"Death to the Pessimistic State of Mind" - Nas Voice: NYK '23 Pre-Season Thread

[Wargames]

Utah trying to create leverage.

If anything makes me feel better about the Knicks, sounds like they're lowballing.

I think Utah is legit looking for another deal.


If the Knicks can low ball Ainge then do it. I just don’t see Ainge doing that after he just robbed the Timberwolves.

 

[Thavoiceofthevoiceless]

I can’t predict the future but did you know KD and Donovan Mitchell would be on the market this summer… last summer?


Trades and FA happens every year, and every year or two somebody fukks up and another team prospers… Word to Brunson.

That one isn't nor shouldn't be surprising in the slightest as there had been rumors for years that the team was looking to cut salary and blow up the team if they couldn't make it to the Finals. The KD one shouldn't be surprising either with how much of a mental liability Kyrie is.

 

[Wargames]

That one isn't nor shouldn't be surprising in the slightest as there had been rumors for years that the team was looking to cut salary and blow up the team if they couldn't make it to the Finals. The KD one shouldn't be surprising either with how much of a mental liability Kyrie is.

You was not in here last summer saying Donovan Mitchell is going to be on the trade block next summer? No one predicted KD’s situation they were considered contenders last summer.

I mean based on that logic I can say the Clippers might throw Kawhi and PG on the trade market next year. fukk around the Suns might break up too.

 

[Thavoiceofthevoiceless]

You was not in here last summer saying Donovan Mitchell is going to be on the trade block next summer? No one predicted KD’s situation they were considered contenders last summer.

I mean based on that logic I can say the Clippers might throw Kawhi and PG on the trade market next year. fukk around the Suns might break up too.

I never said I was in this thread. What I said was that it was rumblings even before this offseason that the tandem of Mitchell and Gobert was going to be broken up with either one or both of them getting traded. Those rumors have been in Utah for a while now as the owners wanted no part of paying the luxury tax and actually doing what it to took to actually win and looking for any reason to blow it up.

 

[ISO]

I can’t predict the future but did you know KD and Donovan Mitchell would be on the market this summer… last summer?


Trades and FA happens every year, and every year or two somebody fukks up and another team prospers… Word to Brunson.

The Knicks are not a star wing away from contention. If the Knicks hypothetically got KD they would lose in ECR1 or the ECSF at best.

The Knicks would need Mitchell and another high end front-court player regardless of position while maintaining depth to be contenders.

It’s also not that many star wings all those guys are getting old. The young guys are Tatum, who I don’t believe would have made it past the ECSF had Middleton been healthy and Luka who looks like Dallas long time franchise player.

The league is going through a transition phase of the old guard into the new guard. That next generation looks like it will be dominated by bigs.

 

[ISO]

Jalen Brunson pulled up to watch at Dyckman

 

[Wargames]

The Knicks are not a star wing away from contention. If the Knicks hypothetically got KD they would lose in ECR1 or the ECSF at best.

The Knicks would need Mitchell and another high end front-court player regardless of position while maintaining depth to be contenders.

It’s also not that many star wings all those guys are getting old. The young guys are Tatum, who I don’t believe would have made it past the ECSF had Middleton been healthy and Luka who looks like Dallas long time franchise player.

The league is going through a transition phase of the old guard into the new guard. That next generation looks like it will be dominated by bigs.

bro I disagree with you on a fundamental level. Unless you have All time level talented bigs you’re not winning a chip with them as your best player. Wings and avg to big SG win the majority of chips.

 

[JMurder]

Nikka VanVleet and Lowry just won it a few years ago.

VanVleet started zero games and averaged less minutes than Danny Green. Good try though

 

[Big Mountain Hélà]

Should use the open roster spot on

 

[Glorious]

Quentin Grimes should not be impeding any potential trade.

It’s a win if Grimes and Reddish get traded over Obi and Quickley.

Quickley is an afterthought. Thibs doesn't even trust him enough to start for him. Those reports that have Rose offering Randle and Fournier must be on the money. I mean just trade wise at least one or if not both have to be included to match up to Mitchell salary.

I need someone to explain again what leverage Ainge has other than saying no.

 

[storyteller]

Knicks, Jazz are perfect trade partners, but imperfect negotiation partners

New York and Utah have diligent ways of trying to win deals. For now, it seems each side is waiting for the other to blink.

theathletic.com

This is a dope article. Paywalled, so I'll only include excerpts and descriptions to leave reason for yall to click.

Let's start with how much of a hardline Danny Ainge typically takes. This is the major concern with Utah...rumors have had Ainge casting aside good trades because they were slightly less than his asking price and then getting left with the bag or picks or whatever.

In an article last week, I compared Jazz CEO Danny Ainge to Philadelphia 76ers president Daryl Morey in that both have a strong enough stomach to wait out awkward situations — a reference, of course, to the way Morey held on to Ben Simmons for months last season, even as the discomfort between Simmons and Philadelphia became seemingly more and more untenable. But in reality, Ainge’s business personality deviates a bit from Morey’s.


Every so often, when he sets his heart on a player, Morey will chase trades. Ainge is famous for setting a price for a guy he’s trying to deal or for one he’s trying to acquire, then waiting out the situation until someone meets that exact cost.


