"Death to the Pessimistic State of Mind" - Nas Voice: NYK '23 Pre-Season Thread

[Wargames]

I still hold that Knicks fans have been overrating that 11th pick. This draft class was trash with some projects worth taking fliers on but not at 11...maybe around 20. But the punt was savvy in my eyes since this class sucked, in indirectly helped us land Brunson (plus two picks with potential to convey in the double-draft), and there just weren't prospects that had me hype. Their track record prior to this punt is Obi, Quickley, Grimes, McBride, Rokas, and Sims which makes me pretty confident they can find value when it's actually worth chasing after.

My Fournier theory for the time being is that they're still banking on dumping a high salary vet. I think Fournier is still their most likely choice. That's my guess for why training camp is starting with an open slot. Fournier for 2 expirings, or 1 expiring and 1 cheaper contract is easier to pull.

I wouldn't buy a Kuzma rumor until Randle's out the door and/or they actually get the results they're counting on from this roster. If Grimes lives up to their hype, then the starting wing spots are locked up with home grown talent. I do expect consolidation but not a significant upgrade unless they're in the thick of things when current signed players become available (with an eye on the center logjam they've seemingly created on purpose).

Keep in mind I didn’t have someone I wanted them to grab at 11. I liked Sochan or Dyson and both were gone by 11. It was a shallow draft and everyone kept saying that. I think it's just too early to call a draft, but this one should be average. Around February I will be neck deep in videos but this year's draft seems average. It doesn't have a reputation like 2021 and 2022's draft classes. 2021 draft class was being talked about in 2019 as really strong and 2022 class was being called weak right after based off of it coming after two years of strong classes.

However, even in last year's shallow draft trading pick #11 to get out of the entire draft says a lot. Especially in this draft where multiple teams could have done pick packages for the knicks to move down (which they did before moving out). There are at least 20 guys who they were like "Nah we don't want them under a guaranteed contract". That say's a lot about the knicks and their intentions. As methods for improving the team goes, the draft is the one they are focused on the least.

I don’t think they are worried about the cap space or consolidation. Fournier is an 18 Mil a year deal. They have no way to add that much salary again for an outside player without doing a S&T of one of their own players. So long term Fournier's actual value is as a trade piece. The cap is going up so they want to grab someone now who can outperform their contract long term. They could hold Fournier another season to trade but to do that they will have to pay that 2024 FA more as FA salaries keeps going up in price. They have that protected Wizards pick which the Wizards should want, and Kuzma is a very good 3/4th option who can defend. You slot Kuzma at the three and they would have effectively turned Payton/Bullock/Burks/Noel/Knox into Brunson/Kuzma/Grimes/Hartenstein/Reddish and would still have the main three guys from that playoff team (Randle/RJ/Rose) and reserves like IQ, Obi, Sims, and Mcbride.

The Knicks would have more two players and guys who can play defense than any other team in the league. That is how you win with Thibs or at least see as far as Thibs can take you. They might grab another wing we heard rumors about OG and WIggins and them looking at Jerami Grant. Basically swapping Fournier for a 2-way wing they can resign in 2023 makes a whole lot of sense cap wise. Way more than moving him for any form of cap space.

 

[Wargames]

Wagner is looking like he will be a problem this upcoming season.

I told you about my Nazi Youth Wagner. He got caught wide-eyed in the tournament but at every level prior he excelled including college prior to the tournament.


He was the guy I wanted the most for the Knicks but he went hella early.

 

[Knicksman20]

Direct shot at Fules Handles.

Immediately what I thought when I heard it yesterday

 

[storyteller]

Keep in mind I didn’t have someone I wanted them to grab at 11. I liked Sochan or Dyson and both were gone by 11. It was a shallow draft and everyone kept saying that. I think it's just too early to call a draft, but this one should be average. Around February I will be neck deep in videos but this year's draft seems average. It doesn't have a reputation like 2021 and 2022's draft classes. 2021 draft class was being talked about in 2019 as really strong and 2022 class was being called weak right after based off of it coming after two years of strong classes.

However, even in last year's shallow draft trading pick #11 to get out of the entire draft says a lot. Especially in this draft where multiple teams could have done pick packages for the knicks to move down (which they did before moving out). There are at least 20 guys who they were like "Nah we don't want them under a guaranteed contract". That say's a lot about the knicks and their intentions. As methods for improving the team goes, the draft is the one they are focused on the least.

I don’t think they are worried about the cap space or consolidation. Fournier is an 18 Mil a year deal. They have no way to add that much salary again for an outside player without doing a S&T of one of their own players. So long term Fournier's actual value is as a trade piece. The cap is going up so they want to grab someone now who can outperform their contract long term. They could hold Fournier another season to trade but to do that they will have to pay that 2024 FA more as FA salaries keeps going up in price. They have that protected Wizards pick which the Wizards should want, and Kuzma is a very good 3/4th option who can defend. You slot Kuzma at the three and they would have effectively turned Payton/Bullock/Burks/Noel/Knox into Brunson/Kuzma/Grimes/Hartenstein/Reddish and would still have the main three guys from that playoff team (Randle/RJ/Rose) and reserves like IQ, Obi, Sims, and Mcbride.

