Black People And Capitalism DON'T Mix

[theworldismine13]

People are literally risking their lives to leave Mexico for the U.S., too. Is Mexico not capitalist? What about the Dominican Republic and other countries in the region?

Against all odds, Cuba has achieved a higher standard of living than many of its capitalist neighbors in the region. All this, with an embargo and repeated attempts to overthrow the Cuban government.

Tanzania still has low development after the restoration/expansion of capitalism in the 1980s... okay, that's the point. How can you blame socialism for low development when it is still that way under capitalism?

You're going to need to provide some evidence for that claim that African countries don't practice capitalism. I would argue they are some of the most capitalist countries in the world.

None of those countries are capitalist, in all this countries property rights are weak, government control of the economy is extensive, it's very hard to open a business and it's hard to open a bank account

And all those countries are economic basket cases

 

[JahFocus CS]

Also... there are ways to blend market mechanisms with socialism. I don't equate markets with capitalism since markets pre-date capitalism.

 

[Poitier]

Also... there are ways to blend market mechanisms with socialism. I don't equate markets with capitalism since markets pre-date capitalism.

 

[theworldismine13]

This is the ranking of doing business, it gives you some idea of the level of capitalism in the country, notice how African countries dominate the bottom

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

 

[JahFocus CS]

None of those countries are capitalist, in all this countries property rights are weak, government control of the economy is extensive, it's very hard to open a business and it's hard to open a bank account

And all those countries are economic basket cases

This is the ranking of doing business, it gives you some idea of the level of capitalism in the country, notice how African countries dominate the bottom

http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

In those countries where there is extensive government control of the economy and it is difficult to establish new ventures, who made it that way? It can't be the working class since they are among the weakest in the world in these countries and don't own the means of production. It is some segment of the bourgeoisie that is more powerful than the others and uses the state to suppress other bourgeois or petit bourgeois (new enterprises) rivals. That's intra-class rivalry So maybe you can say there's little competition in these countries, but they are still capitalist. They are state capitalist.

 

[theworldismine13]

In those countries where there is extensive government control of the economy and it is difficult to establish new ventures, who made it that way? It can't be the working class since they are among the weakest in the world in these countries and don't own the means of production. It is some segment of the bourgeoisie that is more powerful than the others and uses the state to suppress other bourgeois or petit bourgeois (new enterprises) rivals. That's intra-class rivalry So maybe you can say there's little competition in these countries, but they are still capitalist. They are state capitalist.

But the point is you are advocating government control of the markets to control inequality, the question is why are you against capitalism, when it's capitalism that will give people property rights and will allow people to create business and open bank accounts?

 

[theworldismine13]

Groups or nations that practice capitalism become wealthy

Groups or nations that don't practice capitalism stay poor or fall behind

It's that cut and dry

Therefore people advocating that black people turn away from capitalism are advocating that black people stay poor and fall behind

 

[notPsychosiz]

Here is the thing about capitalism.
It is based on capital. This adheres to the principal of the many controling the few.
A commodoty equally distributed does not result in capital for anyone, it results in a lowest common denomonator.
Capital is achieved by amounting a commodoty and keeping others from obtaining it as well. That way you are somehow more valuable for possessing it.

Take the example of a cell phone, or a pager.
There was a time where having one was considered an accomplishment. A luxury item. You could pull bytches back in the day because you had a pager.
Now, because everyone has phones, it is assumed you should have one by default. You get no points for it.
This is how capital works. Anything everyone has is no longer capitol. As such, capitalistic systems try and keep things everyone would benifet from out of the hands of everyone except the super rich for as long as possible.

The central ideology of capitalism is based in tiers and classes, haves and have nots, regardless of a realistic need for others to be beneath you.
They are kept beneath you artificially for the sake of continuing the system structure.

There could be enough of everything. A capitalist system dictates that in such a case you should hoard... even burn or bury products and delay services until demand is profitable again.

Capitalism is and will always be bad for more people than it is good for by an overwhelming margin because this pyramid structure is worked into its base design.
It can never be better, get better, or do better. It is doing exactly what it is constructed to do already... Create 1 rich person for every 10 wealthy people for every 100 middle class people for every 1000 poor people.

When a poor person becomes rich, many think the score goes from 1 rich : 1000 poor to 2 rich : 999 poor. In reality it goes from 1 rich : 1000 poor to 2 rich : 2000 poor.
The scale remains the same because the ammount of people that are suppressed to elevate a person above them remains constant.

Capitalism is demonic.

 

[theworldismine13]

Here is the thing about capitalism.
It is based on capital. This adheres to the principal of the many controling the few.
A commodoty equally distributed does not result in capital for anyone, it results in a lowest common denomonator.
Capital is achieved by amounting a commodoty and keeping others from obtaining it as well. That way you are somehow more valuable for possessing it.

