Dr. Tommy Curry - Failure of Black Studies and Intersectionality

[xoxodede]

Representation of oppression in media doesn't equate to anything tangible and the emphasis on that as a point is quite telling of what someone finds important.

Not sure if that was directed to me or not - but if so - I didn't bring up representation in media. I responded to it.

But, representation of oppression in media does indeed equate to tangibility. It always have. We already know that media is a tool and informing, putting a spotlight and call to action on oppression is key. It can and often times led to action - even if that action and change even if it isn't immediately seen/known.

Examples:
The deaths of BM and boys
The profiling of BM and boys
The police brutality of BM and boys
The mass incarnation and false indictments of BM and boys

 

[SonnyEMC]

Not sure if that was directed to me or not - but if so - I didn't bring up representation in media. I responded to it.

But, representation of oppression in media does indeed equate to tangibility. It always have. We already know that media is a tool and informing, putting a spotlight and call to action on oppression is key. It can and often times led to action - even if that action and change even if it isn't immediately seen/known.

Examples:
The deaths of BM and boys
The profiling of BM and boys
The police brutality of BM and boys
The mass incarnation and false indictments of BM and boys

What are these tangible benefits?

Did those things stop?

 

[satam55]

Is NY Times Right Are Black Women Doing Better Financially Than Black Men https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfGyt...

Black men are at the bottom of the economic ladder. That’s why I won’t stop being a helicopter parent to my black son. https://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...

 

[Ya?]

The issue is that we as Black males are talking about being viable human beings.

Black men are not viable human beings.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then have half a million Black men in prison.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then we can't graduate high school.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs yet Black women are more likely to be higher educated and the breadwinner.

Those are not patriarchal qualities.

The issue that Black women who parrot this idea of a Black patriarchy, they don't look at Black people through the lens of what Black life is actually like.

They look at Black life like it's White life.

Theres nothing patriarchal about a group of people that don't even marry.

We don't even marry each other.

We don't even have consistent nuclear family structures.

My point about the Black women issues thing is that Black women issues are never brought up in a quantitative manner and when they are addressed in the context of Black men issues...it's always a non-sequitir and it's always in a way to make the Black male identity disappear.

Cause let's be honest. Black male issues are Black community issues and Black female issues are Black female issues.

Black men are treated like Black people until we are we are not and then our identity pathologized.

A prime example of this is domestic violence. Black men can kill each other all that and the moment a Black man lays a hand on a Black woman and then we are toxic males, brutes and patriarchal.

And my thing is, if Black feminists actually would look it up, Black women lay hands on Black men just the same.

But if we bring that up and then we get accused of misogynoir and etc.

Black feminists have done a very evil and despicable thing.

Black people can't be talked badly about, Black women can't be talked badly about but Black men can.

Mike Brown is a Black person when he gets shot in the streets but he's a Black man if his girlfriend accuses him of beating her ass. Then he's a piece of shyt toxic male, Black patriarch, example of misogynoir and etc.

What is a Black woman that starves her daughter nearly to death?

We don't have these ideological frameworks to pathologize Black women because it is considered morally wrong.

If the same shyt Black feminists today say about Black men was said by a White talking head on Fox, that man would be considered racist.

But a Black woman says it we supposed to hear her out.

The funny shyt, the thing that Black feminists have been duped into. The reason why Black women are at risk for rape, assault, and etc higher than other women is because y'all don't have a patriarchy.

We live a White dominated patriarchal society and guess what...they can't have other patriarchies...

Black women have let White misrepresent their historical legacy. Black women always had higher labor force participation. Black women were at the threat of rape in ways that are unspeakable. There never was any legal redress.

White women never had to work cause her man took care of her. The very thought of a White women being raped sent White men into a frenzy to form lynch mobs.

That's what patriarchy actually looks like.

Patriarchy has law and order, protection and benefits for women.

Black feminists have let White women sell them a fukking sob story.

Boohoo I can't go to work.

Boohoo my husband fukks me when I don't want to

Black woman work cause she has to.

Black woman husband got sold down the river and ain't seen him in a decade.

That's what not having a patriarchy looks like.

I don't want a patriarchy but a patriarchy is better than whatever we have right now.

I personally do not care to unify with anyone that stands between me and my people having a happy life.

