Archaeologists find two 'lost cities' deep in Honduras jungle

[GetInTheTruck]

Dude if this 'dumb shyt' goes against your indoctrination don't blame me! I quoted scientists who gave multiple evidence on multiple levels of Africoid settlement in India. Go to the link and disconfirm it on a case by case basis then we can talk.

You didn't quote scientists, you posted a website that references blog sites and youtube videos as evidence that push theories that have long been discredited by genuine academics and scholars who are actually qualified to speak on the fields in question, genetics, archaeology, anthropology, and linguistics.

Like I said earlier, there is no evidence for any significant migration from Africa into the Indian sub-continent within the neolithic era (within the last 10,000-12,000 years). The people who push this crap are well aware of this, that's why they try to fool gullible people like you into focusing on long discredited methods of determining identity and ethnicity ie; physical appearance -"these people have dark skin, they must be africoid" and hodge-podge language analysis - "these words sound the same so that much mean the languages must be related." Sorry, but that that's not how it works. This isn't the 1800's, nobody says "Africoid" anymore.

The earliest records of Ge'ez script dates to the early Christian era as it was the script used by the Ethiopian church, Devanagari script is derived from the Brahmi script, which dates to at least 300 b.c. as per the ashoka carvings. It may be older than that however, since the Buddhist canons which tell of events that occurred in 600 b.c. clearly speak of writing. Scholars today are split on whether Brahmi was inspired by Aramaic script or if it arose organically within India itself, as a descendant of the Indus Valley script.

Regarding genetics, here's a chart showing the genetic affinities of different Indian populations, north and south, across caste lines:

How much African do you see? Oh ok.

 

[thekyuke]

You didn't quote scientists, you posted a website that references blog sites and youtube videos as evidence that push theories that have long been discredited by genuine academics and scholars who are actually qualified to speak on the fields in question, genetics, archaeology, anthropology, and linguistics.

Like I said earlier, there is no evidence for any significant migration from Africa into the Indian sub-continent within the neolithic era (within the last 10,000-12,000 years). The people who push this crap are well aware of this, that's why they try to fool gullible people like you into focusing on long discredited methods of determining identity and ethnicity ie; physical appearance -"these people have dark skin, they must be africoid" and hodge-podge language analysis - "these words sound the same so that much mean the languages must be related." Sorry, but that that's not how it works. This isn't the 1800's, nobody says "Africoid" anymore.

The earliest records of Ge'ez script dates to the early Christian era as it was the script used by the Ethiopian church, Devanagari script is derived from the Brahmi script, which dates to at least 300 b.c. as per the ashoka carvings. It may be older than that however, since the Buddhist canons which tell of events that occurred in 600 b.c. clearly speak of writing. Scholars today are split on whether Brahmi was inspired by Aramaic script or if it arose organically within India itself, as a descendant of the Indus Valley script.

Regarding genetics, here's a chart showing the genetic affinities of different Indian populations, north and south, across caste lines:

How much African do you see? Oh ok.

This doesn't help identify the ORIGINAL INDIAN population. Fyi,laymen all too easily confuse genetic mapping since haplogroups are often deliberately misnomered.IIRC,Cacs in 2010 said King Tut was white since he had Haplogroup R ,a 'white' haplogroup! What they didn't say is that this originates in W Africa.

https://www.academia.edu/10306654/AFRICAN_AND_DRAVIDIAN_ORIGINS_OF_THE_MELANESIANS
"However, the overwhelming evidence available from the toponymic corpuses of Koraput and Nigeria, and ethnonyms, surnames and personal names of Koyas seem more adequate to propose an African origin to the Koyas, the Dravidian speakers" (p.177). Page (1988) noted the numerous African place names in "
Read the whole the whole thing!

Also see where Kols and Gonds got their Y-Hg,T-M70 and HI from!
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379509640_Winters.pdf
Its not much but crucially it says: :the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of African-Dravidian connection."

These 2 examples of Gondhs show we don't need any Cac to ID our own!

Look closely!

Read the above and the evidence I presented which you deliberately ignored-it all makes sense.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

This doesn't help identify the ORIGINAL INDIAN population. Fyi,laymen all too easily confuse genetic mapping since haplogroups are often deliberately misnomered.IIRC,Cacs in 2010 said King Tut was white since he had Haplogroup R ,a 'white' haplogroup! What they didn't say is that this originates in W Africa.

https://www.academia.edu/10306654/AFRICAN_AND_DRAVIDIAN_ORIGINS_OF_THE_MELANESIANS
"However, the overwhelming evidence available from the toponymic corpuses of Koraput and Nigeria, and ethnonyms, surnames and personal names of Koyas seem more adequate to propose an African origin to the Koyas, the Dravidian speakers" (p.177). Page (1988) noted the numerous African place names in "
Read the whole the whole thing!

Also see where Kols and Gonds got their Y-Hg,T-M70 and HI from!
http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379509640_Winters.pdf
Its not much but crucially it says: :the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of African-Dravidian connection."

These 2 examples of Gondhs show we don't need any Cac to ID our own!

Look closely!

Read the above and the evidence I presented which you deliberately ignored-it all makes sense.

Again, you are playing the picture game. That isn't how this is done anymore. There is no evidence of any African migration into India within the past 10,000 years, and updated genetic analysis demonstrates just that. Look it up on your own, it's all out there.

