

thanks man

 

[intruder]

thanks man

Mostly upper middle class and the rich who speak mostly french at home. And also what some would call "uppity" folks.
My parents werent as bad but my aunt..... Let's just say we (the children) wouldnt dare speak kreyol in my aunt's house
It's not that kreyol is a bad thing but some tend to look at people that only speak kreyol as uneducated.

 

[BigMan]

Mostly upper middle class and the rich who speak mostly french at home. And also what some would call "uppity" folks.
My parents werent as bad but children wouldnt dare speak kreyol in my aunt's house
It's not that kreyol is a bad thing but some tend to look at people that only speak kreyol as uneducated.

yeah i get that, my pops is Jamaican () thus i know Patois. but growing up my dad and Grandma (especially) always referred to it as "broken English" or "bad English" thus my family really raised me to speak proper English.

anyway as far as i can see, Kreyol is a def separate language than French but i'm not so sure that Patois can be considered the same (i guess another topic) and none of my living Haitian relatives speak French

 

[intruder]

yeah i get that, my pops is Jamaican () thus i know Patois. but growing up my dad and Grandma (especially) always referred to it as "broken English" or "bad English" thus my family really raised me to speak proper English.

anyway as far as i can see, Kreyol is a def separate language than French but i'm not so sure that Patois can be considered the same (i guess another topic) and none of my living Haitian relatives speak French

Kreyol is french-based but it's different from french because it has evolved into its own language. Most of my French friends and French-speaking african friends can understand when i speak kreyol when i say it slow enough and explain some of the substitutions like ou=vous and mwen=moi and so on.

Thus why i say kreyol is simply broken french. We mispronounce some of the words and ignore the verb tenses.

 

[BigMan]

Kreyol is french based. but its different from french because it has evolved into its own language. Most of my french friends and french speaking african friends can understand when i speak kreyol when i say it slow enough and explain some of the substitutions like ou=vous and mwen=moi and so on.

Thus why i say kreyol is simply broken french. We mispronounce some of the words and ignore the verb tenses.

i think this has to due with the prestige and politics of language. for example Afrikaans is considered its own Germanic language when 90%+ of it comes from Dutch, the only difference is grammar, different spelling, and some non Dutch loan words (similar to KReyol) but no one refers to it as "broken Dutch". my mother is a native Dutch speaker and she can also understand it if its slow or written down. IMO if Afrikaans is a language, so is Kreyol. i'm sure you've heard the quote "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

 

[intruder]

i think this has to due with the prestige and politics of language. for example Afrikaans is considered its own Germanic language when 90%+ of it comes from Dutch, the only difference is grammar, different spelling, and some non Dutch loan words (similar to KReyol) but no one refers to it as "broken Dutch". my mother is a native Dutch speaker and she can also understand it if its slow or written down. IMO if Afrikaans is a language, so is Kreyol. i'm sure you've heard the quote "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

I never said kreyol was not a language. Like i said it has evolved into its own language. You will rarely hear people refer to it as broken french BUT when you analyze it that is exactly what it is. I can speak kreyol to many french speakers and they will understand 90% of what i said if i say ut slow enough.
Just like the English language is German and French based but over the centuries it has evolved into its own language.

 

[BigMan]

I never said kreyol was not a language. Like i said it has evolved into its own language. You will rarely hear people refer to it as broken french BUT when you analyze it that is exactly what it is.
Just like the English language is German and French based but over the centuries it has evolved into its own language.

"broken xyz" has a negative connotation that assumes that its not a "real language". like no one says to Spanish speakers that they speak broken Latin

 

[intruder]

"broken xyz" has a negative connotation that assumes that its not a "real language". like no one says to Spanish speakers that they speak broken Latin

But thats exactly what spanish was tho until it evolved.

If you wanna care about connotaitons thats on you. Like the word negro has a negative connotation in the U.S. A white persone here wouldnt dare say "thats my negro" to a black person. But in Haiti, black, whites, mullatos call each other "neg pa mwen" all the time and its no problem. You are reading too much into it.

