Fact: The Ancient Egyptians were black and here is why.

godkiller

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This is where we agree to disagree here in regards to Nilo Saharan people. Please answer this question,

1. If Nilosaharan people were the first or the originators of "Nile Valley civilization, why is the Asiasiatic language the oldest written language in the region? If the Nilosharan people were once dominant, then logically it is fare to reason they would had create the first writing system in the "nile valley".

However this is the first form of writing in what is now Egypt and North Sudan.

3455175832_0ddf0cde6f.jpg

Semna Temple Sudan. From the Sudan National Museum.

Afro Asiatic language(above) the oldest form of writing system in both North Sudan and Egypt


Interesting write up about Kerma from good old wikipedia.



I understand among scholars it is a contested issue, in regards to the language families of certain groups during that period.

Kerma Culture - Wikipedia

Language itself doesn't mean anything when we have genes to replace it. Study on Ancient Egyptians indicate they are part Nilo Saharan, part Western African, part Central African and part Great Lakes African (i.e. Kenya). Anyone can speak any language. The people of Northern Sudan are half Arab invader and their Arab DNA is traced back to the Middle East; they didn't even exist when Ancient Egyptians did.
 

godkiller

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It's true. There are a plethora of studies on Somali Eurasian admixture. In fact every study ever done on Somalis concludes Somali are significantly mixed with invader Eurasian from a few thousand years ago. Don't believe me? Here's the study:


http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393.s017&type=supplementary

"Second, we conducted three formal tests for admixture and found that eight of the HOA populations had statistically significant signals of admixture with non-African populations for all three tests (Tables S2, S3, S4)"

"The f3 bounds and f4 ratio estimates agree that all admixed HOA populations have around 50% non-African ancestry (see table immediately below|"
---


As you can see, Somalis and Ethios are similar to Mexicans and Hispanic. You are not a race of your own but rather just a halfbreed mutt population that came about from Arab invasion. Inasmuch as Ancient Egyptians are concerned, King Tut, Ramses, etc and their Ancient Egyptian relatives are recorded as 94%+ black African with the rest coming from contamination* or just genetic similarity between humans*
 
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mbewane

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Ironically I just watched a documentary on Cheikh Anta Diop yesterday, which I assume most of y'all know already. I knew the name and his ideas, but never really took time to inform myself on the man. Def need to read some of his books now.
 

3rdWorld

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I haven't read the entire thread..
Are cacs in here pulling their usual nonsense..
 

Bawon Samedi

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Now that I have time to reply to this post.

This is where we agree to disagree here in regards to Nilo Saharan people. Please answer this question,

1. If Nilosaharan people were the first or the originators of "Nile Valley civilization, why is the Asiasiatic language the oldest written language in the region? If the Nilosharan people were once dominant, then logically it is fare to reason they would had create the first writing system in the "nile valley".

However this is the first form of writing in what is now Egypt and North Sudan.

Seriously Misreeya, this dance is getting very annoying as I have explained this to you many times when we had this debate MORE THAN ONCE. I don't know why you even find the need to "disagree" when there is nothing to disagree about... No offense but it seems that you like most Africans mix "nationalism" with academia. I notice that when you see the word "Nilo-Saharan" you automatically get a kneejerk reaction and automatically assume Southern Sudanese. Are you not aware that THESE PEOPLE are too Nilo-Saharan???
nubian-men.jpg

^Who are those men? Oh that's right the NUBIAN people in Sudan TODAY, WHO are not as Arabized like the rest of the population and they too speak a Nilo-Saharan language like... THESE PEOPLE!
dinka-03.jpg


As for the bolded, we are NOT talking about civilizations but migrations before civilizations. Not only that, but bringing up writing scripts is moot and that is not how we measure human occupations. By you're logic the Latin Script is the oldest written script in Nordic and Germanic Europe. And so because of that Latin people occupied those parts of Europe longer than Nordic/Germanic Europeans... OR better yet... Since the Arabic script is the oldest writing script in Sahel West Africa, the original occupants of Sahel West Africa were Arabs. :rolleyes:

I already told you that Afro-Asiatic came recently to the area Egypt(and not from the horn but most likely the Western Desert or Red Sea), and that the ancestors of the Ancient Egyptians acquired the language group. We already know that Nilo-Saharan speakers were once more widespread on the Nile Valley based on genetic lineages alone!
Accordingly, through limited on number of aDNA samples, there is enough data to suggest and to tally with the historical evidence of the dominance by Nilotic elements during the early state formation in the Nile Valley, and as the states thrived there was a dominance by other elements particularly Nuba / Nubians. In Y-chromosome terms this mean in simplest terms introgression of the YAP insertion (haplogroups E and D), and Eurasian Haplogroups which are defined by F-M89 against a background of haplogroup A-M13.
Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan

^^Read the bolded. Misreeya, this is stuff I posted to you MANY times. Show me genetic lineages OLDER than the ones found in Nilo-Saharan people if NS speakers are not the oldest on the Nile Valley. Most other genetic linages especially those found in Somalis are recent.