I like divisiveness. Whats the point in trying to stick together? This is politics, there are winners and losers and Black men have been losing the gender war.

We thought it was a game. A bunch of movies and books.

We didn't think of the real world consequences because we thought we need to unify and listen to the other side.

Black feminists have created a 50 year argument straight out of Jim Crow about why Black men are a existential threat to their existence.

The shyt reads exactly like what White men said about Black men in the 1800s.

Black men should've nipped this in the bud in the 70s.

We should've learned our lesson with White people. But we think because we all Black it's different and it's not.

Why put everything at the feet of black feminists? What does a bm addressing another bm for what they are not doing look like in real life?

And if as you claim the problem are black feminists, than what is a black feminist free black community look like and what problems will it solve?

You claim bm address each other. I don't see it, I see a lot of bm who have the means to who are quick to jump ship to go other peoples communities and wash themselves off 'black problems'. And the men who are left behind putting everything at the hands of women out of some male code.

I don't see men address male c00ns who are extremely detrimental to the black community global as thoroughly as they enjoy addressing bw who we all agree are powerless. You claim that black women issues only are black female issues and black men issues are black community issues. Interesting, I'd say black male betrayal and lack of self preservation has pushed black people into a state of extreme fragility. There are black communities without the evil black feminism and I don't see any proof that has translated of any tangible benefits for bw or children.

Your problem isn't black feminists, they are a byproduct of this situation. Your problem are with men of other communities not women nor black feminists.

BTW Tommy has no problem with black feminists since it is some of their work that he has used to reinforced his position. His problem are with black female theorists who address intra-racial sexism without attributing every aspect to white supremacy. But by reading your posts it is clear that you are not listening to the work.

 

[xoxodede]

The issue is that we as Black males are talking about being viable human beings.

Black men are not viable human beings.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then have half a million Black men in prison.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then we can't graduate high school.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs yet Black women are more likely to be higher educated and the breadwinner.

Those are not patriarchal qualities.

The issue that Black women who parrot this idea of a Black patriarchy, they don't look at Black people through the lens of what Black life is actually like.

They look at Black life like it's White life.

Theres nothing patriarchal about a group of people that don't even marry.

We don't even marry each other.

We don't even have consistent nuclear family structures.

My point about the Black women issues thing is that Black women issues are never brought up in a quantitative manner and when they are addressed in the context of Black men issues...it's always a non-sequitir and it's always in a way to make the Black male identity disappear.

Cause let's be honest. Black male issues are Black community issues and Black female issues are Black female issues.

Black men are treated like Black people until we are we are not and then our identity pathologized.

A prime example of this is domestic violence. Black men can kill each other all that and the moment a Black man lays a hand on a Black woman and then we are toxic males, brutes and patriarchal.

And my thing is, if Black feminists actually would look it up, Black women lay hands on Black men just the same.

But if we bring that up and then we get accused of misogynoir and etc.

Black feminists have done a very evil and despicable thing.

Black people can't be talked badly about, Black women can't be talked badly about but Black men can.

Mike Brown is a Black person when he gets shot in the streets but he's a Black man if his girlfriend accuses him of beating her ass. Then he's a piece of shyt toxic male, Black patriarch, example of misogynoir and etc.

What is a Black woman that starves her daughter nearly to death?

We don't have these ideological frameworks to pathologize Black women because it is considered morally wrong.

If the same shyt Black feminists today say about Black men was said by a White talking head on Fox, that man would be considered racist.

But a Black woman says it we supposed to hear her out.

The funny shyt, the thing that Black feminists have been duped into. The reason why Black women are at risk for rape, assault, and etc higher than other women is because y'all don't have a patriarchy.

We live a White dominated patriarchal society and guess what...they can't have other patriarchies...

Black women have let White misrepresent their historical legacy. Black women always had higher labor force participation. Black women were at the threat of rape in ways that are unspeakable. There never was any legal redress.

White women never had to work cause her man took care of her. The very thought of a White women being raped sent White men into a frenzy to form lynch mobs.

That's what patriarchy actually looks like.

Patriarchy has law and order, protection and benefits for women.

Black feminists have let White women sell them a fukking sob story.

Boohoo I can't go to work.