 

[BigMan]

But thats exactly what spanish was tho until it evolved.

If you wanna care about connotaitons thats on you. Like the word negro has a negative connotation in the U.S. But in Haiti, black, whites, mullatos call each other "neg pa mwen" all the time and its no problem. You are reading too much into it.

IYO is kreyol broken French or its own language ? it can't be both

 

[intruder]

IYO is kreyol broken French or its own language ? it can't be both

Perhaps the definition of Creole will help you see it the way im trying to put it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language

A creole language, or simply a creole, is a stable natural language that has developed from a pidgin, i.e. a simplified version of a language. Creoles differ from pidgins because creoles have been nativized by children as their primary language, with the result that they have features of natural languages that are normally missing from pidgins, which are not anyone's first language.

The precise number of creoles is not known, particularly as these are poorly attested, but about one hundred creole languages have arisen since 1500, predominantly based on European languages, due to the Age of Discovery and the Atlantic slave trade,[1] though there are creoles based on other languages, including Arabic, Chinese, and Malay. The creole with the largest number of speakers is Haitian Creole, with about ten million native speakers.


The vocabulary of a creole language is largely supplied by the parent languages, particularly that of the most dominant group in the social context of the creole's construction, though there are often clear phonetic and semantic shifts. On the other hand, the grammar often has original features that may differ substantially from those of the parent languages......

FYI: As i always say Jamaican patoi is also a creol. They just dont refer to it as such. In Guinee Bisseau and Guinee Conacry they say they speak "creole" but it is different from ours. Theirs are french and portuguese based creole. It's not that just named their creole. It's just a creole by definition. But all of them have evolved into their own languages. We (haitians, guadeloupeans, martiniquans) speak french-creole. Patoi is technically english-creole.

 

[BigMan]

Perhaps the definition of Creole will help you see it the way im trying to put it



FYI: As i always say Jamaican patoi is also a creol. They just dont refer to it as such. In Guinee Bisseau and Guinee Conacry they say they speak "creole" but it it different from ours. It's not that just named their creole. It's just a creole by definition. But all of them have evolved into their own languages. We speak french-creole. Patoi is technically english-creole.

i follow you now, a creole is a language. in many cases Creole/Kreyol/etc is just the name of the language. but linguists differentiate between pidgins, creoles, and patois. a lot of how they classify it however has to do with presitge. IMO Haitian Kreyol is a language (a creole language) not broken French, especially considering the African influence. i think you confused me.

 

[intruder]

i follow you now, a creole is a language. in many cases Creole/Kreyol/etc is just the name of the language. but linguists differentiate between pidgins, creoles, and patois. a lot of how they classify it however has to do with presitge. IMO Haitian Kreyol is a language (a creole language) not broken French, especially considering the African influence. i think you confused me.

You'd have to be fluent in french to understand what im trying to say. THe minute i would say a few sentences in french and then repeat them in kreyol slowly you would be like

 

[BigMan]

You'd have to be fluent in french to understand what im trying to say. THe minute i would say a few sentences in french and then repeat them in kreyol slowly you would be like

i get it, the vocabulary is 90%+ French but its grammar and syntax is different. thats what makes it unique and considered a separate language over the French spoken in Canada for example. anyway i'm all for language sovereignity and applaud all standardizations and uplifting prestige of creoles etc if it makes sense.

 

[intruder]

i get it, the vocabulary is 90%+ French but its grammar and syntax is different. thats what makes it unique and considered a separate language over the French spoken in Canada for example. anyway i'm all for language sovereignity and applaud all standardizations and uplifting prestige of creoles etc if it makes sense.

THe Haitian creole has made major gains. Mostly thanks to Zouk and Kompa music. It wont be seen here in the U.S. since its' an english environment. I remember the first time i went to Paris i went in what looked like an all white restaurant. Then as we sat there chilling i heard haitian music blasting over the speakers. I go to Tabou concerts here in the U.S and the place was full of Panamanians and Columbians. Hell Haitians were the minority in that b!tch since most younger Haitians go for the newer bands