Fascinating MJ/Kobe/Bron Comparison

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

The only people who hate analytics are the ones who think advanced metrics exist to confirm their visual biases. So when a stat tells a story that shatters their biased views, they dismiss it as cherry picking, useless, or insert a variety of "stats nerds" insults.

That's not how this works.

The numbers are merely a record of what has happened. Virtually the only critique you can make about any stats analysis is that perhaps a particular stat may be incomplete. And that's a legitimate point to make. No single stat will ever encompass a player's career/season/game. But a series of stats, taken together to tell a more complete story is always going to be more accurate than a single stat, or whatever biased opinions that come out of some "eye test".

There isn't a stat on earth, in any sport, on any level that is created with the intent to favor one player over another.
Frankly, what you find is that when a player rates highly in 1 advanced metric, he rates highly in basically all similar metrics. And vice versa.

If you can't understand why these advanced analytics are a more accurate representation of a player's value and greatness than something like "Finals record", then you're just too stupid or ignorant to even have this conversation.

If advanced stats dont translate to finals wins, then we know where the meaning stat padding stems from. If a player is so much more valuable than others, his value should translate to more wins than losses on the biggest stage. As it is, his team only has to win 4 games before they lose 4. Looks like advanced stats only tells a part of the story and not the whole.

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

Who are you talking about?

And How is Jordan? Simple: 100% Finals win rate is how....

If you dont know, how can you rank who is highest?

 

[Flywin Lannister]

If you dont know, how can you rank who is highest?

There have been many great champs before the Jordan era took flight (Bill Russell to name 1, Kareem Abdul Jabbar to name another)

For me it started with MJ, who is universally recognized as the G.O.A.T.

But I respect all opinions, explain to me why this player should be considered in the conversation

 

[Remote]

If advanced stats dont translate to finals wins, then we know where the meaning stat padding stems from. If a player is so much more valuable than others, his value should translate to more wins than losses on the biggest stage.

Not exactly. You're assuming all things are equal across teammates for the opposing teams.
This is why even though Michael was elite in the 1980s, he didn't win. Because the rest of his team couldn't overcome his opponents who, while lacking an individual player as elite as Michael, were superior everywhere else.

This is just common sense as to why you don't always equate team success with individual greatness.

 

[#1 pick]

A contrived stat that basically tries to figure out total points added on offense and total points saved on defense. Stats like these are beneficial to Lebron since he doesn't really play in any sort of offensive system except Bron Ball, so when he hits the bench the team's offense tanks since he doesn't have a system to fall back on. There's a reason you see Jordan's TPA start to decline as he became more ingrained in the traingle offense.

Haters gonna hate. All I know is MJs best season ending with no winning. Not the GOAT tho. Greatness!

 

[Ben.]

Yes to those three, and Amare Stoudemire who I believe led the league in points scored in the paint during the 2009-10 season. Putting up similar numbers does not mean you have a similar game at all. Stoudemire, Howard, Randolph, and Duncan all regularly played closer to the rim than Bosh did. Bosh was never a game changer as one of the two best players on a team. He made one all nba third team in 2006-07, no other all nba teams in his career, and no all defensive teams. He led the raptors to the playoffs twice, losing in the first round both times. He wasn’t a premier shot blocker either, averaging 1 block per game on the career and peaking at 1.4 per game. He was a great number 3 who put up impressive numbers on a mediocre/bad team before signing with the heat, and he was not a banger in the paint. He played primarily with a faceup game and worked the pick & roll/pick & pop game while taking a lot of shots from mid range. He didn’t at any point have a Shaq or Duncan type game where he’d take the majority of his shots on the low block. Duncan took the majority of his shots within 10 feet, while Bosh took a lot from mid range. In fact here are Bosh’s shooting numbers his last 3 seasons in Toronto (2007-08 through 2009-10):

2007-08: 67 games played, 1,027 shots (15.3 per game). 261-409 at the rim (63.8%), 53-127 from 3-10 feet (41.7%), 76-188 from 10-16 feet (40.4%), 148-360 from 16-23 feet (41.1%)

2008-09: 77 games played, 1,263 shots (16.4 per game). 236-397 at the rim (59.4%), 74-171 from 3-10 feet (43.3%), 91-228 from 10-16 feet (39.9%), 202-418 from 16-23 feet (48.3%)

2009-10: 70 games played, 1158 shots (16.5 per game). 269-407 at the rim (66.1%), 110-251 from 3-10 feet (43.8%), 93-219 from 10-16 feet (42.5%), 120-259 from 16-23 feet (46.3%)

Only one of those seasons did he attempt even 40% of his shots at the rim. Over his last two seasons with the raptors he took about a third of his shots at the rim while taking roughly 38% of his shots from 10-23 feet. That’s always been a big part of his game. In fact, he took 37% of his shots during the Heat’s two title runs at the rim, which was higher than both of his last two seasons in Toronto. Even the last season LeBron played in Miami Bosh took more shots at the rim than from any other distance on the court and took a higher percentage of his shots at the rim that year than during 2008-09 and only a 0.4% difference than during 2009-10.

