Black People And Capitalism DON'T Mix

[ThaRealness]

If you consider socialism to have collapsed in Cuba due to reforms, then capitalism in the OECD countries collapsed in the late 1800s/early 1900s with the introduction of universal education, firefighters, progressive taxation, social services, etc.?

I myself am not an advocate of state socialism. I do recognize that it can lead to important gains for the working class, though, such as improved health care, literacy, hunger eradication, etc. These are gains that have been made in many countries that adopted socialism.

However, again -- being that all these countries attempt to build an alternative economic model in a capitalist world, they are interfered with and undermined by outside powers and internal bourgeois elements. Socialism in One Country is an untenable proposition, largely due to that and also because individual countries have limited resources. What country really survives a state of autarky?

Even capitalism can't function in isolation like that. Hence why capitalist powers went around the world destroying barriers to capitalist expansion. Markets were opened up by force in the 1800s and 1900s (this still happens today -- Iraq in 2003 for example). Colonies were taken so that there would be more markets for goods -- look at the language senators used to justify the American occupation of the Philippines for example.

Capitalism is a world system and socialism would have to be, too. The working class is a global class.

My thoughts exactly. We live in a global capitalist economy

 

[Poitier]

Capitalism is a world system and socialism would have to be, too.

How are you supporting 7 billion people (energy, food, etc ) without mass production?

 

[JahFocus CS]

Wouldn't black people having a fair shot at utilizing capitalism mean that there would be a lot more blacks being employed for high profile, black-owned jobs and money making opportuites?

In a way, there would likely be less job discrimination and things like that if we can imagine a "Black capitalism" with a Black bourgeoisie that actively fights for independent economics. So maybe you won't get discriminated against based on your name when you apply for a job, and you won't get passed over as a candidate for a white candidate.

Nonetheless -- the class antagonism between the Black bourgeoisie and the Black working class would still be there. Because the bourgeoisie controls the means of production and extracts value from the labor of the working class, who can't sell anything except their labor. So for the masses of Afrikan people, would their material condition improve if all their bosses were also Afrikan? Not by much

 

[theworldismine13]

If you consider socialism to have collapsed in Cuba due to reforms, then capitalism in the OECD countries collapsed in the late 1800s/early 1900s with the introduction of universal education, firefighters, progressive taxation, social services, etc.?

I myself am not an advocate of state socialism. I do recognize that it can lead to important gains for the working class, though, such as improved health care, literacy, hunger eradication, etc. These are gains that have been made in many countries that adopted socialism.

However, again -- being that all these countries attempt to build an alternative economic model in a capitalist world, they are interfered with and undermined by outside powers and internal bourgeois elements. Socialism in One Country is an untenable proposition, largely due to that and also because individual countries have limited resources. What country really survives a state of autarky?

Even capitalism can't function in isolation like that. Hence why capitalist powers went around the world destroying barriers to capitalist expansion. Markets were opened up by force in the 1800s and 1900s (this still happens today -- Iraq in 2003 for example). Colonies were taken so that there would be more markets for goods -- look at the language senators used to justify the American occupation of the Philippines for example.

Capitalism is a world system and socialism would have to be, too. The working class is a global class.

Capitalism doesn't say anything either way about universal education, firefighters, progressive taxation or social services so I dont see how that is relevant to capitalism

There is no example of state socialism that comes close to matching the gains made in health care, literacy and education in capitalist counties

And again if the position of socialism is untenable in a world full of capitalist than why are you advocating that black people adopt it?

 

[Poitier]

How are you supporting 7 billion people (energy, food, etc ) without mass production?

 

[JahFocus CS]

How are you supporting 7 billion people (energy, food, etc ) without mass production?

Holy fukk, I had just stated in that post that socialism has to be a world system too, and that it is basically untenable in one country. That's why people speak of working class unity across borders. There would be mass production, across regions and globally linked where possible. There are various ideas with regards to federalism. If you are interested in learning more, I can point you to some sources.

 

[Poitier]

There would be mass production, across regions and globally linked where possible.

 

[notPsychosiz]

That begs the question, if western capitalist states have fuked with socialist states and brought about their demise

Why would black people adopt a system that can't compete with western capitalism?

I don't think thats a capitalism vs socialism thing though.

You can't be anything nowadays... socialist, communist... even capitalist as well, if you are unprepared to deal with western aggression.
The US interferes with other capitalist governments all the time.

You guys should check out a game called Democracy 3. Its a video game... but it allows for many of the scenerios you are discussing here to be tested in simulations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_(video_game)

 

[JahFocus CS]

Capitalism doesn't say anything either way about universal education, firefighters, progressive taxation or social services so I dont see how that is relevant to capitalism

There is no example of state socialism that comes close to matching the gains made in health care, literacy and education in capitalist counties

And again if the position of socialism is untenable in a world full of capitalist than why are you advocating that black people adopt it?

