Football brehs, who had the best all time defense. 2000 Ravens, 85 Bears, or the 76 Steelers?

[murksiderock]

I am taking the 2006,2008 ravens defense and the 2008 Steelers defense over the 2013 seahawks defense don't get me wrong. It was a great defense but they didn't have a dominant pass rusher

This isn't true, Michael Bennett was a dominant pass rusher and deserves Canton consideration...

Also, when your defense is elite in the middle and back end you're not as pressed for a dominant pass rush. Which I want to be clear, the absolute premium defensive characteristic is rushing the passer...

But there was never in the history if the NFL a secondary this dominant and we never saw a defense built from the secondary down. You had linebackers who could play in space and defend the run at elite levels. Their turnover rate and red zone percentage as a defense make the fact they were typically a middling sack/sack% unit that much more impressive...

You couldn't score on these nikkas in an era QBs were throwing 5000 yard seasons left and right, in an era you had a WR flirting with 2000 yards...

I'm sorry bro, the mid/late 00s Ravens gave up more big plays and more scores, they just weren't as reliable in the red zone and they never made a Super Bowl------>the LOB Hawks are 2x champs if the fukking coach runs his All-Pro back in on goal to go...

Part of what goes into dominance is being able to overcome adversity and the lesser part of your team. Those Ravens were great but you're comparing them to a unit that 5x consecutively led The League in scoring, in a more offensively explosively era, that was more restrictive in the red zone, that had more timely big plays, AND carried a mid offense to two Super Bowls...

No version of the Baltimore Ravens is better than the LOB...

I'd entertain the '08 Steelers as a 1-year blip, put them up there with other 1-year runs. The Hawks '13 playoff run was a more impressive display of dominance than the '08 Steelers playoff run...

 

[Roger king]

2000 ravens

 

[NYC Rebel]

It means when the quarterback receives the snap by putting his hands in the centre's butt, as opposed to a pistol or shotgun snap where the quarterback catches the snap from a further distance , around 4 yards and about 7 yards, respectively.

Bears forced teams to do that in 86. They changed the game

 

[prime]

This isn't true, Michael Bennett was a dominant pass rusher and deserves Canton consideration...

Also, when your defense is elite in the middle and back end you're not as pressed for a dominant pass rush. Which I want to be clear, the absolute premium defensive characteristic is rushing the passer...

But there was never in the history if the NFL a secondary this dominant and we never saw a defense built from the secondary down. You had linebackers who could play in space and defend the run at elite levels. Their turnover rate and red zone percentage as a defense make the fact they were typically a middling sack/sack% unit that much more impressive...

You couldn't score on these nikkas in an era QBs were throwing 5000 yard seasons left and right, in an era you had a WR flirting with 2000 yards...

I'm sorry bro, the mid/late 00s Ravens gave up more big plays and more scores, they just weren't as reliable in the red zone and they never made a Super Bowl------>the LOB Hawks are 2x champs if the fukking coach runs his All-Pro back in on goal to go...

Part of what goes into dominance is being able to overcome adversity and the lesser part of your team. Those Ravens were great but you're comparing them to a unit that 5x consecutively led The League in scoring, in a more offensively explosively era, that was more restrictive in the red zone, that had more timely big plays, AND carried a mid offense to two Super Bowls...

No version of the Baltimore Ravens is better than the LOB...

I'd entertain the '08 Steelers as a 1-year blip, put them up there with other 1-year runs. The Hawks '13 playoff run was a more impressive display of dominance than the '08 Steelers playoff run...

