black feminism/womanism thread

[PlainSight]

well if i'm wrong, i'd like you to break it down for me. i think we're all looking at patriarchy differently. y'all see it as one big collective, where as i see teams. you could try to dismantle "white patriarchy", but you'll still have to deal with asian patriarchy, indian, arab, hispanic patriarchy.

and black women are going to have to realize that women of other races may talk a good game, but they arent going to try to dismantle their patriarchal structure.

Didn't say you were wrong, just said I don't agree. I could be the one who is wrong!

Women are likely to see it as one big collective: men. So if I try to defy my autistic diagnosis and be empathetic for a moment, I'd imagine that - despite what you say about them "talking a big game", that feminists would rather dismantle the patriarchal structure of all the races. The thing is, as men, we are conditioned over many years to uphold patriarchal values, so of course we are going to naturally oppose feminism, whether women are being subjugated or not. And we are chastised if we don't.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've been called a "white knight" recently just because I didn't think there was any harm in listening to the concerns of feminists and seeing where there can be some alleviation. Now, I understand that you think the alleviation is patriarchy, but that's of course not going to be so from the POV of feminists. They are going to want the freedom to be in charge, or do something that is not considered "feminine", or be gay, or not to be dominated by men, or even to actually be a man (trans).

I think we can come to a conclusion about economic principle and political strength without alienating or submitting our women to a secondary role that a growing number of them don't want. There are other concerns that they may have too that are less talked about. But that's pretty much how I'm looking at it, at least if I try to be subjective and view it from the woman's POV. My own objective view is that there doesn't need to be a patriarchy or a matriarchy. And the feminists that I have known (particularly one I went on a few dates with) are the same too, they are more egalitarian in nature. But they also described themselves as "third wave", which is different.

That makes sense to me - not all feminists believe in the exact same shyt as it is a collection of ideologies rather than a hive minded view. If we're gonna uplift black people then we do all have to be on the same page - whether they're gay, feminist, Christian, Muslim, Atheist etc.

 

[Gravity]

Because BM aren't the only type of men

So black women need their own separate movement to deal with oppression from non black men?

 

[Onlooker]

So black women need their own separate movement to deal with oppression from non black men?

BW need a movement to deal with oppression direct towards them.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

Ironically, Black feminism/womanism (or any type of women's rights) isn't really that mainstream amongst black women. However I've studied some of it's proponents and I like them in that while black feminism does address absurd paradigms within Western concepts of patriarchy it's criticisms are couched within, instead of indifferent to, the black racial struggle as well.

In short, yeah it supports black women's rights, but the movement doesn't get distracted from the primary struggle of the racial fukkery within the diaspora.

It's one of few women's rights movements that seeks space for men in the fight against inequality from multiple sources, be it misandry, racial discrimination, classism or otherwise.

Patricia Hills Collins' matrix of domination breaks down this idea if anyone is interested.

 

[Red Shield]

well if i'm wrong, i'd like you to break it down for me. i think we're all looking at patriarchy differently. y'all see it as one big collective, where as i see teams. you could try to dismantle "white patriarchy", but you'll still have to deal with asian patriarchy, indian, arab, hispanic patriarchy.

and black women are going to have to realize that women of other races may talk a good game, but they arent going to try to dismantle their patriarchal structure.

That what should be so damn obvious needs to be outright stated is just....

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

Here is a question: what exact proponents of black feminism are incompatible with our success as a community?

Many times I think we're so eager to emulate other cultures that we dismiss the good components of our traditional cultural ways.
In traditional black culture gender issues weren't even a factor and our community was stronger for it. Anthropologists always draw comparisons towards the egalitarian nature of traditional African cultures and western culture.

However in our desire to imitate Western culture we've inherited their divisive gender issues as well.

 

[RAX 010]

 

[Red Shield]

Here is a question: what exact proponents of black feminism are incompatible with our success as a community?

Many times I think we're so eager to emulate other cultures that we dismiss the good components of our traditional cultural ways.
In traditional black culture gender issues weren't even a factor and our community was stronger for it. Anthropologists always draw comparisons towards the egalitarian nature of traditional African cultures and western culture.

However in our desire to imitate Western culture we've inherited their divisive gender issues as well.

All that traditional african stuff was fine so long as we never came in to contact with other more aggressive warring groups.

Why shouldn't we be eager to emulate? I don't know if you have been paying any attention... but white people conquered the world pretty much and are at the top of totem.

I wonder where black people are in the totem?

If a group wants to advance, their going to have to reforge themselves to an extent. Their going to have to emulate what the dominant group does to advance.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

All that traditional african stuff was fine so long as we never came in to contact with other more aggressive warring groups.