Boohoo my husband fukks me when I don't want to

Black woman work cause she has to.

Black woman husband got sold down the river and ain't seen him in a decade.

That's what not having a patriarchy looks like.

I don't want a patriarchy but a patriarchy is better than whatever we have right now.

I personally do not care to unify with anyone that stands between me and my people having a happy life.

I like divisiveness. Whats the point in trying to stick together? This is politics, there are winners and losers and Black men have been losing the gender war.

We thought it was a game. A bunch of movies and books.

We didn't think of the real world consequences because we thought we need to unify and listen to the other side.

Black feminists have created a 50 year argument straight out of Jim Crow about why Black men are a existential threat to their existence.

The shyt reads exactly like what White men said about Black men in the 1800s.

Black men should've nipped this in the bud in the 70s.

We should've learned our lesson with White people. But we think because we all Black it's different and it's not.

Black men are not viable human beings.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then have half a million Black men in prison.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then we can't graduate high school.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs yet Black women are more likely to be higher educated and the breadwinner.

Those are not patriarchal qualities.

That's new to me and the first time I have heard it.

Patriarchy is not only about education or being the breadwinner. A man can run his household - even if he is not the breadwinner. Or the sole breadwinner Why? Cause of the roles and structure of the household and his beliefs. And again - Patriarchy is not just about household, money, etc.

There has always been Black men getting placed in the system - since enslavement to Convict Leasing to now. And it was still Patriarchy. It is what it is. Even my daddy and grandparents would laugh if they were alive to hear that it wasn't.

The issue that Black women who parrot this idea of a Black patriarchy, they don't look at Black people through the lens of what Black life is actually like.

They look at Black life like it's White life.

Theres nothing patriarchal about a group of people that don't even marry.

We don't even marry each other.

We don't even have consistent nuclear family structures.

My point about the Black women issues thing is that Black women issues are never brought up in a quantitative manner and when they are addressed in the context of Black men issues...it's always a non-sequitir and it's always in a way to make the Black male identity disappear.​

This I can't say I agree with -- or even have experienced. As my Black life and how I was raised - is surrounded by marriage and always been. We have to ask ourselves why don't we have consistent family structures? I understand for the BM who get caught up in the system - but what about those who do not? Why are they choosing to forgo it? We can't just say it's on BW.

I get what you are saying... like how white people be like - what about the natives? But, the issue with US is that we both have some of the same issues - and often times they are shifted to BM and not BW - and it should really be BOTH. That's what I feel like the issue is on both sides is.

Black feminists have let White women sell them a fukking sob story.

Boohoo I can't go to work.

Boohoo my husband fukks me when I don't want to

Black woman work cause she has to.

Black woman husband got sold down the river and ain't seen him in a decade.

That's what not having a patriarchy looks like.​

I don't know all these Black feminist that are being named or presented as fact. It's like a big narrative online that Black women in massive numbers are feminist and following the white woman. When that's not true.

Many BM are not sold up the river though - and are out there trying to make it.

Black feminists have done a very evil and despicable thing.

Black people can't be talked badly about, Black women can't be talked badly about but Black men can.

Mike Brown is a Black person when he gets shot in the streets but he's a Black man if his girlfriend accuses him of beating her ass. Then he's a piece of shyt toxic male, Black patriarch, example of misogynoir and etc.

What is a Black woman that starves her daughter nearly to death?
​

Black women are constantly standing up and speaking out in support of Black men. But, with anything - you are going to have some that are angry, "evil" - and out there. And this happens on both sides.

White women never had to work cause her man took care of her. The very thought of a White women being raped sent White men into a frenzy to form lynch mobs.

That's what patriarchy actually looks like.​

That's what I have always known and was raised in. And Black men can do that now. It has been done and for many BM - it will continue to be.

I like divisiveness. Whats the point in trying to stick together? This is politics, there are winners and losers and Black men have been losing the gender war.
We thought it was a game. A bunch of movies and books.
​

Why? when we both have loved ones of each gender. I am fighting for the Black men/boys in my life and family - as I will for the Black women/girls. And the BM I know will do the same.

Yeah... I'm on a whole nother school of thought. Maybe it is too late for a large segment of our community who wants to continue like this - but I am not here for it - and will continue to work with BM and BW who are not on some fukk it and fukk eachother ish.

