'Draymond's the greatest defender in NBA history' - ex-NBA player who played with Bill Russell

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

lol at bron putting up video game stat # in the finals vs the best defender in the world yet he cant get anyrthing going against Kawahi in the finals

Yeah let's ignore the fact that:

- Draymond wasn't LeBron's primary defender - Iggy/Barnes were tasked with guarding him
- LeBron shot considerably worse against the Warriors (at full-strength) than he did against the Spurs - especially in 2015 - which can largely be attributed to Draymond as he allowed Iggy to play aggressive D on LeBron, while acting as a safety net. Also adding, when Draymond did defend LeBron during the Finals, he held him to low shooting %s all over the court, and forced a # of turnovers.
- Kawhi's only job was to defend LeBron (and he didn't do it alone - he had a ton of help), whereas Draymond had to guard the Cavs big men, anchor the paint, provide help defense, protect the rim, switch out on ball handlers, guard the PnR, box out and crash the glass, run the defense and cover up any mistakes/miscues. All things that a defensive anchor typically needs to do.



Look at all the help Kawhi receives. He's most certainly not doing it alone, especially given the fact that Duncan was still arguably their most important defender during those two Finals', and the fact that the Spurs' defensive scheme is one of the best in the modern era.

This is from earlier in the season, to give you an insight on Draymond's defensive impact v Cavs:

13 points allowed
4/15 DFG (held the Cavs to 26% shooting on attempted shots)
Forced four turnovers

Held LeBron to 33% shooting when guarding him.

And that was a subpar game for him defensively, especially since he was getting called for ticky-tack shyt all throughout that game - he actually had a better defensive performance against the Cavs in their second matchup.

There's a # of posessions in this video of his defense against the Cavs in the Finals -



And I must ask - why are you only judging this on their defensive efforts vs Cleveland? Shouldn't you judge what they do against other teams as well?

This is why I say Leonard is #1. At the end of the day, this is a SF league and he locks down SF's but let's be clear, Green does have the most impact and that can't be denied but I would love to see him v. prime KG and Duncan.

That's not how defensive impact is measured.

 

[ThaGlow]

Dray is a talented defender. But if we going by the eye test, their first 2 finals, it seemed like Bogut was an important factor defensively in the finals too. Well actually in 2015 they benched him for David Lee for offensive purposes.

Anyway, when Draymond was suspended for game 5 last season, people still believed Warriors would close it out at Oracle.

After Bogut got injured in game 5 and Cavs won, people dared to believe "oh shyt the Cavs might actually come back from 3-1 now".

Not saying Bogut is the better defender, but him going down game 5 was huge. But I guess it depends if you're talking every game or just the playoffs/finals. Dray clearly is the more talented player.

 

[BigMoneyGrip]

Draymond is an elite defender and that triple double on just scoring 4 pts will prob get him DPOY

Every championship team had at least 1 elite defender, Miami had 2 when they won, GS got 2 elite defenders now and #1 as a team in defense

Cavs gonna quickly find out how useless D. Will is

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Dray is a talented defender. But if we going by the eye test, their first 2 finals, it seemed like Bogut was an important factor defensively in the finals too. Well actually in 2015 they benched him for David Lee for offensive purposes.

You have a bad recollection of what happened during those Finals', especially since Bogut was actually benched for Iguodala, and not Lee (Green moved to the 5). I dare ask how the hell did you come to the conclusion Bogut had just as much defensive impact as Green in the Finals, when he was benched after the Cavs went up 2-1, and only played THREE minutes for the rest of the series - all the while the Warriors went on to win three straight.

Cavs ORTG in G1 - 103.8 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G2 - 94.6 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G3 - 105.6 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G4 - 92.4 (Bogut benched and only played three minutes with Draymond starting at the 5)
Cavs ORTG in G5 - 101.4 (Bogut benched and didn't play with Draymond starting at the 5)
Cavs ORTG in G6 - 100.1 (Bogut benched and didn't play with Draymond starting at the 5)

Fact - the Warriors defense had more success when Bogut was benched and Draymond started at the 5.