3455175832_0ddf0cde6f.jpg

Semna Temple Sudan. From the Sudan National Museum.

Afro Asiatic language(above) the oldest form of writing system in both North Sudan and Egypt


Interesting write up about Kerma from good old wikipedia.



I understand among scholars it is a contested issue, in regards to the language families of certain groups during that period.

Kerma Culture - Wikipedia

Kerma is not Ancient Egypt. And it is agreed that there were many types of Nubian groups like the C-group who are agreed to have spoken an AA language,l but were more similar to Beja people who are a North African Cushyte speaker group and not a Sub Sahara Cushytic speaking group like Somalis. So my point still stands.
 

Bawon Samedi

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It's true. There are a plethora of studies on Somali Eurasian admixture. In fact every study ever done on Somalis concludes Somali are significantly mixed with invader Eurasian from a few thousand years ago. Don't believe me? Here's the study:


http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393.s017&type=supplementary

"Second, we conducted three formal tests for admixture and found that eight of the HOA populations had statistically significant signals of admixture with non-African populations for all three tests (Tables S2, S3, S4)"

"The f3 bounds and f4 ratio estimates agree that all admixed HOA populations have around 50% non-African ancestry (see table immediately below|"
---


As you can see, Somalis and Ethios are similar to Mexicans and Hispanic. You are not a race of your own but rather just a halfbreed mutt population that came about from Arab invasion. Inasmuch as Ancient Egyptians are concerned, King Tut, Ramses, etc and their Ancient Egyptian relatives are recorded as 94%+ black African with the rest coming from contamination* or just genetic similarity between humans*

You don't even know what you're posting. Not only does your source look sloppy(can not even find a repeat of it on Google), but they are referring to "admixed" HOA populations. Somalis are the most "Sub Sahara-like" out of all the HOA populations so over 50% is a wild claim to begin with...

Distribution of blood groups in the East African Somali population.
The results of a population survey on blood group distribution in Somalia, East Africa, are presented. Over 1,000 subjects were tested for most blood groups included in the survey. The sampling covered the whole country and was well in accordance with the population density as estimated by the recorded birth places of the subjects. Altogether, 46 blood group antigens were tested, partly common antigens within 11 of the major blood group systems, but also infrequent and very frequent antigens, some not tested before in Africa, were included. The results were compared with the available data for other related peoples and for populations from the same geographical area. The standard genetic distances were also applied in the comparison. The results suggest that only a minor component in the genetic constitution of the Somali population can be ascribed to Caucasian admixture. They are markedly in contrast with some earlier findings. During the survey we observed a previously unknown Rh gene complex occurring with a polymorphic frequency in Somalis.
Distribution of blood groups in the East African Somali population. - PubMed - NCBI
 

godkiller

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You don't even know what you're posting. Not only does your source look sloppy(can not even find a repeat of it on Google), but they are referring to "admixed" HOA populations. Somalis are the most "Sub Sahara-like" out of all the HOA populations so over 50% is a wild claim to begin with...

Distribution of blood groups in the East African Somali population.

Distribution of blood groups in the East African Somali population. - PubMed - NCBI

The one who doesn't know what they're talking about is you.

Your study here doesn't disprove any of what I said about admixed Horn of Africa (read: HOA) groups. Blood groups are merely suggestive (read: the researchers in your study uses the word "suggest", which means "may indicate") of racial ancestry; genes are confirmed proof (read: indisputable) of it. Therefore my evidence (actual Caucasian DNA found in every genetic Horner study)>>>> yours in this context.


To summarize, we don't need to consider blood groups we when have actual haplogroups, genes, STRs, which define to the minute inch every bit of a people's ancestry and heritage. Hence Somalis are mixed inexorably and indisputably.
 
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Misreeya

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Sudan/New Zealand.
Now that I have time to reply to this post.