Michael bennet and cliff avril together had 16 sacks James Harrison alone had 16 sacks and Lamar woodley had 11.5 and the 2006 ravens defense had four players at least 9.5 sacks and had 60 sacks in total and the ravens had 3 players in the top ten interceptions only allowed over 20 points four times that season they had a washed Steve McNair playing QB and lost to the colts 15 to 6 the ravens defense didn't even give up a touchdown and still lost that game like I said the Seahawks defense is great but I'm talking the 2006 and 2008 ravens defense over the Seahawks

 

[prime]

2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Honorable mention to the 99 Bucs. They held the Greatest Show On Turf to 11 points at home

I like this answer too that 99 bucs defense never gets talk about but the 2002 bucs defense and the 1986 giants defense should get some love too

 

[broller]

I am taking the 2006,2008 ravens defense and the 2008 Steelers defense over the 2013 seahawks defense don't get me wrong. It was a great defense but they didn't have a dominant pass rusher

Michael bennet and cliff avril together had 16 sacks James Harrison alone had 16 sacks and Lamar woodley had 11.5 and the 2006 ravens defense had four players at least 9.5 sacks and had 60 sacks in total and the ravens had 3 players in the top ten interceptions only allowed over 20 points four times that season they had a washed Steve McNair playing QB and lost to the colts 15 to 6 the ravens defense didn't even give up a touchdown and still lost that game like I said the Seahawks defense is great but I'm talking the 2006 and 2008 ravens defense over the Seahawks

I think the 2013 Seahawks had a lot of depth on their d-line and had a really good pass rush/pressure still even though they didn't get as many sacks as the 2006 Ravens

But yeah, that 2006 Ravens D could be the most underrated D since 1978. I think they allowed like 12 point something points per game too.

 

[murksiderock]

Michael bennet and cliff avril together had 16 sacks James Harrison alone had 16 sacks and Lamar woodley had 11.5 and the 2006 ravens defense had four players at least 9.5 sacks and had 60 sacks in total and the ravens had 3 players in the top ten interceptions only allowed over 20 points four times that season they had a washed Steve McNair playing QB and lost to the colts 15 to 6 the ravens defense didn't even give up a touchdown and still lost that game like I said the Seahawks defense is great but I'm talking the 2006 and 2008 ravens defense over the Seahawks

The '13 Hawks carried a raw, still developing 2nd year quarterback and mediocre pass offense to a Lombardi, then the next year almost won the Super Bowl again when said QB tried to throw away the NFC Championship Game--->and actually did throw away the Super Bowl...

I'm not taking any version of the Ravens over the LOB. You do realize sacks isn't the only measure of pass rush, correct? Regardless, when you're able to employ the greatest secondary of all time and a multi-faceted, ranging linebacker unit, you don't have to have the onus on getting to the QB to the same degree...

And again I value rushing the passer as the most critical defensive skill period...

Those '06 Ravens didn't play in the same league as the '13 LOB. In 2013 there were 9 4000-yard passers, 2 of them at 5000. 10 1300-yard receivers...

In '06 there were 5 4000-yard passers and 4 1300 yard receivers...

The Hawks sack percentage was typically middle of the pack (though they were 4th and 8th on two seasons) but they could afford this because they were uniquely gifted in defending the pass and historically gifted in taking the ball away in a league of more efficient quarterback play restricting touchdowns in the red zone in a league of more explosive and efficient offense...

In '06 the average passer rating was 80.4 , in '13 that was 85.9, that's a leap of 5.5 points in just 7 years, that's substantial. QB play was improving by nearly a point per season...

The '06 Ravens had a soft schedule after going 6-10 the previous year and only played two elite QBs all year...

The '13 LOB were 11-5 the previous year so nothing soft on the schedule, and had to play the best version of Kaepernick, Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, and Cam Newton a combined 8 times, half their schedule...

Then in the playoffs went thru Brees again, Kaepernick again, and Manning. So 11 of 19 games vs top tier quarterbacks of that period...

You can only play whose in front of you so I get it, bit there's a reason we don't compare great defenses that never won a title to defenses that did. Otherwise I could make the case the '06 Ravens are better than the '00 Ravens....

 

[broller]

The '13 Hawks carried a raw, still developing 2nd year quarterback and mediocre pass offense to a Lombardi, then the next year almost won the Super Bowl again when said QB tried to throw away the NFC Championship Game--->and actually did throw away the Super Bowl...