 

[xoxodede]

What are these tangible benefits?

Did those things stop?

Acknowledgment, validation, informing those who don't know or need to know.

Nothing will ever stop. But, it can be called-out and sometimes legal changes or visibility to laws that need to be changed -- and even sometimes accountability and repercussions ensue for those perpetrators.

 

[SonnyEMC]

Acknowledgment, validation, informing those who don't know or need to know.

Nothing will ever stop. But, it can be called-out and sometimes legal changes or visibility to laws that need to be changed -- and even sometimes accountability and repercussions ensue for those perpetrators.

Cool, so nothing tangible.

 

[Ya?]

Black Women have no power over black men. Women can suggest but they cannot dictate. Black men are in the position that they are in because other men have placed them in that position.

 

[xoxodede]

Why put everything at the feet of black feminists? What does a bm addressing another bm for what they are not doing look like in real life?

And if as you claim the problem are black feminists, than what is a black feminist free black community look like and what problems will it solve?

You claim bm address each other. I don't see it, I see a lot of bm who have the means to who are quick to jump ship to go other peoples communities and wash themselves off 'black problems'. And the men who are left behind putting everything at the hands of women out of some male code.

I don't see men address male c00ns who are extremely detrimental to the black community global as thoroughly as they enjoy addressing bw who we all agree are powerless. You claim that black women issues only are black female issues and black men issues are black community issues. Interesting, I'd say black male betrayal and lack of self preservation has pushed black people into a state of extreme fragility. There are black communities without the evil black feminism and I don't see any proof that has translated of any tangible benefits for bw or children.

Your problem isn't black feminists, they are a byproduct of this situation. Your problem are with men of other communities not women nor black feminists.

BTW Tommy has no problem with black feminists since it is some of their work that he has used to reinforced his position. His problem are with black female theorists who address intra-racial sexism without attributing every aspect to white supremacy. But by reading your posts it is clear that you are not listening to the work.

That is my issue with Mr. Curry. It's like everything can't be put on these invisible Black Feminist out there.

I'm like..

@ them Mr. Curry PLEASE.

You gotta be able to name these Black feminist fukking it up out here for everybody. It's gotta be a lot of them. Why aren't they known by everyone and are they in the Black community like that? Cause, I don't know any. They gotta do better than talk about "Shea Butter" Twitter and some freelance writers...lol.

He does ignore intra-racial sexism and the other issues BW have spoken about - and acts like it doesn't matter if it can't be quantified into "data."

Somebody said this about Mr. Curry - and I think I have to agree.

After you hear him speak 3 or 4 times, you start to get the sense that he puts more of the onus for the system of White Supremacy on Black feminists than he does actual White people.

 

[xoxodede]

Cool, so nothing tangible.

I'm sure alot BM, teens and their mothers and fathers as a whole disagree. But, cool

 

[AlainLocke]

Why put everything at the feet of black feminists? What does a bm addressing another bm for what they are not doing look like in real life?

And if as you claim the problem are black feminists, than what is a black feminist free black community look like and what problems will it solve?

You claim bm address each other. I don't see it, I see a lot of bm who have the means to who are quick to jump ship to go other peoples communities and wash themselves off 'black problems'. And the men who are left behind putting everything at the hands of women out of some male code.

I don't see men address male c00ns who are extremely detrimental to the black community global as thoroughly as they enjoy addressing bw who we all agree are powerless. You claim that black women issues only are black female issues and black men issues are black community issues. Interesting, I'd say black male betrayal and lack of self preservation has pushed black people into a state of extreme fragility. There are black communities without the evil black feminism and I don't see any proof that has translated of any tangible benefits for bw or children.

Your problem isn't black feminists, they are a byproduct of this situation. Your problem are with men of other communities not women nor black feminists.

BTW Tommy has no problem with black feminists since it is some of their work that he has used to reinforced his position. His problem are with black female theorists who address intra-racial sexism without attributing every aspect to white supremacy. But by reading your posts it is clear that you are not listening to the work.

What are you talking about?

What is there need to be addressing to another Black man?

See this is another very stupid thing where everytime a Black male addresses the pathologization of the Black male by Black feminists with the use of their 1800s Jim Crow and 1st wave feminist talking points and theories...we get


"Well maybe if you guys just called each other out..."

