Religion/Spirituality Atheism and the black community...good read

[Blackking]

Nothing about this is about strength. Really, this is about the ability to live freely. One shouldn't have to summon strength for that. More importantly, if one takes issue with the way in which a community excludes its peers for a given reason, their expression of it shouldn't be dispensed with on account of not having enough strength or fortitude.

I'm just taking issue with an aspect of a monolith that I detest. And honestly, while I would like to see it happen, I don't give a damn for some imaginary Black community and it's future as much as I care for the ability of individuals to express themselves and perform themselves freely.

I'm sick of everything being reduced to "our" in among Blacks. "Our" is recalcitrant and stultifying. It mutes indefinitely, as does "strength". I am myself, who chooses to take issues with what he pleases as he pleases before, long before, I am a member of the Black community (even if I will always be seen as Black before I am seen as myself, yet another element of "Blackness" and images of Blackness that I dislike), as should all others. That requires no "our" and no "strength", just insight and knowledge of desires.

(And if you or anyone else thinks that this is a "self-hatred" or "anti-Blackness" post, you're severely missing the point.)

I like this thread. I know the word recalcitrant now. Thank you for that.


And you can live freely breh... as much as any black man can. You can live the normal life as a black man, just don't go to church.

 

[TrueEpic08]

I like this thread. I know the word recalcitrant now. Thank you for that.


And you can live freely breh... as much as any black man can. You can live the normal life as a black man, just don't go to church.

Then you know my use of it was, at best, ironic (I prefer detourned) and at worse just kind of wrong.

Whatever, I can take questioning about my ideologies, I've been doing it for over a decade. I just don't like seeing pressure put on others, even when they don't think like me (and most people don't think like my libertine self).

 

[Blackking]

Then you know my use of it was, at best, ironic (I prefer detourned) and at worse just kind of wrong.

Whatever, I can take questioning about my ideologies, I've been doing it for over a decade. I just don't like seeing pressure put on others, even when they don't think like me (and most people don't think like my libertine self).

Yea.. I looked the word up. But it's a really good word tho, that I'm def gonna be using.

Do you feel that a religious person could also be a libertine thinker?

 

[Bondye Vodou]

I'm agnostic but I never tell ppl around me that know you know how dumb black ppl get over their beloved fake ass religions.

 

[TrueEpic08]

Yea.. I looked the word up. But it's a really good word tho, that I'm def gonna be using.

Do you feel that a religious person could also be a libertine thinker?

By the very definition of the word:

1. One who acts without moral restraint; a dissolute person.
2. One who defies established religious precepts; a freethinker.

not really. Being a libertine is pretty much contingent upon acting against accepted, orthodox ethics and ideologies, religion being most prominent. Someone like a Paul Verlaine (who converted to Catholicism at around 30, but was still a bit of a derelict until the end of his life over 20 years later) would be close, but breaking with the moral and ethical restraints of religion is almost a given to be a libertine (and really, I'm not much of one either. I think like one and, at this point, don't do monogamous relationships, marriage or orthodox ethics as a matter of principle, but I'm far too restrained for it. There's a certain offensiveness to libertinism that I don't really have. Controversy, maybe, as you can see whenever I write something significant on the board, but offensiveness, not quite. Honestly, part of what I want to study is the very possibility of libertinism within a society where what would be banned decades ago is merely the work of an eccentric now, for the most part).

Others...Charles Baudelaire was semi-religious, yet fervently mocked it in his poetry, and John Wilmot converted to Anglicanism as he died, which basically means nothing. So no.

Though really, this is just one strain of free-thinking.

 

[you're NOT "n!ggas"]

You're not making sense here. It has nothing to do with opposition. It has to do with people ostracizing you, which is not the same as insulting you. If a community excludes you, holding your head up or whatever vague solution you're suggesting won't magically make you part of that community again. Worse, look at the posts in this thread. When atheists do "walk with heads high," including openly stating their beliefs, they're accused of being arrogant, petty, or disrespectful- not accepted for being "strong."

Basically, you're trying to have it both ways right now. When atheists complain, they're weak. When they act proud, then they're arrogant, mean, and disrespectful. This is exactly part of the problem.

THANK YOU. It's killing me how these cats are acting like there isn't repression and ostracizism against open non-believers. I don't care WHAT race you are, there's social consequences to it. As blacks the consequences are even worse, the only group comparable to us (actually, mush much worse) is arabs that defect from Islam.

