Bill Maher on minimum wage

[Tommy Fits]

We distribute so much aid, in such a way, that the overall incentive to work hard is diminished.

It creates a vicious cycle of, people under achieving, bleeding hearts demanding care for them, leading to more underachievers, and more bleeding hearts demanding more care for them, and so on and so on... it never ends.

Just curious, do you have any proof to back this up, having actually lived it, maybe I'm just the outlier but this argument is such bullshyt. 15 years ago when my family went on food stamps, it was one the lowest points of my life. Going into a supermarket to buy something and the only cashier being open was someone I went to high school with. The pathetic amount of assistance we received, the getting spoken to like we're trash while applying for food stamps, and being poor white trash in school wasn't all that great and glamorous like you like to say it is. It didn't motivate me to stay on assistance and be a leech on the system. I never wanted to relive those years and swore when I have children of my own they would never have to experience that. And before you go on about well my parents shouldn't of made mistakes and they should have picked themselves up by the bootstraps, that was exactly what my Father had done with his life. He was a high school drop out from a family of alcoholics living hand to mouth and stealing to survive. Instead of being a leech on the gov't, like all people who grow up on Aid or so conservatives say happens, he started his own sewer cleaning company. A successful one at that, he had an accident that left him paralyzed from the waist down and in severe pain 24/7, funny in the aid argument these scenario's are never possible, we're all just leeches. With all that said about how going on aid makes us lazy, and look I'm not looking for any sympathy from anyone can I please see some proof of how Aid kills our ambition and drive. I can you provide proof other than your bullshyt talking point ? And I'm not trying to sway your opinion on gov't aid because I know I won't and I don't care quite frankly. I just want proof of this bullshyt talking point. And also if you reply to me can you please do it without the smileys, we're grown men here not 14 year olds with ADHD.

 

[ghostwriterx]

"kly do help too much .

We distribute so much aid, in such a way, that the overall incentive to work hard is diminished.

It creates a vicious cycle of, people under achieving, bleeding hearts demanding care for them, leading to more underachievers, and more bleeding hearts demanding more care for them, and so on and so on... it never ends."

These are tired and long discredited right wing talking points.


From the US Department of Health and Services Report on Welfare Dependency


Some highlights:

In FY 2009, 42.4 percent of welfare recipients were working or participating in work related activities compared to 7 percent in 1992.6

(Welfare) recipiency can be defined fairly easily, based on the presence of benefits from AFDC/TANF, FSP/SNAP, or SSI


As defined in the report: "Welfare dependence is the proportion of all individuals in families that receive more than half of their total family income in one year from TANF, SNAP, and/or SSI."


Welfare Recipiency in 93 was 16.6% in 2009 it was 19.9% much of the increase is attributable to the recession. Dependency actually fell over this period from 5.9% to 4.6%


It is important to note that more than half of those that rely on SNAP (Food Stamps) are children, elderly, or disabled. SNAP is also an important support for working families—62 percent of SNAP recipients are in families with labor force participants. Furthermore, SNAP receipt does not necessarily imply long term dependency, as over 60 percent of SNAP entrants remain on the program for a year or less. The Congressional Budget Office’s latest projections show that once the economy fully recovers, SNAP is expected to return to pre-recession levels as a share of the gross domestic product.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/13/Indicators/rpt.pdf

 

[DEAD7]

And I hope you realize your argument is supportive of indentured servitude and a stones throw away from slavery, no hyperbole here but you're all for corporations paying sweatshop wages so long as people are learning skills? Can you really not see the flaw in that argument, particularly when the people writing the payroll checks are eating like fat cats? Quite literally you want the US to turn into a 3rd world country...?

This doesnt hold up to scrutiny, if the idea was to simply pay the lowest possible wage, how in the world is anyone making more than min wage?
and we weren't a 3rd world country before min wage was implemented, so that claim is unfounded.
I could be wrong though do you have any evidence showing a link between 3rd world nations and a lack of min wage laws?

Also what we have now going on in the streets is worse than working for $3/hr IMHO

 

[Brown_Pride]

and somehow we lead the world... imagine that.

and we've done that with welfare this whole time? Maybe it's not as bad as you're making it out to be?