I'm not taking any version of the Ravens over the LOB. You do realize sacks isn't the only measure of pass rush, correct? Regardless, when you're able to employ the greatest secondary of all time and a multi-faceted, ranging linebacker unit, you don't have to have the onus on getting to the QB to the same degree...

And again I value rushing the passer as the most critical defensive skill period...

Those '06 Ravens didn't play in the same league as the '13 LOB. In 2013 there were 9 4000-yard passers, 2 of them at 5000. 10 1300-yard receivers...

In '06 there were 5 4000-yard passers and 4 1300 yard receivers...

The Hawks sack percentage was typically middle of the pack (though they were 4th and 8th on two seasons) but they could afford this because they were uniquely gifted in defending the pass and historically gifted in taking the ball away in a league of more efficient quarterback play restricting touchdowns in the red zone in a league of more explosive and efficient offense...

In '06 the average passer rating was 80.4 , in '13 that was 85.9, that's a leap of 5.5 points in just 7 years, that's substantial. QB play was improving by nearly a point per season...

The '06 Ravens had a soft schedule after going 6-10 the previous year and only played two elite QBs all year...

The '13 LOB were 11-5 the previous year so nothing soft on the schedule, and had to play the best version of Kaepernick, Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, and Cam Newton a combined 8 times, half their schedule...

Then in the playoffs went thru Brees again, Kaepernick again, and Manning. So 11 of 19 games vs top tier quarterbacks of that period...

You can only play whose in front of you so I get it, bit there's a reason we don't compare great defenses that never won a title to defenses that did. Otherwise I could make the case the '06 Ravens are better than the '00 Ravens....

Good point about the SOS.

 

[UpAndComing]

None of the above....

The '15 Broncos and '13 Seahawks were more dominant defenses than any pre-2010 defense because of the era in which they played...

All were great for the era in which they played but you're asking what the greatest defense of ALL-TIME is which means we comparing cross eras...

The greatest defenses ever, '13 Hawks and '15 Broncos have cases for 1-year runs but sustainability, there is no defense in the history of the NFL greater than the 2012-16 Legion Of Boom Seattle Seahawks...

So this is what I wanna ask. How does a team that dominates this era automatically mean they would dominate past eras in the 70s-2000s ?

 

[murksiderock]

So this is what I wanna ask. How does a team that dominates this era automatically mean they would dominate past eras in the 70s-2000s ?

Because everything advances. The LOB were already better prepared and smarter football players than guys from previous eras because everyone is...

They could adapt to a more run heavy era more easily than team from run heavy eras could adapt to their era, because they were a team that could tackle and stop the run. They were athletic, big, physical at the point of contact...

A defense from an older era would have to be able to understand modern passing and offensive concepts, would have to have the athleticism to defend faster and stronger offensive athletes, and would have to have the brain to play on the fly vs modern quarterbacks...

Taking a modern team to a more dumbed down era would always be a win for the modern team but I wanna be clear: All-Timers are All-Timers in any era, if you took the Steel Curtain and brought them to the 2020s, those guys would dominate this era like they did the 70s because they'd have all the advantages modern guys have...

However, when we compare cross eras, we not saying "what if this team was un that era". We comparing based on how we value dominance within their own eras...

I simply think the challenges the LOB had in front of them in the era they played, and the fact they dominated to the highest degree, is a more notable feat that other historic defenses from more archaic eras...

 

[Street Knowledge]

Football outsiders says the 91 eagles because they had the second best run defense ever(behind 2000 ravens) and 2nd best pass defense ever(behind the 02 Bucs) which makes them the best overall defense

 

[RedBull]

I saw and understood the ‘85 Bears and ‘00 Ravens.

I have to give the edge to, Da Bears. But the Ravens were more exciting IMO.