Anyway, when Draymond was suspended for game 5 last season, people still believed Warriors would close it out at Oracle.

I don't see how this is relevant.

After Bogut got injured in game 5 and Cavs won, people dared to believe "oh shyt the Cavs might actually come back from 3-1 now".

That's because when Bogut got injured in G5, the Warriors starting frontcourt was out (no Green and no Bogut) and the Cavs were in prime position to make the series 3-2; heading back home for G6.

Not saying Bogut is the better defender, but him going down game 5 was huge. But I guess it depends if you're talking every game or just the playoffs/finals. Dray clearly is the more talented player.

 

[Niqqa You Gay]

For all the 33+ posters that dapped this, can any of y'all state Kawhi's case for being a better defender?

Because they think he is. Why you always wanna argue?
smh @ dap tracking

 

[Jplaya2023]

I'll play your silly game - even though Green can guard big back to the basket big men, and he can guard ballhandlers for an entire game, throughout a series; let's for argument's sake say that he can't. Now my question would be to you is (since you're using Pippen as a reference here), could Pippen protect the rim and anchor the paint all throughout a series like Draymond can?

what series was green guarding the PG and playing him full court for basically the duration of the series. What great back to the basket big in TODAY's game has green guarded for basically the duration of the game.

Now, could scottie pippen playing in his era guard the paint? No absolutely not. There were true Centers and PFs that would manhandle him. Could scottie pippen in today's NBA play some 5 in small ball lineups and guard effectively? absolutely. Especially bigs who float on the perimeter and wouldn't punish him in the paint.

Now could draymon green hold the paint down in the 90s against frontcourt tandems like Shaq, Ho Grant, Akeem, Otis Thorpe, Robinson and Worm, Ewing, Mason & Oakley? Hell to the nah

 

[Jplaya2023]

He's better than Leonard, have you not been reading all the evidence in this thread? And why is it offensive to say he's better than Pippen?

When draymond green is asked to score 25 a game and he keeps up his same defense then you can discuss him and leonard. It's ridiculous that folks are comparing a 4th 5th option offensively to the main guy who just won back to back DPOY and has become a top 7 player in the league at worse.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

what series was green guarding the PG and playing him full court for basically the duration of the series.

Not only did you not pay attention to the "let's for argument's sake say that he can't" comment, but you're asking a question you already know the answer to. Question is, what would it prove if he did guard a PG for the duration of a series? What purpose would that serve to his team when they need him to be their defensive anchor in the frontcourt?

Now, could scottie pippen playing in his era guard the paint? No absolutely not. There were true Centers and PFs that would manhandle him. Could scottie pippen in today's NBA play some 5 in small ball lineups and guard effectively? absolutely. Especially bigs who float on the perimeter and wouldn't punish him in the paint.

As great as Pippen was, he's not playing at the 5 and fulfiling all the roles that Draymond does with the same effectiveness. And miss me with that "true" Center and PFs bullshyt. Draymond's been guardng 7fters. Draymond's been guarding face-up, post-up and spot-up bigs, Draymond's been guarding elite-offensive bigs for the last 2-3 seasons. His defensve skillset would translate over to any era.

Now could draymon green hold the paint down in the 90s against frontcourt tandems like Shaq, Ho Grant, Akeem, Otis Thorpe, Robinson and Worm, Ewing, Mason & Oakley? Hell to the nah

Did you just reference Rodman, Oakley, Horace and Mason as if they were some dominant offensive players?

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

When draymond green is asked to score 25 a game and he keeps up his same defense then you can discuss him and leonard.