How are WE are the ones petty and disrespectful? For posting some shyt on a hip hop forum... what implications does this have in personal life? There's people in here talking about how they've had family member and friends badger them for YEARS now about coming back to church and that's not disrespectful??? no because that's actually part of their duty as christians, that's just "christian love". I could hear this shyt if nonbelievers were trying to convert their family and friends, or outcast them because of their difference in belief (despite being the same person), or have their morals brought into question and so on but that's not whats happening.

and the wild thing about it is christians THEMSELVES will complain about the way other christians are passing judgement on them for their lifestyle choices and decisions and yet its still remains that WE are the petty, disrespectful, and unrelenting ones.... that shyt ain't cool man

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

i said what i said

until reality meets up w/ the internet, then this is a dismissable internet side show


lol at ostracized and rejected

fukk a stat sheet. the black experience cannot be quantified. and i dont need a chart to tell me how me and mines get down

Cool, but this is ignorant, abhorrent shallow majoritarianism which ironically is one of the fundamental reasons of why black people and other minorities were oppressed and not given their due respect as human beings throughout this country. You're basically saying they number in the minority so fukk 'em.

As long as you look at the black community as simply a monolith with a collective interest dominated by the majority instead of one that is diverse and pluralistic, and show concern for the humanity and individuality of all those who comprise it, you are short-sighted and espousing poor ethical principle.

according to the current black/gay media circus and polls and studies , black people reject gay people w/ virtual unanimity but even the most flamboyant of them walk around black america in the HEART OF THE HOODS w/ impunity and pride. all up in the church whereever they please. ud get ran on as a regular dude than much quicker than a dude w/ lipstick and eyeliner.but u wont find a poll saying that, so i guess it aint a viable point for the internet

i say all that to say

if they can find their niche, you all can too. this aint a serious issue

Nobody in the media says blacks reject gay people "with virtual unanimity." You're severely exaggerating.

And so what gay people walk around the hood, lol. What is your point? Allowing people to be able to walk around without getting violently attacked is the only standard we should have toward each other as a community? As long as people aren't getting beat up everything in terms of interpersonal relationships is all good in the community?

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

THANK YOU. It's killing me how these cats are acting like there isn't repression and ostracizism against open non-believers. I don't care WHAT race you are, there's social consequences to it. As blacks the consequences are even worse, the only group comparable to us (actually, mush much worse) is arabs that defect from Islam.

How are WE are the ones petty and disrespectful? For posting some shyt on a hip hop forum... what implications does this have in personal life? There's people in here talking about how they've had family member and friends badger them for YEARS now about coming back to church and that's not disrespectful??? no because that's actually part of their duty as christians, that's just "christian love". I could hear this shyt if nonbelievers were trying to convert their family and friends, or outcast them because of their difference in belief (despite being the same person), or have their morals brought into question and so on but that's not whats happening.

and the wild thing about it is christians THEMSELVES will complain about the way other christians are passing judgement on them for their lifestyle choices and decisions and yet its still remains that WE are the petty, disrespectful, and unrelenting ones.... that shyt ain't cool man

This thread is funny. Look at how it started with nonreligious black folks just discussing religion and their communities and their experiences in a civil manner. Then look at how a few religious posters came in hating, petty, and disrespectful, calling people names, dismissing experiences, and telling people to shut up.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

But I don't see religion as being something that will hold my generation back. I think that by and large, people have adapted it to contemporary society, and its the remnants of the past that are the issue. No matter the denomination, the youth are more progressive than their parents. That trend will only continue among theists and atheists alike.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Yeah, the trend will continue overall, but maybe not uniformly in all communities and geographical locations in the country.

In some places, you're already seeing a regressive, irrational pushback against social change and perceived threat or encroachment on their culture and way of life sort of similar to what happened in many middle eastern nations in the latter part of last century, though not as extreme...all this tea party God, guns, and gold funfamentalist/survivalist/nationalist nonsense.

This isn't Iran, we have more freedom of information and legal freedoms. And overall, the country will continue to be more progressive with successive generations. But don't underestimate how much many will fiercely cling to their fundamentalism and instill that in their kids on some Jesus Camp shyt. The more people isolate themselves, and the more society moves in the opposite direction, the more extreme they tend to get. They will be a minority yes, but enough to be a problem for those in or around those environments.