 

[ReturnOfJudah]

 

[prime]

The '13 Hawks carried a raw, still developing 2nd year quarterback and mediocre pass offense to a Lombardi, then the next year almost won the Super Bowl again when said QB tried to throw away the NFC Championship Game--->and actually did throw away the Super Bowl...

I'm not taking any version of the Ravens over the LOB. You do realize sacks isn't the only measure of pass rush, correct? Regardless, when you're able to employ the greatest secondary of all time and a multi-faceted, ranging linebacker unit, you don't have to have the onus on getting to the QB to the same degree...

And again I value rushing the passer as the most critical defensive skill period...

Those '06 Ravens didn't play in the same league as the '13 LOB. In 2013 there were 9 4000-yard passers, 2 of them at 5000. 10 1300-yard receivers...

In '06 there were 5 4000-yard passers and 4 1300 yard receivers...

The Hawks sack percentage was typically middle of the pack (though they were 4th and 8th on two seasons) but they could afford this because they were uniquely gifted in defending the pass and historically gifted in taking the ball away in a league of more efficient quarterback play restricting touchdowns in the red zone in a league of more explosive and efficient offense...

In '06 the average passer rating was 80.4 , in '13 that was 85.9, that's a leap of 5.5 points in just 7 years, that's substantial. QB play was improving by nearly a point per season...

The '06 Ravens had a soft schedule after going 6-10 the previous year and only played two elite QBs all year...

The '13 LOB were 11-5 the previous year so nothing soft on the schedule, and had to play the best version of Kaepernick, Andrew Luck, Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, and Cam Newton a combined 8 times, half their schedule...

Then in the playoffs went thru Brees again, Kaepernick again, and Manning. So 11 of 19 games vs top tier quarterbacks of that period...

You can only play whose in front of you so I get it, bit there's a reason we don't compare great defenses that never won a title to defenses that did. Otherwise I could make the case the '06 Ravens are better than the '00 Ravens....

I got this from Reddit...



***Volume and efficiency stats overall:***



* 1st in yards against (264 yards/game)

* 1st in points against (12.6 points/game)

* 1st in opponents 1st downs allowed (236)

* 1st in 3rd down conversion % (28.8%)

* 1st in defensive DVOA (-25.6%)

* 1st in Y/P against (4.5)

* 2nd in turnovers (40)

* 1st in opponent score % (19.5%)

* 1st in opponent offensive TO % (20%)

* 1st in yards allowed per drive (21.6)

* 1st in plays allowed per drive (4.9)



The 2006 Bears are revered for being an all time defense but the Ravens ranked 1st in just about every category. They allowed only 12.6 points/game which no team has accomplished since. They were the best at stopping the opponent offense from scoring and even gaining yards as evident by the Y/P and Score %. This defense was also exceptional at causing turnovers. Their defense was so good that they were more likely to cause a turnover (20.0%) than allow a score (19.5%)



​



***The Front Seven:***



The front seven for the Ravens was lethal featuring 3 HOF level players in Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, and Terrell Suggs as well as Pro Bowler Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, and Trevor Pryce. This team was awesome against the run. They allowed 76 rushing yards/game and 3.3 yards/attempt, both 2nd in the NFL, only behind the Williams Wall of Minnesota. They also only allowed 5 rushing TD all season which was the best in the NFL. The linebackers especially racked up tons of tackles:



* Ray Lewis: 103

* Bart Scott: 103

* Adalius Thomas: 83

* Terrell Suggs: 65



This team was also insane in pass rush and regarding TFL. They are the only team since sacks have been recorded in 1982 to have 4 players with 9.5 sacks or more.