Seriously Misreeya, this dance is getting very annoying as I have explained this to you many times when we had this debate MORE THAN ONCE. I don't know why you even find the need to "disagree" when there is nothing to disagree about... No offense but it seems that you like most Africans mix "nationalism" with academia. I notice that when you see the word "Nilo-Saharan" you automatically get a kneejerk reaction and automatically assume Southern Sudanese. Are you not aware that THESE PEOPLE are too Nilo-Saharan???
nubian-men.jpg

^Who are those men? Oh that's right the NUBIAN people in Sudan TODAY, WHO are not as Arabized like the rest of the population and they too speak a Nilo-Saharan language like... THESE PEOPLE!
dinka-03.jpg


As for the bolded, we are NOT talking about civilizations but migrations before civilizations. Not only that, but bringing up writing scripts is moot and that is not how we measure human occupations. By you're logic the Latin Script is the oldest written script in Nordic and Germanic Europe. And so because of that Latin people occupied those parts of Europe longer than Nordic/Germanic Europeans... OR better yet... Since the Arabic script is the oldest writing script in Sahel West Africa, the original occupants of Sahel West Africa were Arabs. :rolleyes:

I already told you that Afro-Asiatic came recently to the area Egypt(and not from the horn but most likely the Western Desert or Red Sea), and that the ancestors of the Ancient Egyptians acquired the language group. We already know that Nilo-Saharan speakers were once more widespread on the Nile Valley based on genetic lineages alone!

Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan

^^Read the bolded. Misreeya, this is stuff I posted to you MANY times. Show me genetic lineages OLDER than the ones found in Nilo-Saharan people if NS speakers are not the oldest on the Nile Valley. Most other genetic linages especially those found in Somalis are recent.



Kerma is not Ancient Egypt. And it is agreed that there were many types of Nubian groups like the C-group who are agreed to have spoken an AA language,l but were more similar to Beja people who are a North African Cushyte speaker group and not a Sub Sahara Cushytic speaking group like Somalis. So my point still stands.

We have to agree to disagree with this one kidstrangeldhold, and nowhere within my statement i mentioned Somalis. Nor did i mentioned Kerma was part of Ancient Egypt civilization, however scholars believe they (kerma) were originally Cushytic language wise before NiloSaharan migration.



Show me genetic lineages OLDER than the ones found in Nilo-Saharan people if NS speakers are not the oldest on the Nile Valley.

Studies is not always concrete or conclusion, because you never know what may be discovered in the years that follows.

As for the bolded, we are NOT talking about civilizations but migrations before civilizations.

Tell that to your friends above "Mr Roddy", that is how he draws his conclusions.

Cheers.
 

godkiller

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We have to agree to disagree with this one kidstrangeldhold, and nowhere within my statement i mentioned Somalis. Nor did i mentioned Kerma was part of Ancient Egypt civilization, however scholars believe they (kerma) were originally Cushytic language wise before NiloSaharan migration.





Studies is not always concrete or conclusion, because you never know what may be discovered in the years that follows.



Tell that to your friends above "Mr Roddy", that is how he draws his conclusions.

Cheers.


All the above is irrelevant to OP and actually changes the subject, @KidStranglehold . You don't need to know anything about language to interpret genetic data and study. Language is merely suggestive of race and ethnicity; it is not direct proof like DNA is. I link haplogroup and direct STR genetic study on Ancient Egyptians, which supersedes any language claims.
 

3rdWorld

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Cacs claimed ancient Egypt? show me the receipts...and not just random twitter trolls or some other BS.



Does it really burn their souls though? not sure if you've looked around the world lately but white ppl seem to have done OK.

But I get it, its what you have to say to yourself to convince yourself that white ppl are hurting right now.

Egypt is central to Christianity. Egypt and Ethiopia..take that away you take away jesus. of course cacs though soulless will be hurt.
 

Premeditated

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IMMIGRANT TETHERS
Now that I have time to reply to this post.



Seriously Misreeya, this dance is getting very annoying as I have explained this to you many times when we had this debate MORE THAN ONCE. I don't know why you even find the need to "disagree" when there is nothing to disagree about... No offense but it seems that you like most Africans mix "nationalism" with academia. I notice that when you see the word "Nilo-Saharan" you automatically get a kneejerk reaction and automatically assume Southern Sudanese. Are you not aware that THESE PEOPLE are too Nilo-Saharan???
nubian-men.jpg

^Who are those men? Oh that's right the NUBIAN people in Sudan TODAY, WHO are not as Arabized like the rest of the population and they too speak a Nilo-Saharan language like... THESE PEOPLE!
dinka-03.jpg


As for the bolded, we are NOT talking about civilizations but migrations before civilizations. Not only that, but bringing up writing scripts is moot and that is not how we measure human occupations. By you're logic the Latin Script is the oldest written script in Nordic and Germanic Europe. And so because of that Latin people occupied those parts of Europe longer than Nordic/Germanic Europeans... OR better yet... Since the Arabic script is the oldest writing script in Sahel West Africa, the original occupants of Sahel West Africa were Arabs. :rolleyes:

I already told you that Afro-Asiatic came recently to the area Egypt(and not from the horn but most likely the Western Desert or Red Sea), and that the ancestors of the Ancient Egyptians acquired the language group. We already know that Nilo-Saharan speakers were once more widespread on the Nile Valley based on genetic lineages alone!

Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan

^^Read the bolded. Misreeya, this is stuff I posted to you MANY times. Show me genetic lineages OLDER than the ones found in Nilo-Saharan people if NS speakers are not the oldest on the Nile Valley. Most other genetic linages especially those found in Somalis are recent.



Kerma is not Ancient Egypt. And it is agreed that there were many types of Nubian groups like the C-group who are agreed to have spoken an AA language,l but were more similar to Beja people who are a North African Cushyte speaker group and not a Sub Sahara Cushytic speaking group like Somalis. So my point still stands.
pure ether

I don't know why that chick likes to play dumb pretending like Nilo Saharan aren't the engineers of AE, I bet if you ask her she'll rather say that Coptics are the descendants of AE rather than non modern Nubian blacks. I don't care how mature or courtious she comes off in debates, you can tell she looks down on stereotypical Africans
 

Karb

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It's true. There are a plethora of studies on Somali Eurasian admixture. In fact every study ever done on Somalis concludes Somali are significantly mixed with invader Eurasian from a few thousand years ago. Don't believe me? Here's the study:


http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393.s017&type=supplementary

"Second, we conducted three formal tests for admixture and found that eight of the HOA populations had statistically significant signals of admixture with non-African populations for all three tests (Tables S2, S3, S4)"

"The f3 bounds and f4 ratio estimates agree that all admixed HOA populations have around 50% non-African ancestry (see table immediately below|"
---


As you can see, Somalis and Ethios are similar to Mexicans and Hispanic. You are not a race of your own but rather just a halfbreed mutt population that came about from Arab invasion. Inasmuch as Ancient Egyptians are concerned, King Tut, Ramses, etc and their Ancient Egyptian relatives are recorded as 94%+ black African with the rest coming from contamination* or just genetic similarity between humans*

Your argument is overly simplistic and none of your conclusions are backed by science.

It's true that HOA people are admixed according to genetic studies, but this is the result of two prehistoric groups coming into contact and has nothing to do with "Arabs" or any such nonsense.

The African Ethiopic ancestry is tightly restricted to HOA populations and likely represents an autochthonous HOA population. The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia. The Ethio-Somali ancestry is found in all admixed HOA ethnic groups, shows little inter-individual variance within these ethnic groups, is estimated to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries by at least 23 ka, and does not carry the unique Arabian lactase persistence allele that arose about 4 ka. Taking into account published mitochondrial, Y chromosome, paleoclimate, and archaeological data, we find that the time of the Ethio-Somali back-to-Africa migration is most likely pre-agricultural.

Basically the African DNA in HOA people is indigenous (autochthonous) to the Horn and from a distinct group of people of whom we are the only descendants. The "West Eurasian" DNA is also from a distinct group of people who are significantly different from any of the modem day West Eurasians. It seems like they migrated back into the Horn after having left it.

All of this supposedly took place pre-agriculture and there's no telling how people might've looked and what their skin color was like. You can't just super-impose modern racial categories on people who literally lived in pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer communities and then make overly simplistic conclusions based on that. It's a very flawed and superficial way of interpreting the data.

With these data, we demonstrate that most non-African ancestry in the HOA cannot be the result of admixture within the last few thousand years, and that the majority of admixture probably occurred prior to the advent of agriculture. These results contribute to a growing body of work showing that prehistoric hunter-gatherer populations were much more dynamic than usually assumed.

Early Back-to-Africa Migration into the Horn of Africa

As for ancient Egypt, then the only people who can really claim a direct link to that civilization are modern day Nubians and Egyptians. It doesn't mean that neighboring populations had no influence.

And it doesn't mean that Egyptians (especially the earliest dynasties) did not have black skin. But it is ridiculous to suggest that a Niger-Congo speaker from Ghana or Nigeria has more claim to Egypt than a modern day Egyptian copt or a Nubian.
 
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EndDomination

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Not to be rude at all, but I don't think the ancient Egyptians being "Black African" was ever really under question, I thought the question of how long it was a "Black African" state, because as most ancient heavy trade/developing areas, it has frequent populations of foreigners (Romans, Greeks, Palestinean Arab/"Hebrews"/etc, that changed the composition. This isn't to forget mentioning the Egyptians themselves were also frequently warring and changed their own composition through slavery.
 

Karb

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Not to be rude at all, but I don't think the ancient Egyptians being "Black African" was ever really under question, I thought the question of how long it was a "Black African" state, because as most ancient heavy trade/developing areas, it has frequent populations of foreigners (Romans, Greeks, Palestinean Arab/"Hebrews"/etc, that changed the composition. This isn't to forget mentioning the Egyptians themselves were also frequently warring and changed their own composition through slavery.

I only read the last few posts so i apologize for jumping to conclusions.
 
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