European vs North American description of the Moors

[Swagnificent]

When did I say Moors or Berbers were white? Again your reading comprehension proves to be mediocre. In one of my early posts I said that Moors were a mix of Berbers (tanned people) and Black Africans.

this cac is really going through each step of the cac playbook. can't call somebody white, do the next best thing make up a race.

You obviously have a limited understanding of the world were you separate people into either white or black. That isn't the case for me nor is it for most people out there. I do not consider Egyptians as white, why don't you go to one and tell him he is white and let us know his reaction?

Seriously have you ever traveled outside the USA?

No. I think you are the one with the limited understand of the world and thinking there is some essentialism in racial categories. Race is but a social construct. So what people in other countries think of themselves or people in the past thought is irrelevant. All that matters is what we in our society think. I never said Egyptians, Persians, or any other group is absolutely white or black in all circumstances. If you notice, I couch all my arguments in what we in contemporary American society would perceive them as.

I mentioned already that the Greeks thought of themselves as a different race than the Germans. Do I think so? No. but thats because I'm using our present day social construct of race.

First of all you need to stop comparing the slave trade of North Africa to the one of South America.
Secondly, logic would have it that a lot more modern day Berbers should be black if North Africans didn't mind reproducing with black people.

What you fail to understand is that more black people went through the slave ports of North Africa than white people. If you believe that the white slaves had an affect on the looks of North Africans then so should the black slaves since they numbered more.

You guys don't even know what you're saying now

smh. are you really a Somalian? because everything you've said reads like a cac. I feel sorry for you. Could some of the other east african nikkas on this site please educate this boy cause he's lost. I know my nikka @2Quik4UHoes drops knowledge in threads like this.

Or maybe expose this cac.

Germanic tribes posed a thread to Rome and were in constant conflict with them, it's called propaganda.
Ibn Khaldun was the descendant of an Andalusian family, the Berbers were not in conflict with sub-saharan tribes so why would Ibn Khaldun insult them in such ways?

just as I thought. you definitely a cac. the thought of whites being considered subhuman. PROPAGANDA. the thought of black people being considered subhuman. maybe its true.

Here we go again with the 2-bit view of the world, what school did you go to breh? Let me check something with you. Based on your dumbed down version of the world, would you say Taiwanese people are black or white? What about Pakistanis? Bengalis?

All I meant earlier was to challenge the white supremacist notions of limiting blackness while making whiteness vast. I simply said you could make the argument that Sri Lankans are black if Italians/Swedes are considered white. The only groups I consider black in the world are: africans, negritos, papau new guineans, andaman islanders, austrailian aborigines, and descendants of the diaspora. basically if you look black, I consider you black.

 

[Poitier]

North America isn't as pure as you'd think. Even when accounting for the White immigrants that came in the 20th century, the White American has 10-15 percent Sub-Saharan ancestry. The Black American ranges from 15-20 percent European ancestry and up to 5 percent Native ancestry. Let's not forget that the average White American is a product of Western, Eastern and Southern European admixture, all different groups of people.

For example, you had stuff like this going on in the Southeast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaçage

And I hate that people assume that all admixture is due to rape. Some of the White ancestry in my bloodline is a product of a Black man marrying a White women 4 generations back. There are very few places where you can go and find "purity" and definitely not North Africa.

 

[Swagnificent]

Here is the quote you fool. Can't you see North Africa being mentioned in the same sentence? On top of that in a few times prior between me the other breh.


And how did I get schooled on South America when its scenario was completely different than the one in North Africa, something which you're still ignoring.

this is you one page ago

@ArtaXerXes lol at thinking the enslaving of a people can change the way a population looks like.

Europeans enslaved black people for centuries but the majority of them remained white. Why would you think Berbers would all of a sudden become mixed due to their enslaving of white people? If i used your logic then Europeans living in America should look mixed themselves.

You guys make no sense whatsoever, think about what you type before posting it. Wishing that the Moors were strickly black won't make it happen. The current population of North Africa is still Berber and only Arab by name.

you said this bullshyt and got schooled quickly. your argument was basically saying, we had white people in America they brought over 10 million african slaves. they are still white. why is it that the berbers changed from black to white (after slavery) but the americans didn't.