The Knicks would have more two players and guys who can play defense than any other team in the league. That is how you win with Thibs or at least see as far as Thibs can take you. They might grab another wing we heard rumors about OG and WIggins and them looking at Jerami Grant. Basically swapping Fournier for a 2-way wing they can resign in 2023 makes a whole lot of sense cap wise. Way more than moving him for any form of cap space.

2022 wasn't just a weak class based on a couple of good drafts before it. It was just a weak draft. The Knicks have shown in the past that they can and will find options to trade down if there's talent that they want. They weren't so committed to cap space that they didn't make aggressive attempts to move up for Jaden Ivey and a lot of reports said that they would have kept the pick for Johnny Davis. They just didn't like the talent in this draft like that. They also added five young players to the roster in the prior two drafts along with a sixth stash piece.

I do think they'd like to move Fournier if they could. They were ready to move a first to get him off the cap during the Utah trade talks. That was for Mitchell of course, but it tells us how devalued his contract is right now. If they could move him without costing assets, I really think that they would. Kuzma is a pretty good piece on a reasonable contract for sure. But you've got Barrett, Grimes, Reddish, Randle, and Obi for the 3/4 right now. Grimes or RJ can play at the 2, but you're also looking at IQ there. I think Kuzma would cost assets to pick up on top of Fournier requiring assets to move at the moment. That could end up costly.

I do think OG or Wiggins would be more likely for the Knicks to push assets on the table for. I'm just not sure Kuzma falls into that level of upgrade. He's a good addition, but I think they're chasing a tier higher when they try to move.

 

[Miles Davis]

Direct shot at Fules Handles.

I done heard this shyt before, ain’t no such thing as accountability

 

[NastyEscobar]

 

[storyteller]

Fournier's a real professional. I'll give him a lot of credit for that. He has the right answer for what he needs to do to keep his starting role. I'd like to see him traded, but I can't hate.

 

[NastyEscobar]

Fournier's a real professional. I'll give him a lot of credit for that. He has the right answer for what he needs to do to keep his starting role. I'd like to see him traded, but I can't hate.

Me too, let’s see how well he'll mesh with Brunson in the first half of the season. If not then it’s

 

[Peter Popoff]

 

[Knicksman20]

Fournier's a real professional. I'll give him a lot of credit for that. He has the right answer for what he needs to do to keep his starting role. I'd like to see him traded, but I can't hate.

Under different circumstances & a different coach, I'd love for him to stay & be an asset to the team off the bench. He's a likeable player that's team first & goes about his business in a professional way. He's a good vet

 

[Ironman]

Grimes with no freak injuries is taking Evs spot by December

 

[Wargames]

2022 wasn't just a weak class based on a couple of good drafts before it. It was just a weak draft. The Knicks have shown in the past that they can and will find options to trade down if there's talent that they want. They weren't so committed to cap space that they didn't make aggressive attempts to move up for Jaden Ivey and a lot of reports said that they would have kept the pick for Johnny Davis. They just didn't like the talent in this draft like that. They also added five young players to the roster in the prior two drafts along with a sixth stash piece.

I do think they'd like to move Fournier if they could. They were ready to move a first to get him off the cap during the Utah trade talks. That was for Mitchell of course, but it tells us how devalued his contract is right now. If they could move him without costing assets, I really think that they would. Kuzma is a pretty good piece on a reasonable contract for sure. But you've got Barrett, Grimes, Reddish, Randle, and Obi for the 3/4 right now. Grimes or RJ can play at the 2, but you're also looking at IQ there. I think Kuzma would cost assets to pick up on top of Fournier requiring assets to move at the moment. That could end up costly.

I do think OG or Wiggins would be more likely for the Knicks to push assets on the table for. I'm just not sure Kuzma falls into that level of upgrade. He's a good addition, but I think they're chasing a tier higher when they try to move.

You could be right that they just hated last year’s draft. I still think the draft is not something they are willing to focus on seriously. They want win now guys because this team want to make the playoffs more than anything so Dolan can raise ticket prices. The two prior seasons was when they should have tanked and they kept chugging to try and make the playoffs. Now they have to start paying the kids with Mitch and RJ going first so tanking makes less sense.

I also think they have to use draft assets to move Fournier regardless. A few of those protected picks with his contract makes sense. They weren’t going to use all those picks anyway. I just don’t see them doing that level trade just for cap space. That 18 Mil contract is essentially irreplaceable unless they trade Fournier to sign someone using bird rights. It’s the same thing the warriors did with KD’s contract that went to Dlo and then Wiggins. Fournier’s contract to trade for someone else’s bird rights makes him valuable. Especially with Grimes here.