Straight facts, insane how dudes just make up shyt to fit their agenda. Forget Bosh hated the idea of playing at C or playing down low more

 

[DallasTxRep]

The Kobe hate on this site always baffles me

 

[DallasTxRep]

And muthafukkas always talking about numbers don't lie then make excuses to why LeBron is 3-5 in the Finals lol

 

[DallasTxRep]

I'm a fan of all 3 guys to a certain extent but if you ask every living NBA player past & present who they would LEAST like to face in a Game 7 I would bet my life the overwhelming majority would pick Jordan

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

Not exactly. You're assuming all things are equal across teammates for the opposing teams.
This is why even though Michael was elite in the 1980s, he didn't win. Because the rest of his team couldn't overcome his opponents who, while lacking an individual player as elite as Michael, were superior everywhere else.

This is just common sense as to why you don't always equate team success with individual greatness.

So a lebron team is good for 127 wins in two seasons, but cant even make the finals? His teams are good enough to make the finals 8 times, but lose 5? This tpa math is funny in the light. We might as well start calling guys like Dominique and TMac top ten goats since its a team game all of a sudden when they cant lead their teams to the finals. Its not their fault the rest of the team couldnt overcome the opposition. As for your last line, this isn’t tennis or boxing or bowling. Its a team sport. If you cant elevate your team to the highest honor, how good are you? Good enough to get to the championship round, just not good enough to win it.What good is individual success if your team isnt winning?

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

There have been many great champs before the Jordan era took flight (Bill Russell to name 1, Kareem Abdul Jabbar to name another)

For me it started with MJ, who is universally recognized as the G.O.A.T.

But I respect all opinions, explain to me why this player should be considered in the conversation

I gave you the data. Tell me why hes not.

 

[Remote]

So a lebron team is good for 127 wins in two seasons, but cant even make the finals? His teams are good enough to make the finals 8 times, but lose 5? This tpa math is funny in the light. We might as well start calling guys like Dominique and TMac top ten goats since its a team game all of a sudden when they cant lead their teams to the finals. Its not their fault the rest of the team couldnt overcome the opposition. As for your last line, this isn’t tennis or boxing or bowling. Its a team sport. If you cant elevate your team to the highest honor, how good are you? Good enough to get to the championship round, just not good enough to win it.What good is individual success if your team isnt winning?

You’re not addressing the point.

Your whole argument is one big “if you’re so great why don’t you have more championships?”

And to that I’m just going to keep repeating that individual greatness isn’t always enough to overcome overall team greatness.

There are areas to critique Lebron.
“3-5 in the finals” is literally the worst, most useless one though.

 

[Kobes Two Jerseys]

You’re not addressing the point.

Your whole argument is one big “if you’re so great why don’t you have more championships?”

And to that I’m just going to keep repeating that individual greatness isn’t always enough to overcome overall team greatness.

There are areas to critique Lebron.
“3-5 in the finals” is literally the worst, most useless one though.

I get the point. You dont. If you are good enough to lead your team to the championship series, and lose more than you win, you are never going to be better than the other guys who won the majority of the time. The guys who mostly won, used their skills, set up their teammates for success, and won.

 

[jadillac]

of the 3(KB, MJ, LBJ) Lebron is the greatest all-around player. But with that said, alot of his numbers are worthless.

 

[Remote]

I get the point. You dont. If you are good enough to lead your team to the championship series, and lose more than you win, you are never going to be better than the other guys who won the majority of the time. The guys who mostly won, used their skills, set up their teammates for success, and won.

There are just too many variables here to even believe this statement could be true.

Every year is different.
Every opponent is different.
Health changes from year to year.
The extent to which you could quantify “leading” changes from year to year.

You think Jordan or Kareem or Shaq or even Curry was leading and carrying their teams to titles in every game or series or year? That’s just preposterous and a gross simplification of how their titles were won.

This is so fukking exhausting how some of you continue to insist on crediting or faulting ONE man for the failure or success of a TEAM in a given year.