Akhi your being very dense here, how have 10 million slaves brought to America not change the looks of the aboriginal people in Brazil, Caribbean and other places?

Also what is berber?

Also unlike America( you being Somalian should know this), tamajq speakers work on culture, not race that makes you tamajq.

then you got schooled right here when my nikka pointed out that African slaves brought to the Americas did change the race of many in south america. and I explained why it didn't happen AS MUCH in North America (the anti-miscegination laws)

now you're trying to change the topic to something I don't even understand. what are these 10 million black slaves moving through north africa? where did they go? could you please show me some links?

 

[Swagnificent]

Smh do you even read the contents of posts or do you just block off the bits you don't like?

no we read it. you are the one talking in circles about shyt you don't understand.

who are these 10 million black slaves moving through NORTH AFRICA. the only slave trades I know about in Africa were the ones that moved through the Atlantic Ocean and the east african slave trade through zanzibar.

please enlighten us on these 10 million africans that went through NORTH AFRICA. where did they go?

 

[Ikwa]

this cac is really going through each step of the cac playbook. can't call somebody white, do the next best thing make up a race.

Calling me a cac is all you have left after I've destroyed every single argument of yours. Then again considering that you see the world as either black or white I couldn't possibly expect you to understand that there is more than those 2 colours out there. Did you know that light skin people in South Africa are referred to as 'coloured people' by black people and aren't considered black?

No. I think you are the one with the limited understand of the world and thinking there is some essentialism in racial categories. Race is but a social construct. So what people in other countries think of themselves or people in the past thought is irrelevant. All that matters is what we in our society think. I never said Egyptians, Persians, or any other group is absolutely white or black in all circumstances. If you notice, I couch all my arguments in what we in contemporary American society would perceive them as.

Wow, that's pretty damn ignorant right there. Why should the American way be the one that matters? Besides I'm not from America but I'm pretty sure people out there don't have your 2-bit view of the world. I hope not.

smh. are you really a Somalian? because everything you've said reads like a cac. I feel sorry for you. Could some of the other east african nikkas on this site please educate this boy cause he's lost. I know my nikka @2Quik4UHoes drops knowledge in threads like this.

Or maybe expose this cac.

That's funny considering I have more African blood in me than you, I was actually born on the continent unlike you.

just as I thought. you definitely a cac. the thought of whites being considered subhuman. PROPAGANDA. the thought of black people being considered subhuman. maybe its true.

Good Lord, this is like talking to an 8 year old that doesn't have the slightest idea of the world operates. When two nations are in conflict or on the brink of a war they create propaganda against the other, this is a tactic used all over the world since the beginning of time.Furthermore you failed to understand my post, yet again. Ibn Khaldun was not in conflict with sub-saharan africans so why would he refer to them in such manners while praising the berbers if they were the same people? Tik Tok is your brain functioning?

no we read it. you are the one talking in circles about shyt you don't understand.

who are these 10 million black slaves moving through NORTH AFRICA. the only slave trades I know about in Africa were the ones that moved through the Atlantic Ocean and the east african slave trade through zanzibar.

please enlighten us on these 10 million africans that went through NORTH AFRICA. where did they go?

Once again you're exposing your lack of knowledge on the subject, you really are making a fool of yourself. Here is the slave trade you never heard of.

The slave trade had existed in North Africa since antiquity, with a supply of African slaves arriving through trans-Saharan trade routes. The towns on the North African coast were recorded inRoman times for their slave markets, and this trend continued into the medieval age. The Barbary Coast increased in influence in the 15th century when the Ottoman Empire took over as rulers of the area. Coupled with this was an influx of Moorish refugees, newly expelled from Spain after the Reconquista. With Ottoman protection and a host of destitute immigrants, the coastline soon became reputed for piracy. Crews from the seized ships were either enslaved or ransomed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

Here are the white slaves captured by North Africans

Reports of Barbary raids and kidnappings of those in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, England, Ireland, Scotland as far north as Iceland exist from between the 16th to the 19th centuries. It is estimated that between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured by pirates and sold as slaves in Africa during this time period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

I really am wasting my time on you here.