* 2nd in sacks (60)

* 1st in TFL (93)

* 1st in QB hits (115)

* 1st in sack % (10.5%)



Literally 1/10 plays by the opposing offense ended in a sack. The pass rush onslaught was mostly done by Thomas, Suggs, Trevor Pryce, and Bart Scott



||*Sacks*|*TFL*|*QB Hits*|

|:-|:-|:-|:-|

|**Trevor Pryce**|13.0|12|23|

|**Adalius Thomas**|11.0|14|24|

|**Terrell Suggs**|9.5|15|15|

|**Bart Scott**|9.5|12|20|



​



***The Secondary:***



The secondary contained arguably the greatest safety Ed Reed, excellent cornerbacks Chris McCallister and Samari Rolle, as well as solid safety Dawan Landry. They weren't absolutely stout in allowing passing yards (6th with 188 passing yards/game) but they were awesome in every other aspect of passing. They allowed incredibly low opponent efficiency passing numbers and forced turnovers at a huge rate. This secondary only allowed 16 passing TD to 28 INT



* 1st in INT (28)

* 2nd in Passes deflected (110)

* 1st in INT % (5.5%)

* 1st in passer rating against (63.4)

* 1st in ANY/A allowed (3.6)



This secondary allowed a passer rating of 63.4. For reference the LOB allowed a passer rating of 69.4. They forced an INT once every 20 plays. When coupled with their 10.5% sacks % they either forced a sack or interception once every roughly 6 plays. The main four of Reed, McCallister, Rolle, and Landry combined for great stats



||*INT*|

|:-|:-|

|**Ed Reed**|5|

|**Dawan Landry**|5|

|**Chris McCallister**|6|

|**Samari Rolle**|3|



​



***How did they do against top offensive opposition?***



*Vs. #4 offense Chargers and MVP LaDainian Tomlinson*



LdT totalled 31 TD and over 2000 yards from scrimmage in 2006 yet against the Ravens he was held to 3.8 Y/A and 0 TD. The Chargers also had 1st team all pros Lorenzo Neal and Antonio Gates. Gates was held to 41 yards on 4 receptions. The Chargers only scored 13 points in this game



*Vs. #3 offense Colts and 2nd team all pro Peyton Manning*



Peyton was held to 0 TD, 2 INT, and a 39.6 passer rating. Marvin Harrison had 45 yards on 4 receptions and Reggie Wayne had 51 yards on 5 receptions. 3 HOF level players were reduced to near zero production against this Ravens defense. The Colts offense also scored only 15 points on 5 field goals.



*Vs. #1 offense Saints and 1st team all pro Drew Brees*



The 1st team all pro QB in 2006 was Brees along with 1st team all pro LT Jamaal Brown. Brees threw for 3 TD but he also threw 3 INT, had a 74.6 passer rating, sacked twice, and hit 7 times that game. The Saints put up 22 points, one of the best against the Ravens but still below their average.



*Vs. #15 offense Chiefs and 2nd team all pro Larry Johnson*



The Chiefs also had 2nd team all pro Tony Gonzalez and Will Shields. Johnson rushed well: 120 yards on 23 carries. Nonetheless he was still kept out of the end zone in a year he had 17 rushing TD. The Chiefs only scored 10 points.



*Vs. #7 offense Steelers twice*



The Ravens allowed a grand total of 7 points in two games against the Steelers. One 31-7 victory and a 27-0 shutout as well. Big Ben threw for 1 TD and 4 INT in those two games without breaking a 50.0 passer rating in either game. The Ravens also totaled 14 sacks between the two games.



*Vs. #8 offense Bengals twice with 1st team all pro Chad Johnson and 1st team all pro OT Willie Anderson*



The Bengals averaged 16.5 points/game between the two games. Between the two games Johnson was held to 0 TD, 12 receptions, and 122 yards. Carson Palmer threw 2 TD and 2 INT. The Ravens sacked Palmer 4 times between the two games.


Once again, I think the Seahawks defense was great honestly their isnt a wrong answer but personally I'm taking a 2006 ravens defense

 

[General Mills]

Mark Brunnel feasted on the 2000 Ravens even more than Marino on the 85 bears


85 bears also lead the league in both scoring defense and yardage defense. 00 ravens were 1st in scoring d but 2nd in yardage d.

That Jags team was elite. They were built for AFC football