They could pick a lot of guys to target in a Fournier trade. Kuzma just seems like the lowkey conservative move this FO loves to make after fronting like they want to make a big move. They might sniff a Wiggins/OG deal but once it gets too expensive for their appetite I expect them to pass and close on a easier deal. Meanwhile, Kuzma played with Randle in LA (so Randle shouldn’t hate him), is not a knucklehead off the court. He can be a good defender and shooter. He only makes 13 Mil this year, but is a CAA client so you know they could come to terms on his contract. I am not saying its written, but I called these type of moves before and he fits what the FO should be looking to replace Fournier with. A younger proven 3rd/4th option who can be a versatile 2-way player.

 

[storyteller]

You could be right that they just hated last year’s draft. I still think the draft is not something they are willing to focus on seriously. They want win now guys because this team want to make the playoffs more than anything so Dolan can raise ticket prices. The two prior seasons was when they should have tanked and they kept chugging to try and make the playoffs. Now they have to start paying the kids with Mitch and RJ going first so tanking makes less sense.

I also think they have to use draft assets to move Fournier regardless. A few of those protected picks with his contract makes sense. They weren’t going to use all those picks anyway. I just don’t see them doing that level trade just for cap space. That 18 Mil contract is essentially irreplaceable unless they trade Fournier to sign someone using bird rights. It’s the same thing the warriors did with KD’s contract that went to Dlo and then Wiggins. Fournier’s contract to trade for someone else’s bird rights makes him valuable. Especially with Grimes here.

They could pick a lot of guys to target in a Fournier trade. Kuzma just seems like the lowkey conservative move this FO loves to make after fronting like they want to make a big move. They might sniff a Wiggins/OG deal but once it gets too expensive for their appetite I expect them to pass and close on a easier deal. Meanwhile, Kuzma played with Randle in LA (so Randle shouldn’t hate him), is not a knucklehead off the court. He can be a good defender and shooter. He only makes 13 Mil this year, but is a CAA client so you know they could come to terms on his contract. I am not saying its written, but I called these type of moves before and he fits what the FO should be looking to replace Fournier with. A younger proven 3rd/4th option who can be a versatile 2-way player.

They should have tanked last year and made moves at the deadline for sure. There's no way they tank a year prior. They had home court advantage in the playoffs. But this past year, they definitely should have dumped contracts if/when they had the chance. At a minimum, Burks shoulda been out for positive assets and IQ should have gotten a bigger opportunity to try being a Point Guard and starter.

We're not too far apart on Fournier. But if they have to attach assets, I think they swing for someone the caliber of Dlo or Wiggins and Kyle Kuzma isn't that caliber of prospect. If we expand a Fournier trade to include one or two first-round picks (even protected) then the options open up a lot. I don't think Kuzma is that guy though. I think they're looking for a star or potential star with their next move.

Add Kuzma to Grimes/RJ/Randle/Obi/Reddish already on the roster and you're creating the same log jam that trading Fournier is supposed to alleviate. That's why I think they either try to dump Fournier without spending assets, or use his salary for matching purposes in a deal that includes young players and a package of assets for someone they believe could become a top 2 piece.

 

[Peter Popoff]

Foolius Handles and Coach Thibs working together with the front office to secure a Knicks loss.

 

[Wargames]

They should have tanked last year and made moves at the deadline for sure. There's no way they tank a year prior. They had home court advantage in the playoffs. But this past year, they definitely should have dumped contracts if/when they had the chance. At a minimum, Burks shoulda been out for positive assets and IQ should have gotten a bigger opportunity to try being a Point Guard and starter.

We're not too far apart on Fournier. But if they have to attach assets, I think they swing for someone the caliber of Dlo or Wiggins and Kyle Kuzma isn't that caliber of prospect. If we expand a Fournier trade to include one or two first-round picks (even protected) then the options open up a lot. I don't think Kuzma is that guy though. I think they're looking for a star or potential star with their next move.

Add Kuzma to Grimes/RJ/Randle/Obi/Reddish already on the roster and you're creating the same log jam that trading Fournier is supposed to alleviate. That's why I think they either try to dump Fournier without spending assets, or use his salary for matching purposes in a deal that includes young players and a package of assets for someone they believe could become a top 2 piece.

I agree on last year, I was and advocate for tanking the year prior because that was an elite draft. However the chase for playoffs is connected to Dolan raising ticket prices. So they didn’t tank, and now tanking makes even less sense because they have players to assess to see if they can be any good.

I also think they aren’t seriously in the running asset wise for a star. They have a lot of picks, but the protected picks aren’t valuable in helping get a star player. They aren’t even that valuable when it comes to moving up. Using one or two to get a starter level player they can add to a trade package is valuable. They might trade for a high quality player, but teams might not make one available this season.

Depth wise, the issue is Thibs. If he played the starters 30-35 minutes a night like most teams the bench would eat more. I am hoping he “trusts” the kids and stops running the starters into the ground. I never thought his job was in danger except when RJ got injured on some bs play after playing 40 minutes two games in a row. If he is smart he’ll play all the starters less so the kids can get at least a quarter of game time every night.