Don’t want to trade six or seven first-rounders for Mitchell? Fine. Ainge will hang up the phone and flee to the golf course without any regrets.


Toronto Raptors president Masai Ujiri has a similar negotiation strategy. Some may call it stubborn. Considering the success both Ujiri and Ainge have had, it might be more appropriate to call it principled.

Enter Rose's team, it's cool to note the dynamics of the FO. Brock Aller takes the lead on trades but if other members of the FO are familiar with executives on the other side, those guys take the lead. Scott Perry was a big piece of the draft night deals which was reported prior ad re-confirmed here.

But more importantly, Brock Aller's obsession with the details is referenced.

Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in the opposing front office.


General manager Scott Perry was essential to the draft-day trades with the Oklahoma City Thunder and Detroit Pistons because of his relationships with Thunder GM Sam Presti and Pistons GM Troy Weaver. Both Perry and Weaver worked under Presti in OKC.


Most commonly, however, Aller is on the phone. Rose will often splice in near the end to wrap up deals.


Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

The interview @ISO posted already mentioned this, but the negotiations aren't focused on players or the number of picks. They're mostly haggling over which picks are going, with NY fighting to keep their unprotected picks and Utah saying no to the protected ones.

Discourse has been about how many draft picks the Jazz want. But if the Knicks were to deal, say, six first-rounders for Mitchell, there would be a substantial difference between sending the four from other teams, along with an unprotected one in 2023 and a protected one in ’25 and sending out four unprotected of their own as well as the Washington and Detroit ones. The latter deal mortgages New York’s future in a way the former one does not. And the discrepancy between those two packages requires more than pawn-shop bartering.

This is the big part for me...

But none of that matters if the Knicks and Jazz don’t find a way to meet in the middle.

The Jazz know the Knicks have jonesed for a star for years. The Knicks know their B-package is better than any A-package from other rumored Mitchell suitors. Both sides have diligent ways of trying to win deals.

They are perfect trade partners, but imperfect negotiation partners. For now, it seems each side is waiting for the other to blink.

This describes one way leverage imo. The Knicks can outbid any team with their back-up offer. Utah is hoping somebody comes up with a magic three-team trade to generate enough assets just to compet. That's real leverage. On Utah's side of the negotiation, they know NY wants a star....that's it. That's not leverage. But they'll run that line while Danny Ainge tries to wait out the game of chicken. Unfortunately, Ainge is such a stubborn dude that he might be willing try and keep Mitchell. But I don't think Aller's the type to get desperate and offer more...we'll see.

 

[RickyGQ]

Zion has a good squad in New Orleans he ain’t going nowhere.

Mitchell is as good as it gets.

The next guy that may become available is KAT.

I think AD becomes available before KAT. Idk what his motivation to come to NY would be unless we had Mitchell and were one player away

 

[RickyGQ]

Knicks, Jazz are perfect trade partners, but imperfect negotiation partners

New York and Utah have diligent ways of trying to win deals. For now, it seems each side is waiting for the other to blink.

theathletic.com

This is a dope article. Paywalled, so I'll only include excerpts and descriptions to leave reason for yall to click.

Let's start with how much of a hardline Danny Ainge typically takes. This is the major concern with Utah...rumors have had Ainge casting aside good trades because they were slightly less than his asking price and then getting left with the bag or picks or whatever.



Enter Rose's team, it's cool to note the dynamics of the FO. Brock Aller takes the lead on trades but if other members of the FO are familiar with executives on the other side, those guys take the lead. Scott Perry was a big piece of the draft night deals which was reported prior ad re-confirmed here.

But more importantly, Brock Aller's obsession with the details is referenced.


The interview @ISO posted already mentioned this, but the negotiations aren't focused on players or the number of picks. They're mostly haggling over which picks are going, with NY fighting to keep their unprotected picks and Utah saying no to the protected ones.


This is the big part for me...


This describes one way leverage imo. The Knicks can outbid any team with their back-up offer. Utah is hoping somebody comes up with a magic three-team trade to generate enough assets just to compet. That's real leverage. On Utah's side of the negotiation, they know NY wants a star....that's it. That's not leverage. But they'll run that line while Danny Ainge tries to wait out the game of chicken. Unfortunately, Ainge is such a stubborn dude that he might be willing try and keep Mitchell. But I don't think Aller's the type to get desperate and offer more...we'll see.

How do you feel about the notion that the Knicks have pressure from the fans to make this deal? I think it’s bullshyt. Of course her Stephen A’s will kill us but as a fan base we can talk ourselves into pretty much anything.

 

[RickyGQ]

I think Utah is legit looking for another deal.


If the Knicks can low ball Ainge then do it. I just don’t see Ainge doing that after he just robbed the Timberwolves.

Apparently, FO’s around the league are furious at the Timberwolves for that Gobert trade and how they destroyed the market.

 

[storyteller]

How do you feel about the notion that the Knicks have pressure from the fans to make this deal? I think it’s bullshyt. Of course her Stephen A’s will kill us but as a fan base we can talk ourselves into pretty much anything.

In general, I find Knicks fans more risk averse with their prospects. So I’m with you. But I also think that when the media says “pressure from Knicks fans” they really just mean “overreaction from general nba fans that don’t watch the Knicks like that.” I don’t know why the two get conflated but it always happens.