 

[FlimFlam]

Cool, but this is ignorant, abhorrent shallow majoritarianism which ironically is one of the fundamental reasons of why black people and other minorities were oppressed and not given their due respect as human beings throughout this country. You're basically saying they number in the minority so fukk 'em.

As long as you look at the black community as simply a monolith with a collective interest dominated by the majority instead of one that is diverse and pluralistic, and show concern for the humanity and individuality of all those who comprise it,



Nobody in the media says blacks reject gay people "with virtual unanimity." You're severely exaggerating.

And so what gay people walk around the hood, lol. What is your point? Allowing people to be able to walk around without getting violently attacked is the only standard we should have toward each other as a community? As long as people aren't getting beat up everything in terms of interpersonal relationships is all good in the community?

if u wanna play semantics then do u. the whole basis of this current fascination w/ black perceptions on gays revolves around stats. and its accentuated that the result of their stats show a healthy majority disapprove with whatever their asking about gays. now if u want a drawn out inane debate about the accuracy of me saying "virtual unanimity" then i cant help you.

now moving along..

whats up w/ these loaded presumptive questions?

"Allowing people to be able to walk around without getting violently attacked is the only standard we should have toward each other as a community? As long as people aren't getting beat up everything in terms of interpersonal relationships is all good in the community?"

im suppose to answer to positions i didnt even advance in the first place?

You're basically saying they number in the minority so fukk 'em...

As long as you look at the black community as simply a monolith...

...you are short-sighted and espousing poor ethical principle.

just straight up telling me what i think and how i feel. and it doesnt even match up to what i posted in this thread

then u immediately post this afterwards

Then look at how a few religious posters came in hating, petty, and disrespectful, calling people names, dismissing experiences, and telling people to shut up.

if ur gonna try to post from some moral tower at least TRY to follow what ur supposedly exuding. uve been very belligerent in this thread now u wanna whine about it? cmon man

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

if u wanna play semantics then do u. the whole basis of this current fascination w/ black perceptions on gays revolves around stats. and its accentuated that the result of their stats show a healthy majority disapprove with whatever their asking about gays. now if u want a drawn out inane debate about the accuracy of me saying "virtual unanimity" then i cant help you.

now moving along..

This has nothing to do with semantics, it's about accuracy. Nobody says black people reject gays with virtual unanimity.

whats up w/ these loaded presumptive questions?



im suppose to answer to positions i didnt advance in the first place?

So what was your point in bringing up that gay people walk around in the heart of the hood for? What does that have to do with anything? It sounds to me like you're saying homophobia is strongly present in the black people but gay people are allowed to walk freely around in black neighborhoods without harm, so therefore black atheists, another group generally rejected in the black community, don't have right to complain about whatever rejection whether perceived or real they receive.

then u immediately post this afterwards





if ur gonna try to post from some moral tower at least TRY to follow what ur supposedly exuding

This makes no sense. If you're trying to imply some sort of contradiction, I see none.

 

[FlimFlam]

So what was your point in bringing up that gay people walk around in the heart of the hood for? What does that have to do with anything? It sounds to me like you're saying homophobia is strongly present in the black people but gay people are allowed to walk freely around in black neighborhoods without harm, so therefore black atheists, another group generally rejected in the black community, don't have right to complain about whatever rejection whether perceived or real they receive.

my point,as i said, was if they can find their niche, u can too

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

my point,as i said, was if they can find their niche, u can too

I've found my niche and this isn't about me. I'm lucky enough to have a family that doesn't distance themself from me and a wife that's open-minded about it, which isn't the case for everyone.

That doesn't mean that the phenomena we're discussing doesn't have real life problematic consequences in terms of relationships between people, couples, families, and communities.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about or try to address the problem of religious dogma in the black community and how it can stifle freedom and individuality.

And it doesn't mean this is something that should be dismissed or scoffed at.

 

[FlimFlam]

"you" as in the athiest collective .you alls niche can be found in the black community as a whole

as far as dogma stifling the black community...idk..as a whole, we've been kind of an unprincipled "anything goes" collective for some time now. and it hasnt resulted in anything good lol

 

[daze23]

Personally, I don't know any black atheists, at least that I'm aware of. So all I have to go off is the coli. And these nikkas are disrespectful and condescending as fukk. So nobody should give a fukk if they wanna boo hoo. These fakkits need to suck it up. They're the minority and most people don't like them with just cause.

Why would anyone abandon their life's guide to join a bunch of ignorant acting, intolerant fakkit lovers?

I'm just saying. Atheists brought the hate upon themselves.