 

[Ikwa]

this is you one page ago



you said this bullshyt and got schooled quickly. your argument was basically saying, we had white people in America they brought over 10 million african slaves. they are still white. why is it that the berbers changed from black to white (after slavery) but the americans didn't.




then you got schooled right here when my nikka pointed out that African slaves brought to the Americas did change the race of many in south america. and I explained why it didn't happen AS MUCH in North America (the anti-miscegination laws)

now you're trying to change the topic to something I don't even understand. what are these 10 million black slaves moving through north africa? where did they go? could you please show me some links?

Cotdamn you're stupid.

The whole argument started when the other breh said that the 1.5 million white slaves that went through North Africa had an affect on the native's looks. I said that if that was the case (not agreeing with it) then the much larger number of black slaves that went through North Africa should have had an even greater affect on the local population.

How hard is that to understand you? Here is my post.

Like you said 1.25 million white people went through the barbary slave trade compared to over 10 million sub-saharan Africans. If we use your logic then the inhabitants of North Africa should predominantly be black today.

Do I have to put everything on a plate for you to understand?

 

[Gifted one]

@Swagnificent @Malik @Slang Dussain Ali @Poitier @ArtaXerXes droppin heat in this thread

 

[Swagnificent]

Cotdamn you're stupid.

The whole argument started when the other breh said that the 1.5 million white slaves that went through North Africa had an affect on the native's looks. I said that if that was the case (not agreeing with it) then the much larger number of black slaves that went through North Africa should have had an even greater affect on the local population.

How hard is that to understand you? Here is my post.

Do I have to put everything on a plate for you to understand?

Lets stop with the personal jabs and simply discuss the issues. I'm actually interested in learning more about these 10 million black slaves in North Africa. The problem is other than for your word, I can't find any evidence online.

Where are you getting this 10 million number from? I know that between 9-11 million slaves were brought to the Americas. The link you provided on the Barbary slave trade only mentioned that they had slaves from many different places. There were no numbers (other than the 1-1.5 million europeans estimate). I did a quick google search and there is nothing about 10 million black slaves being sent to North Africa. The closest I found to any numbers estimate was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million peoples were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Africa across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara desert

But then again this is about the Arab slave trade in GENERAL. Definitely not the Barbary slave trade into north africa you seem to be focused on.

 

[Swagnificent]

Calling me a cac is all you have left after I've destroyed every single argument of yours. Then again considering that you see the world as either black or white I couldn't possibly expect you to understand that there is more than those 2 colours out there. Did you know that light skin people in South Africa are referred to as 'coloured people' by black people and aren't considered black?

Wow, that's pretty damn ignorant right there. Why should the American way be the one that matters? Besides I'm not from America but I'm pretty sure people out there don't have your 2-bit view of the world. I hope not.

I'm assuming you are in America right now? correct? if so, then the racial construct of the place you live in matters. if a south african "colored person" comes to America, they'd be considered black, not colored. If Vanessa Williams went to south africa, the reverse would be true.

I'm not here to convince you one view is right and the other is wrong. I'm simply arguing that AMERICAN WHITES are being disingenuous when they try to make people that they would call black in almost any other situation into non-black when it fits the purposes of white supremacy.

 

[Malik]

America isn't a good example for this. And you know why. There were ANTI-MISCEGENATION laws in many of the southern states that outlawed whites from having children with blacks. That still didn't stop white slave masters from raping black women hence the large amount of light skin and mixed black people in America compared to many native African populations. However, the laws against interbreeding as well as the ideology of racial supremacy is the reason Americans whites aren't very mixed.

In countries like Brazil where there weren't those laws, you saw alot more mixing between the races. And the face of the average Brazilian does look very different than the white colonial masters that came there.

In fact Brazil is the best example of how a nation can change rapidly in just 500 years.

Another thing, America has only been around for 300 years. In another 500-700 years, which is the timeframe you two are talking about here by comparing the modern and ancient berbers, Americans will definitely not look the same. That guy lost his mind The country will be very, very, very brown 500 years from now. Like Brazil. National Geographic posted these images of what Americans might look like 50 years from now. Let alone centuries

I can almost see people tryna classify these four people 100 years from The first guy is black. The girl is biracial. The third kid looks a bit hispanic. The fourth kid is whiteish. Race will be a clusterfukk in the future

 

[Deluuxe]

Ivan Van Sertima mentioned that of the 7000 Africans that crossed over in 711 6700 were black africans and the other 300 arabian/miscellaneous, smething like that. Here's the full lecture you should watch the whole thing if you can but he starts talking about the moors around 48:40

 

[Ikwa]

@Swagnificent
North Africa was part of the Sub-Saharan slave trade where up to 18 million people were enslaved.