Take the example of a cell phone, or a pager.
There was a time where having one was considered an accomplishment. A luxury item. You could pull bytches back in the day because you had a pager.
Now, because everyone has phones, it is assumed you should have one by default. You get no points for it.
This is how capital works. Anything everyone has is no longer capitol. As such, capitalistic systems try and keep things everyone would benifet from out of the hands of everyone except the super rich for as long as possible.

The central ideology of capitalism is based in tiers and classes, haves and have nots, regardless of a realistic need for others to be beneath you.
They are kept beneath you artificially for the sake of continuing the system structure.

There could be enough of everything. A capitalist system dictates that in such a case you should hoard... even burn or bury products and delay services until demand is profitable again.

Capitalism is and will always be bad for more people than it is good for by an overwhelming margin because this pyramid structure is worked into its base design.
It can never be better, get better, or do better. It is doing exactly what it is constructed to do already... Create 1 rich person for every 10 wealthy people for every 100 middle class people for every 1000 poor people.

When a poor person becomes rich, many think the score goes from 1 rich : 1000 poor to 2 rich : 999 poor. In reality it goes from 1 rich : 1000 poor to 2 rich : 2000 poor.
The scale remains the same because the ammount of people that are suppressed to elevate a person above them remains constant.

Capitalism is demonic.

And as bad as that is it still provides better for society than socialism

 

[JahFocus CS]

But the point is you are advocating government control of the markets to control inequality, the question is why are you against capitalism, when it's capitalism that will give people property rights and will allow people to create business and open bank accounts?

Where did I advocate government control of anything? In fact, earlier in the thread, I wrote at length about how the state is a bourgeois institution and instrument of rule over the working class.

I am interested in personal and collective freedom and prosperity, not "property rights" and business creation and bank accounts. Private property is not the same as personal property.

 

[notPsychosiz]

And as bad as that is it still provides better for society than socialism

I don't believe that. But... I've never lived in a socialist enviornment, so I can't truely know.
I assume you are in a capitalist area. What makes you assume socialism is inferior?

 

[theworldismine13]

Where did I advocate government control of anything? In fact, earlier in the thread, I wrote at length about how the state is a bourgeois institution and instrument of rule over the working class.

I am interested in personal and collective freedom and prosperity, not "property rights" and business creation and bank accounts. Private property is not the same as personal property.

Didn't you just use Cuba and Tanzania as examples? According to you Cubans have collective freedom personal freedom and prosperity? You want a dictator like Castro or Nyerere controlling the working class? Those are your examples that black people should follow?

 

[theworldismine13]

I don't believe that. But... I've never lived in a socialist enviornment, so I can't truely know.
I assume you are in a capitalist area. What makes you assume socialism is inferior?

Why do you have to live in one, all you have to do is open up a book and read the history of socialist countries, like ussr, china, Cuba, North Korea etc

For more recent examples you can check out Venezuela, who is led by people spouting the same exact anti capitalist rhetoric you and others are spouting in this thread and that is a country running out of toilet paper

You do realize that your anti capitalist rhetoric was already said 100 years ago by Karl Marx right? And that basically all countries that followed his ideas have collapsed or are way behind capitalist countries by most measures

 

[JahFocus CS]

Didn't you just use Cuba and Tanzania as examples? According to you Cubans have collective freedom personal freedom and prosperity? You want a dictator like Castro Nyerere controlling the working class? Those are your examples that black people should follow?

Someone else brought up Tanzania, all I did was mention that there were gains from the struggle there. And I brought up Cuba because you said every country that had a large number of socialist policies experienced economic collapse -- yet Cuba, which in my opinion had more socialist policies than the USSR or China, is still around with its economic model and by many indicators, outperforms its capitalist neighbors for human development.

In some ways, Cubans have collective freedom and personal freedom. In some ways they do not. Just like the working class in the U.S. has freedom in some ways and in others it does not.

I do not want a dictator controlling the working class. I do not want the dictatorship of capital controlling the working class.

 

[theworldismine13]

Someone else brought up Tanzania, all I did was mention that there were gains from the struggle there. And I brought up Cuba because you said every country that had a large number of socialist policies experienced economic collapse -- yet Cuba, which in my opinion had more socialist policies than the USSR or China, is still around with its economic model and by many indicators, outperforms its capitalist neighbors for human development.

In some ways, Cubans have collective freedom and personal freedom. In some ways they do not. Just like the working class in the U.S. has freedom in some ways and in others it does not.

I do not want a dictator controlling the working class. I do not want the dictatorship of capital controlling the working class.

So let me get this straight, in your mind Cuba hasn't collapsed?

Even Castro and the current leader Raul Castro have pretty much admitted it has collapsed and have introduced capitalist reforms

Yet you are here selling garbage ass theories that we already know don't work