Let me address the problems with this:

I. For starters, Draymond has arguably the heaviest defensive workload in the league - Kawhi's doesn't even come close. You can't just say when Draymond puts up the same PPG as Kawhi and keeps the same defense, like somehow their respective defensive workloads are equal.
II. While Draymond may not score 25 a game, he's leading the Warriors in assists - meaning he has one of the main playmaking workloads for the team. And this is without mentioning all the # of screens he sets and PnRs he's involved in, cutting to the rim, competing for OREB and general hustle activity in the halfcourt. Yes, Kawhi has a bigger scoring load, but if you were to compare their offensive workloads/activity - the margin wouldn't be that great.

Kawhi travels 1.39 mils per game on offense
Draymond travels 1.1 miles per game on offense

It's ridiculous that folks are comparing a 4th 5th option offensively to the main guy who just won back to back DPOY and has become a top 7 player in the league at worse.

You do realize that when I say he's better than Kawhi, I'm talking about him being a better defender, and not a better player right?

 

[ThaGlow]

You have a bad recollection of what happened during those Finals', especially since Bogut was actually benched for Iguodala, and not Lee (Green moved to the 5). I dare ask how the hell did you come to the conclusion Bogut had just as much defensive impact as Green in the Finals, when he was benched after the Cavs went up 2-1, and only played THREE minutes for the rest of the series - all the while the Warriors went on to win three straight.

Cavs ORTG in G1 - 103.8 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G2 - 94.6 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G3 - 105.6 (with Bogut starting)
Cavs ORTG in G4 - 92.4 (Bogut benched and only played three minutes with Draymond starting at the 5)
Cavs ORTG in G5 - 101.4 (Bogut benched and didn't play with Draymond starting at the 5)
Cavs ORTG in G6 - 100.1 (Bogut benched and didn't play with Draymond starting at the 5)

Fact - the Warriors defense had more success when Bogut was benched and Draymond started at the 5.

I don't see how this is relevant.

That's because when Bogut got injured in G5, the Warriors starting frontcourt was out (no Green and no Bogut) and the Cavs were in prime position to make the series 3-2; heading back home for G6.

I don't have to look at the Draymond compilation vids or anything. Dude does his thing. All I know is Warriors bigman went down and Cavs morale went up, Lebron and Kyrie went super Saiyan.

Bogut was a non factor in their first finals so they benched him. Clearly they needed his size the second time around that's why he played.

As for game 6 at Cleveland, that don't mean anything seeing as Warriors just beat them there in game 4. Besides, Green will be chomping at the bit to go ham. Unless..... you factoring in no Bogut.

Lol but it's cool if he's the best ever.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Let me address the problems with this:

I. For starters, Draymond has arguably the heaviest defensive workload in the league - Kawhi's doesn't even come close. You can't just say when Draymond puts up the same PPG as Kawhi and keeps the same defense, like somehow their respective defensive workloads are equal.
II. While Draymond may not score 25 a game, he's leading the Warriors in assists - meaning he has one of the main playmaking workloads for the team. And this is without mentioning all the # of screens he sets and PnRs he's involved in, cutting to the rim, competing for OREB and general hustle activity in the halfcourt. Yes, Kawhi has a bigger scoring load, but if you were to compare their offensive workloads/activity - the margin wouldn't be that great.

Kawhi travels 1.39 mils per game on offense
Draymond travels 1.1 miles per game on offense

You do realize that when I say he's better than Kawhi, I'm talking about him being a better defender, and not a better player right?

I understand, Leonard isn't asked to guard the paint like green is (fair point), but Leonard can guard 1-4's in this league effectively. Green is leading them in dimes no doubt, but when your playing with the 2 best shooters arguably ever and one of the 5 best scorers ever assist shouldn't be hard to come by.

Remember leonard has the entire defense leaning on stopping him, while green has been left open so many times in the past by teams he could be andre roberson. You talk about activity, and from the naked eye you can say well they both run X amount of miles per game, but it's different type of pressure leonard faces every night compared to green offensively. Leonard has to be great or they likely lose. That extra pressure could make you more exhausted or press even harder. This type of pressure is immeasurable and not something you can put a statistic on.