The North African slave trade was already happening during the time when Romans ruled North Africa. White slaves started being captured around the 16th century, that's about 9 centuries after the removal of Romans from North Africa.

I shouldn't have used a definite number but my point still remains. You can't act as if white slaves could impact the natives' looks but not black slaves althought they were going through the NA markets for a longer time.

As for your second post I disagree with you. People should be able to decide what they are, I don't accept the American or white man's way.

What if where I lived people said African Americans are not real Africans (just an example), would you accept that? I'm sure you wouldn't let somebody else decide what you are.

Anyway I'm out of this thread, I don't even know why i'm wasting so much time on this.

 

[MostReal]

For example, you had stuff like this going on in the Southeast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaçage

And I hate that people assume that all admixture is due to rape. Some of the White ancestry in my bloodline is a product of a Black man marrying a White women 4 generations back. There are very few places where you can go and find "purity" and definitely not North Africa.

my family is from this as well

 

[Swagnificent]

@Swagnificent
North Africa was part of the Sub-Saharan slave trade where up to 18 million people were enslaved.

The North African slave trade was already happening during the time when Romans ruled North Africa. White slaves started being captured around the 16th century, that's about 9 centuries after the removal of Romans from North Africa.

I shouldn't have used a definite number but my point still remains. You can't act as if white slaves could impact the natives' looks but not black slaves althought they were going through the NA markets for a longer time.

just as I thought. pulling shyt out ya ass and stating it like its a fact. give it up breh. you been annihilated in this thread. We cite facts. Your the one that made up 10 million to support your fallacious assertions.

instead of trying to make reality fit into your warped views, how bout you look at the evidence objectively and just accept the evidence as is. why would the arabs and greek call your countrymen berbers and the place you come from Land of the Berbers, if you and other black africans like the Beja, Tuareg, Nubians, etc. DID NOT resemble the pure ancient unmixed berbers of the past? why would the europeans use the word moor as a synonym for black if the moors were not essentially a black african group?

you have yet to answer either question with a reasonable responses. all you've done is claim that the arabs/greeks and other ancient sources calling Somalians berbers and Somalia "Land of the Berbers" as just a "silly nickname." you have cited no evidence that the moors where anything but a black group.

all you've done is make assertions without any evidence. when confronted with actual facts, you responses have been conjecture or in the case we have here LIES.

As for your second post I disagree with you. People should be able to decide what they are, I don't accept the American or white man's way.

What if where I lived people said African Americans are not real Africans (just an example), would you accept that? I'm sure you wouldn't let somebody else decide what you are.

Anyway I'm out of this thread, I don't even know why i'm wasting so much time on this.

If some guy who looks like Tiger Woods, Barack Obama or any mixed light skin black walk down the streets of America, he's treated as a black man. He can say he don't wanna be black and that he's cablasian. But in the end of the day, our race is determined by how the outside world perceives us not what we want. Sure it would be nice if we could decide. Hell I'm sure most black people in the past woulda chosen to be anything but black. Unfortunately thats not how it works here. No matter how light skin we were, in this country, we're all nikkas.

I'm just unwilling to let crakkkas play the game where anyone with any identifiable black heritage is black in America when it comes to discrimination. But when we look back through history, all of a sudden different rules apply. If you really are black, you can at least see why we have a problem with this? right?

 

[bouncy]

I'm assuming you are in America right now? correct? if so, then the racial construct of the place you live in matters. if a south african "colored person" comes to America, they'd be considered black, not colored. If Vanessa Williams went to south africa, the reverse would be true.

I'm not here to convince you one view is right and the other is wrong. I'm simply arguing that AMERICAN WHITES are being disingenuous when they try to make people that they would call black in almost any other situation into non-black when it fits the purposes of white supremacy.

And what he is ignoring is the "colored" are in a fukked up position as the "blacks". That alone tells you that "colored" shyt is made up. The white racists structure sees us as the same because we are. We just come up with shyt to seperate us to feed our ego and mask our pain.