 

[DEAD7]

Just curious, do you have any proof to back this up, having actually lived it, maybe I'm just the outlier but this argument is such bullshyt. 15 years ago when my family went on food stamps, it was one the lowest points of my life. Going into a supermarket to buy something and the only cashier being open was someone I went to high school with. The pathetic amount of assistance we received, the getting spoken to like we're trash while applying for food stamps, and being poor white trash in school wasn't all that great and glamorous like you like to say it is. It didn't motivate me to stay on assistance and be a leech on the system. I never wanted to relive those years and swore when I have children of my own they would never have to experience that. And before you go on about well my parents shouldn't of made mistakes and they should have picked themselves up by the bootstraps, that was exactly what my Father had done with his life. He was a high school drop out from a family of alcoholics living hand to mouth and stealing to survive. Instead of being a leech on the gov't, like all people who grow up on Aid or so conservatives say happens, he started his own sewer cleaning company. A successful one at that, he had an accident that left him paralyzed from the waist down and in severe pain 24/7, funny in the aid argument these scenario's are never possible, we're all just leeches. With all that said about how going on aid makes us lazy, and look I'm not looking for any sympathy from anyone can I please see some proof of how Aid kills our ambition and drive. I can you provide proof other than your bullshyt talking point ? And I'm not trying to sway your opinion on gov't aid because I know I won't and I don't care quite frankly. I just want proof of this bullshyt talking point. And also if you reply to me can you please do it without the smileys, we're grown men here not 14 year olds with ADHD.

The embarrassment sounds like incentive to get off, and I'm a big fan of that. Now imagine if the stigma was lessened and the amount provided more than enough...
That incentive is reduced, and continuously reduced the more we improve aid to the poor.
I personally want every person on it to hate it, and feel like they have to work to get off of it.

I'm not gonna debate the particulars of your personal experience... there is really nothing I can say about it, having not lived it.

 

[DEAD7]

and we've done that with welfare this whole time? Maybe it's not as bad as you're making it out to be?

 

[Brown_Pride]

This doesnt hold up to scrutiny, if the idea was to simply pay the lowest possible wage, how in the world is anyone making more than min wage?
and we weren't a 3rd world country before min wage was implemented, so that claim is unfounded.
I could be wrong though do you have any evidence showing a link between 3rd world nations and a lack of min wage laws?

you're right. In fact it's really beneficial for a nation to have cheap labor like that, i mean look at china. We should strive to be more like that no? 3rd world countries tend to have a myriad of problems. But here you go make the connections yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

There are also two pretty good reads here :
http://ftp.iza.org/dp5702.pdf and http://www.fordham.edu/economics/mcleod/Lustig&McLeod_small.pdf

Turns out minimum wage helps more than hurts, who'd have thunk it.

Also it should be noted that money=power right? Is it better for more people to have power(money) or less people to have it?

Your arguments would have the world racing to the bottom, it's minimum wages that have protected the standard of living here in america, do away with that and watch as shyt falls apart and walmarts start paying it's employees $3 an hour.

 

[DEAD7]

These are tired and long discredited right wing talking points.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/13/Indicators/rpt.pdf

Lumping old people and the handicapped into the fray does give numbers pleasing to the eye, and pointing out that children rely on it draws an emotional connection, but we both know thats not what we are discussing.

I'll play ball though,
Its not monetary cost alone that comes with these policies... and its not the monetary cost that are the issue, its the hidden cost. The cost you cant see in graphs or polls.

Again, the more you subsidize something the more of it you get... This is true across the board, from food and gas, to underage pregnancy and education.

 

[Brown_Pride]

The embarrassment sounds like incentive to get off, and I'm a big fan of that. Now imagine if the stigma was lessened and the amount provided more than enough...
That incentive is reduced, and continuously reduced the more we improve aid to the poor.
I personally want every person on it to hate it, and feel like they have to work to get off of it.

I'm not gonna debate the particulars of your personal experience... there is really nothing I can say about it, having not lived it.

this highlights your fundamental understand of humans, or lack there of. You may want everyone to hate it, and perhaps in a perfect world that would be the case, but it's not. Not everyone is the same and where some would respond with feeling shameful, others respond with depression and nihilism. No i'm going to assume your response would be "well fuk those people they don't deserve to live" or perhaps "that's not my problem" you'll find we've then come full circle and I'll say, "those people ARE your problem though".

Thinking more about our other conversations you seam very hung up on debating small things (like welfare, minimum wage) but not so adamant about looking at the overall problems...and there potential solutions.

 

[Brown_Pride]

Lumping old people and the handicapped into the fray does give numbers pleasing to the eye, and pointing out that children rely on it draws an emotional connection, but we both know thats not what we are discussing.

I'll play ball though,
Its not monetary cost alone that comes with these policies... and its not the monetary cost that are the issue, its the hidden cost. The cost you cant see in graphs or polls.