Right i get it your talking about defense only, but let me ask you this, if you put leonard on the warriors and green on the spurs, which player would maintain his offense without sacrificing his defense and which player would struggle more???? Green IS PERFECT for the warriors, but if you put him on a different team he would be a lot less effective on BOTH OFFENSE AND DEFENSE than he would in GS

 

[Malta]

I understand, Leonard isn't asked to guard the paint like green is (fair point), but Leonard can guard 1-4's in this league effectively. Green is leading them in dimes no doubt, but when your playing with the 2 best shooters arguably ever and one of the 5 best scorers ever assist shouldn't be hard to come by.

Remember leonard has the entire defense leaning on stopping him, while green has been left open so many times in the past by teams he could be andre roberson. You talk about activity, and from the naked eye you can say well they both run X amount of miles per game, but it's different type of pressure leonard faces every night compared to green offensively. Leonard has to be great or they likely lose. That extra pressure could make you more exhausted or press even harder. This type of pressure is immeasurable and not something you can put a statistic on.

Right i get it your talking about defense only, but let me ask you this, if you put leonard on the warriors and green on the spurs, which player would maintain his offense without sacrificing his defense and which player would struggle more???? Green IS PERFECT for the warriors, but if you put him on a different team he would be a lot less effective on BOTH OFFENSE AND DEFENSE than he would in GS

Why does this apply to Green, yet you never say this about Rodman?

Why don't you hold Rodman to the same standard of needing to score that you're holding to Green? When you talk about Rodman and how great his defense was you never say a word about his lack of offense.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Why does this apply to Green, yet you never say this about Rodman?

Why don't you hold Rodman to the same standard of needing to score that you're holding to Green? When you talk about Rodman and how great his defense was you never say a word about his lack of offense.

No one was overrating dennis like they do green. I think green is a great defender, but when people are saying green can guard 1-5's no problem i take exception to that.

Plus dennis did the thing for 5 championship teams on 2 different teams, i don't think dray could go to a different team and still hold the same defensive impact if he's asked to score more.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I don't have to look at the Draymond compilation vids or anything. Dude does his thing. All I know is Warriors bigman went down and Cavs morale went up, Lebron and Kyrie went super Saiyan.

That was a combinaton of Draymond being suspended in G5, Bogut getting injured in G5 and not playing again, and Iggy getting injured in G6 and being limited for the rest of the series (LeBron was held to 43% shooting when the Wariors had their normal rotation, with Iggy on the court, over the first four games). It's no secret that LeBron only started going off once the Warriors had a # of defensive players either out or playing injured.

Bogut was a non factor in their first finals so they benched him. Clearly they needed his size the second time around that's why he played.

Of course they did, because we saw all garbage Ezeli was. But I'm still trying to figure out why you'd bring up Bogut of all people, in this thread.

As for game 6 at Cleveland, that don't mean anything seeing as Warriors just beat them there in game 4. Besides, Green will be chomping at the bit to go ham. Unless..... you factoring in no Bogut. .

That was all upended when Iggy injured his back before G6, and couldn't guard LeBron like he did over the first half of the series. Draymond was doing all that he could during that game, but there were too many leaks on the defensive end - he couldn't plug them all. It wasn't the fact that they missed Bogut's defense as a standalone, it wasn't the fact they missed Iggy's usual defense as a standalone - it was a combination of both. They probably would've won if only one was injured, and not both.

 

[Malta]

No one was overrating dennis like they do green. I think green is a great defender, but when people are saying green can guard 1-5's no problem i take exception to that.

Plus dennis did the thing for 5 championship teams on 2 different teams, i don't think dray could go to a different team and still hold the same defensive impact if he's asked to score more.

You overrate Dennis all the time, anytime there's a thread about greatest defenders ever you put his name up there, yet only playing one side of the ball doesn't seem to matter when it's Rodman being talked about.

You can't have it both ways, you can't sit around and talk about Green's offense when you don't do the same for Rodman. And yes, Green would make several other teams title contenders because having an elite defensive PF that can also run the offense is basically a 1 player deal in the league.