Why shouldn't we be eager to emulate? I don't know if you have been paying any attention... but white people conquered the world pretty much and are at the top of totem.

I wonder where black people are in the totem?

If a group wants to advance, their going to have to reforge themselves to an extent. Their going to have to emulate what the dominant group does to advance.

I like the part about reforming ourselves but common sense would indicate that we will keep the good and avoid the bad. Also emulating other cultures doesn't work because we as a people are different. We learn differently, react differently, ect.

But here's my biggest problem, why emulate such a flawed system. Western culture isn't successful based on it's own merits. It's only had measures of success through a sick underbelly of corruption, propaganda, organized crime, lies and manipulation. If We've got to win using those tactics, we've already lost. You don't become a monster to fight a monster. I'm channeling my Alucard references lol!

 

[Red Shield]

I like the part about reforming ourselves but common sense would indicate that we will keep the good and avoid the bad. Also emulating other cultures doesn't work because we as a people are different. We learn differently, react differently, ect.

But here's my biggest problem, why emulate such a flawed system. Western culture isn't successful based on it's own merits. It's only had measures of success through a sick underbelly of corruption, propaganda, organized crime, lies and manipulation. If We've got to win using those tactics, we've already lost. You don't become a monster to fight a monster. I'm channeling my Alucard references lol!

Sure western culture is successful based on it's own merits. Wouldn't call those measures of success, a sick underbelly. Every advanced society before the current west had corruption, some propaganda, lies, manipulation, etc...

all of that seedy shyt is part of how a society advances...

If black people are not willing to use all of the tools. If black people are unwilling to change. To become monsters, to do whatever it takes... then black people can join all the other groups who no longer exist.

 

[⠝⠕⠏⠑]

Sure western culture is successful based on it's own merits. Wouldn't call those measures of success, a sick underbelly. Every advanced society before the current west had corruption, some propaganda, lies, manipulation, etc...

all of that seedy shyt is part of how a society advances...

If black people are not willing to use all of the tools. If black people are unwilling to change. To become monsters, to do whatever it takes... then black people can join all the other groups who no longer exist.

Give me one success that whites have had without reliance on oppression of others, stolen culture, or straight up lying on others.

Also we're open to change but that's not the change we need. Who on earth would imitate the toxicity of a culture that is literally falling apart and has brought our world to the brink of extinction? The excesses of Western culture has resulted in nearly every area of current existence being fukked up. I'm telling you blks don't need to exchange our issues for those problems. In fact I'd argue, ironically enuff, most of our culture issues come from trying to emulate Westerm culture.

 

[PlainSight]

Give me one success that whites have had without reliance on oppression of others, stolen culture, or straight up lying on others.

Also we're open to change but that's not the change we need. Who on earth would imitate the toxicity of a culture that is literally falling apart and has brought our world to the brink of extinction? The excesses of Western culture has resulted in nearly every area of current existence being fukked up. I'm telling you blks don't need to exchange our issues for those problems. In fact I'd argue, ironically enuff, most of our culture issues come from trying to emulate Westerm culture.

We would do well to uplift ourselves by doing what we do best and that's innovating

 

[Kufismack]

Feminism =

 

[EndDomination]

i will not support feminism as they are inherently destructive and counterproductive towards a stable black patriarchy.

Then I wouldn't hold my breath about you supporting feminism, patriarchy is the primary issue feminists struggle against.
JBO is in a different section.

 

[godkiller]

Here is a question: what exact proponents of black feminism are incompatible with our success as a community?

One incompatible proponent of black feminism is when black feminists try to erode black masculinity and patriarchy as a means to further black female freedom. Because as black patriarchy shrinks, white, Asian, Arab, etc patriarchy and power grows. Black feminists even go so far as to aid and abet white supremacists, whether they realize it or not. This rails against black success as a community.

Many times I think we're so eager to emulate other cultures that we dismiss the good components of our traditional cultural ways.
In traditional black culture gender issues weren't even a factor and our community was stronger for it. Anthropologists always draw comparisons towards the egalitarian nature of traditional African cultures and western culture.

In traditional African cultures, black men have undisputed rule. Tribal leaders and chieftans--most always men--make decisions. There is no necessary egalitarianism in African culture. Black men do naturally give women rights, but this is not to say that society itself is egalitarian. There are egalitarian parts, but the whole is still ruled by black men.

However in our desire to imitate Western culture we've inherited their divisive gender issues as well.

You are mischaracterising African culture. Women do not traditionally have power outside the house in black countries.