Again, the more you subsidize something the more of it you get... This is true across the board, from food and gas, to underage pregnancy and education.

I really need an answer to this question.

A shyt mother does crack all the time, she has a son.
75% of the assistance she gets is converted into crack
25% is used to feed the kid.

Do you stop giving the mom assistance?

There are no other solutions in this scenario. It's not tied to reality, it's more a principles question. Very black and white, do you give the mom assistance knowing the kid only get's 25% of it or do you stop giving to her altogether?

 

[DEAD7]

you're right. In fact it's really beneficial for a nation to have cheap labor like that, i mean look at china. We should strive to be more like that no? 3rd world countries tend to have a myriad of problems. But here you go make the connections yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm

There are also two pretty good reads here :
http://ftp.iza.org/dp5702.pdf and http://www.fordham.edu/economics/mcleod/Lustig&McLeod_small.pdf

Turns out minimum wage helps more than hurts, who'd have thunk it.

Also it should be noted that money=power right? Is it better for more people to have power(money) or less people to have it?

Your arguments would have the world racing to the bottom, it's minimum wages that have protected the standard of living here in america, do away with that and watch as shyt falls apart and walmarts start paying it's employees $3 an hour.

@ Using socialist/communist nations to discredit the market.

But seriously, why isnt everyone making the min wage if your logic is sound?







I also like the way its insinuated people have to work/shop at wal mart, as if there is a gun to peoples heads lol.
If any of you believe a company could stay afloat paying employees here in the U.S. $1/hr or nothing, you dont understand economics.

 

[DEAD7]

this highlights your fundamental understand of humans, or lack there of. You may want everyone to hate it, and perhaps in a perfect world that would be the case, but it's not. Not everyone is the same and where some would respond with feeling shameful, others respond with depression and nihilism. No i'm going to assume your response would be "well fuk those people they don't deserve to live" or perhaps "that's not my problem" you'll find we've then come full circle and I'll say, "those people ARE your problem though".

Thinking more about our other conversations you seam very hung up on debating small things (like welfare, minimum wage) but not so adamant about looking at the overall problems...and there potential solutions.

Ending corporatism and opening the market...

Along with a stricter adherence to the constitution...

The rest is just a matter of time.

In my opinion of course.

 

[DEAD7]

I really need an answer to this question.

A shyt mother does crack all the time, she has a son.
75% of the assistance she gets is converted into crack
25% is used to feed the kid.

Do you stop giving the mom assistance?

There are no other solutions in this scenario. It's not tied to reality, it's more a principles question. Very black and white, do you give the mom assistance knowing the kid only get's 25% of it or do you stop giving to her altogether?

If we are giving assistance, and she qualifies. I see no reason to stop...

 

[ghostwriterx]

Lumping old people and the handicapped into the fray does give numbers pleasing to the eye, and pointing out that children rely on it draws an emotional connection, but we both know thats not what we are discussing.

[/quote]
You imply that people on welfare are lazy and dependent and won't work to get off it. When faced with the fact that 50% of people on welfare are kids, disabled and elderly (you know people who can't work), "I'm not talking about that."

I'll play ball though,
Its not monetary cost alone that comes with these policies... and its not the monetary cost that are the issue, its the hidden cost. The cost you cant see in graphs or polls.

Oh I see, its about the "cost"... the one you can't seem to articulate.


"60 percent of SNAP entrants remain on the program for a year or less." And welfare recipency has risen 3% over the last 15 years, With the bulk of that increase directly correlating with the recession that started in 2009. And this is your response?

Again, the more you subsidize something the more of it you get... This is true across the board, from food and gas, to underage pregnancy and education.

LOL in other words. "I'm not interested in facts. I just want to demonize the poor by continuing to spout my false assumptions.

BTW
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/teen-birth-rate-hits-historic-low-officials-say-8C11086339

 

[Brown_Pride]

@ Using socialist/communist nations to discredit the market.

But seriously, why isnt everyone making the min wage if your logic is sound?




I also like the way its insinuated people have to work/shop at wal mart, as if there is a gun to peoples heads lol.
If any of you believe a company could stay afloat paying employees here in the U.S. $1/hr or nothing, you dont understand economics.

OIC so because there are some people NOT making minimum wage then there should be no minimum wage?

You know what? At this point fuk it. Cancel minimum wage and welfare, social security (if so i want my money back) & medicaid, let's roll the dice and see what happens.

What do you think will happen?