No no no no...this ain't how it's gonna work. This ain't the 1990s, this ain't the Million March. We doing real politics right now. We ain't gonna have that stupid call out culture and checking people...

And I don't give a fukk what Tommy Curry says about Black feminists, I am talking about what I think of Black feminism...and if you actually listened to Tommy Curry address Black feminism...

He listed several critiques of their work...mainly the stupidity of the theory of Intersectionality, their lack of quantitative scholarship, and their view of Black life through White social sciences...

I mean, the most prominent Black feminist of all time, Bell Hooks don't have got damn citations. I don't even think she has numbers in her works. It's just her opinion.

We talking about Black feminism and how they view Black men and how they reinforce the White supremacist patriarchal view of Black men.

And if you agree with their views...or sympathetic to their views...then you are an enemy. It's that simple. We ain't doing this gas-lighting bullshyt.

 

[Remo]

Patriarchy is not just about power in economics, political leadership, etc --- it’s the natural structure of family, moral authority, social and gender privilege and it's roles.

And whom in the black community has all qualities listed? Talking collectively btw not your personal family dynamic.

 

[xoxodede]

What are you talking about?

What is there need to be addressing to another Black man?

See this is another very stupid thing where everytime a Black male addresses the pathologization of the Black male by Black feminists with the use of their 1800s Jim Crow and 1st wave feminist talking points and theories...we get


"Well maybe if you guys just called each other out..."

No no no no...this ain't how it's gonna work. This ain't the 1990s, this ain't the Million March. We doing real politics right now. We ain't gonna have that stupid call out culture and checking people...

And I don't give a fukk what Tommy Curry says about Black feminists, I am talking about what I think of Black feminism...and if you actually listened to Tommy Curry address Black feminism...

He listed several critiques of their work...mainly the stupidity of the theory of Intersectionality, their lack of quantitative scholarship, and their view of Black life through White social sciences...

I mean, the most prominent Black feminist of all time, Bell Hooks don't have got damn citations. I don't even think she has numbers in her works. It's just her opinion.

We talking about Black feminism and how they view Black men and how they reinforce the White supremacist patriarchal view of Black men.

And if you agree with their views...or sympathetic to their views...then you are an enemy. It's that simple. We ain't doing this gas-lighting bullshyt.

I was taught and always saw Black men should check or call other BM to task. Or should a woman do this? Or should we just let shyt slide and grow in disfunction with all men and women?

See this is another very stupid thing where everytime a Black male addresses the pathologization of the Black male by Black feminists with the use of their 1800s Jim Crow and 1st wave feminist talking points and theories...we get "Well maybe if you guys just called each other out..."

But, honestly - if you want to go there - BW have always had to address BM. But, we also had BM doing it as well - on both ends. Men to women. Women to men. But, it was always more BM who supported their BW counterparts - as they understood they needed a united front.

He listed several critiques of their work...mainly the stupidity of the theory of Intersectionality, their lack of quantitative scholarship, and their view of Black life through White social sciences...

Black Feminism has to be practiced and enforced by Black Feminist though.... so we are asking where are they - and who are these large numbers of BW practicing and believing in it. Concrete names and examples in our community would be nice.

How can one quantify intersectionality and their has been many respected studies on intersectionality --- and how can one deny this:

The interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage; a theoretical approach based on such a premise. (Oxford Dictionary)​

I mean, the most prominent Black feminist of all time, Bell Hooks don't have got damn citations. I don't even think she has numbers in her works. It's just her opinion.

She does though - many. But, why does she need citations? And from who would be acceptable? Who does Dr. Curry have?

 

[AlainLocke]

Black men are not viable human beings.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then have half a million Black men in prison.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs and then we can't graduate high school.

You can't say Black men are patriarchs yet Black women are more likely to be higher educated and the breadwinner.

Those are not patriarchal qualities.

That's new to me and the first time I have heard it.

Patriarchy is not only about education or being the breadwinner. A man can run his household - even if he is not the breadwinner. Or the sole breadwinner Why? Cause of the roles and structure of the household and his beliefs. And again - Patriarchy is not just about household, money, etc.