If you want a "free market" and no state intervention, then there shouldn't be government schools or social services. All the state should be doing is enforcing contracts and whatever else.

The thing is, all of these social services and the like are concessions from the bourgeoisie after protracted struggles by the working class. These things were not magically given! People fought and died for this shyt.

I just gave you the example of Cuba outperforming its capitalist neighbors. For fukk's sake, Cuba has matched or outperformed the U.S. on some human development measures.

If white supremacy is a global system, why bother fighting it in a single country? What kind of logic are you bringing to this discussion here . I said that socialism (like capitalism) cannot exist in a single country, it has to be a world system to function with longevity and to function as smoothly as possible. Outside capitalist powers will seek to undermine isolated pockets of socialism. That's why international working class unity is needed, because when push comes to shove, the international bourgeoisie is united against the working class.

 

[theworldismine13]

I don't think thats a capitalism vs socialism thing though.

You can't be anything nowadays... socialist, communist... even capitalist as well, if you are unprepared to deal with western aggression.
The US interferes with other capitalist governments all the time.

You guys should check out a game called Democracy 3. Its a video game... but it allows for many of the scenerios you are discussing here to be tested in simulations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_(video_game)

Yeah exactly, you have to prepared for western aggression, socialism has already been defeated by western aggression not just in terms of wealth but also on terms of human development, so it cannot be the answer to capitalism

 

[theworldismine13]

If you want a "free market" and no state intervention, then there shouldn't be government schools or social services. All the state should be doing is enforcing contracts and whatever else.

The thing is, all of these social services and the like are concessions from the bourgeoisie after protracted struggles by the working class. These things were not magically given! People fought and died for this shyt.

I just gave you the example of Cuba outperforming its capitalist neighbors. For fukk's sake, Cuba has matched or outperformed the U.S. on some human development measures.

If white supremacy is a global system, why bother fighting it in a single country? What kind of logic are you bringing to this discussion here . I said that socialism (like capitalism) cannot exist in a single country, it has to be a world system to function with longevity and to function as smoothly as possible. Outside capitalist powers will seek to undermine isolated pockets of socialism. That's why international working class unity is needed, because when push comes to shove, the international bourgeoisie is united against the working class.

Capitalism doesn't say that there shouldn't be government schools or social services, capitalism says that the government should not have a monopoly on those things

All those things are part of a democratic process, a democratic process that did not exist in Marxist countries and that is why overtime capitalism countries exceeded the human development of Marxist countries

What was the example of Cuba outperforming its capitalist neighbors, and so what if it did, the USSR out performed the us in many things

Ok when the the world wide socialist system is established then call us up, until then there is no logical reason for black people to join

 

[Malta]

So let me get this straight, in your mind Cuba hasn't collapsed?

Even Castro and the current leader Raul Castro have pretty much admitted it has collapsed and have introduced capitalist reforms

Yet you are here selling garbage ass theories that we already know don't work

Lift the embargo and give Cuba 50 years without it to make an accurate judgement of that country, using them as an example of "collapsing" is kind of

 

[Poitier]

Cuba only has 11 million

7 billion, fam. 7 BILLION.

 

[theworldismine13]

Lift the embargo and give Cuba 50 years without it to make an accurate judgement of that country, using them as an example of "collapsing" is kind of

That isn't the issue, the question is why would black people adopt a system that can't compete with western capitalism?

 

[JahFocus CS]

Capitalism doesn't say that there shouldn't be government schools or social services, capitalism says that the government should not have a monopoly on those things

All those things are part of a democratic process, a democratic process that did not exist in Marxist countries and that is why overtime capitalism countries exceeded the human development of Marxist countries

What was the example of Cuba outperforming its capitalist neighbors, and so what if it did, the USSR out performed the us in many things

Ok when the the world wide socialist system is established then call us up, until then there is no logical reason for black people to join

Many advocates of capitalism argue that the state has no business doing anything except enforcing contracts...

What is "democracy?" How is it democratic for a worker to not receive the full value of their labor and to be managed by a boss? Capitalist democracy is extraordinarily shallow. Capitalist democracy is really just the dictatorship of capital.

Salvador Allende was democratically elected president in Chile. But he was overthrown with significant U.S. intervention

Now you're just backtracking and disregarding inconvenient facts. You can go back a few pages and find where I provided sources on how Cuba outperformed its neighbors (the World Bank said this. Are they spewing Marxist propaganda? ). But you want to just dismiss that -- "so what if it did"

It makes sense for working class Afrikans to struggle for socialism. It is in their class interests. For the petit bourgeois and bourgeois Afrikans? If they have pro-human values then it makes sense to support socialism, but that means they would have to go against their material interests.