There has always been Black men getting placed in the system - since enslavement to Convict Leasing to now. And it was still Patriarchy. It is what it is. Even my daddy and grandparents would laugh if they were alive to hear that it wasn't.

The issue that Black women who parrot this idea of a Black patriarchy, they don't look at Black people through the lens of what Black life is actually like.

They look at Black life like it's White life.

Theres nothing patriarchal about a group of people that don't even marry.

We don't even marry each other.

We don't even have consistent nuclear family structures.

My point about the Black women issues thing is that Black women issues are never brought up in a quantitative manner and when they are addressed in the context of Black men issues...it's always a non-sequitir and it's always in a way to make the Black male identity disappear.​

This I can't say I agree with -- or even have experienced. As my Black life and how I was raised - is surrounded by marriage and always been. We have to ask ourselves why don't we have consistent family structures? I understand for the BM who get caught up in the system - but what about those who do not? Why are they choosing to forgo it? We can't just say it's on BW.

I get what you are saying... like how white people be like - what about the natives? But, the issue with US is that we both have some of the same issues - and often times they are shifted to BM and not BW - and it should really be BOTH. That's what I feel like the issue is on both sides is.

Black feminists have let White women sell them a fukking sob story.

Boohoo I can't go to work.

Boohoo my husband fukks me when I don't want to

Black woman work cause she has to.

Black woman husband got sold down the river and ain't seen him in a decade.

That's what not having a patriarchy looks like.​

I don't know all these Black feminist that are being named or presented as fact. It's like a big narrative online that Black women in massive numbers are feminist and following the white woman. When that's not true.

Many BM are not sold up the river though - and are out there trying to make it.

Black feminists have done a very evil and despicable thing.

Black people can't be talked badly about, Black women can't be talked badly about but Black men can.

Mike Brown is a Black person when he gets shot in the streets but he's a Black man if his girlfriend accuses him of beating her ass. Then he's a piece of shyt toxic male, Black patriarch, example of misogynoir and etc.

What is a Black woman that starves her daughter nearly to death?
​

Black women are constantly standing up and speaking out in support of Black men. But, with anything - you are going to have some that are angry, "evil" - and out there. And this happens on both sides.

White women never had to work cause her man took care of her. The very thought of a White women being raped sent White men into a frenzy to form lynch mobs.

That's what patriarchy actually looks like.​

That's what I have always known and was raised in. And Black men can do that now. It has been done and for many BM - it will continue to be.

I like divisiveness. Whats the point in trying to stick together? This is politics, there are winners and losers and Black men have been losing the gender war.
We thought it was a game. A bunch of movies and books.
​

Why? when we both have loved ones of each gender. I am fighting for the Black men/boys in my life and family - as I will for the Black women/girls. And the BM I know will do the same.

Yeah... I'm on a whole nother school of thought. Maybe it is too late for a large segment of our community who wants to continue like this - but I am not here for it - and will continue to work with BM and BW who are not on some fukk it and fukk eachother ish.

I think you are misunderstanding the term patriarchy in the gender sense...men leading families...and societies

And patriarchy in the feminist sense...

A system where men have power and they dominate and oppress people, mainly women. That's the main function of a patriarchy according to women.

Black feminists are talking about Black men oppressing Black women when they are talking about patriarchy.

They aren't talking about their dad's leading families or being a leader in the neighborhood.

They are taken about Black men wielding dominating and oppressive power.

Yvette Carnell's point, Dr. Tommy Curry's point and Antonio Moore's point is...

Black men don't have power like that, cause if we did...we wouldn't be the ones dying in the streets, getting locked up and letting Black women be breadwinners and college educated.

Black feminists ignore this and say, "We are oppressed by Black men."

I am not against Black women, I am against Black feminists who parrot this myth that Black men have a patriarchy. That parrot the myth of Black male toxicity and etc and etc.

 

[xoxodede]

And whom in the black community has all qualities listed? Talking collectively btw not your personal family dynamic.

"NOT JUST ABOUT....

Patriarchy is not just about power in economics, political leadership, etc --- it’s the natural structure of family, moral authority, social and gender privilege and it's roles.​

They don't all have to be available or held - that's my whole point. And it's many BM that are fathers, father figures and over and leading their families and households -- and are taught to do so.