As for your sources, I'm familiar with Clyde winters, he's one of the only guys still promoting this stuff...none of his research has been subject to peer review and accepted by the academic community. Because of this he has largely been spreading his theories via the internet, and forums like egyptsearch.com. He isn't a geneticist or a linguist either.

Please upgrade your sources.

 

[thekyuke]

Again, you are playing the picture game. That isn't how this is done anymore. There is no evidence of any African migration into India within the past 10,000 years, and updated genetic analysis demonstrates just that. Look it up on your own, it's all out there.

As for your sources, I'm familiar with Clyde winters, he's one of the only guys still promoting this stuff...none of his research has been subject to peer review and accepted by the academic community. Because of this he has largely been spreading his theories via the internet, and forums like egyptsearch.com. He isn't a geneticist or a linguist either.

Please upgrade your sources.

That's not how it goes. You can't dismiss his findings so cavalierly when its been peer reviewed and published. Look at his sources:

REFERENCES
Balakrishnan R (2005).
African roots of the Dravidian-speaking Tribes: A case in Onomastics,
International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics
34
(1) 153-202.
Bellwood P (1979).
Man's Conquest of the Pacific
(Oxford, New York).
Bellwood P (1991).
The Austronesian Dispersal and the Origin of Languages.
Scientific American
88-93.
Benedict PK (1990).
Japanese/Austro-Tai, Ann Arbor:Karoma, 1990.
Bulbeck D (2008).
Australian Aboriginal craniometrics as construed through FORDISC, 2005. Available: http://arts.anu.edu.au/bullda/oz_craniometrics.html [Accessed on 4/2/2008].
Chang KC (1964).
Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China.
Current Anthropology
5
359-375.
Chang KC (1977).
The Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977).
Chang KC (1980).
Shang Civilization
(Yale University Press: New Haven).
Chang KC (1987).
Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press.)
Cordaux
et al.,
(2003).
Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India.
European Journal of Human Genetics
11
(2) 253-264.
Craib JL (1983).
Micronesian Prehistory An Archaeological Overview.
Science
219
919-927.
Fredlaender JS, Friedlaender FR, Hodgson JA, Stoltz M, Koki G, Horvat G, Zhadanov S, Schurr TG and Merriwether DA (2007).
Melanesian mtDNA complexity,
PLoS ONE
2
(2) 248.
Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S (2001).
Mitochondrial DNA
polymorphism in Thailand.
Journal of Human Genetics
46
115-125.
Gonder MK, Mortensen HM, Reed FA, de Sousa A, Tishkoff SA (2006).
Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages.
Molecular Biology and Evolution
24
(3) 757-768.
Kayser M, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J Trent, Mark Stoneking (2008).
Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
82
(1) 194-198.
Kirch PV (1980).
Polynesian Prehistory:Cultural adaptation in Island Ecosystems.
American Scientist
68
(January/February) 39-48.
Laubenfels DJ (1968).
Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions.
Annals of the Association of American Geographers
58
(1) 42-50.
Ling Shun-Sheng (1970).
A Study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double and Deck Canoes of ancient China, the Pacific and the Indian Ocean
(Taipei:Nankang).
Merriwether
et al.,
(1994).
Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
.
Merriwether
et al.,
(No Date).
Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific. In:
Genomic Diversity.
Edited by Papilia SS, Deka R & Chakraborty R 159.
Page WJ (1988).
The Lakota Hypothesis:on the Origin of Melanesian People of the Fijian Islands.
West African Journal of Archaeology
18
31-72.
Pietrusewky M (1989).
A Lapita-associated skeleton from Natunuku Fiji.
Records of the Australian Museum
41
297-325.
Pietrusewsky (2005).
The Physical anthropology of the Pacific, East Asia: A multivariate craniometric analysis. In
The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics.
Edited by Sagart L, Blench R, Sanchez-Mazos A (RutledgeCurzon) 201-229.
Pugach I, Delfin F, Gunnarsdottir E, Kayser M, Stoneking M (2014).
Genome-wide data substantiate Holocene gene flow from India to Australia.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Available: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi10.1073/pnas.121927110

Indian
Journal of Fundamental and Applied Life Sciences ISSN: 2231-6345
(
Online)
An Open Access
,
Online International Journal Available at http://www
.
cibtech
.
org/jls
.
htm
2014 Vol
.
4
(3
) July-September
,
pp
.
694-704/Winters
Research Article
© Copyright 2014 | Centre for Info Bio Technology
(
CIBTech)
704
Reyes-Centeno H, Ghirotto S, Florent Détroit, Dominique Grimaud-Hervé, Guido Barbujani and Katerina Harvati (2014)
. Genomic and cranial phenotype data support multiple modern human dispersals from Africa and a southern route into Asia.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
published ahead of print April 21, 2014, doi:10.1073/pnas.1323666111
Tanaka M, Cabrera VM, González AM, Larruga JM, Takeyasu T, Fuku N, Guo LJ, Hirose R, Fujita Y, Kurata M, Shinoda K, Umetsu K, Yamada Y, Oshida Y, Sato Y, Hattori N, Mizuno Y, Arai Y, Hirose N, Ohta S, Ogawa O, Tanaka Y, Kawamori R, Shamoto-Nagai M, Maruyama W, Shimokata H, Suzuki R, Shimodaira H (2004).
Mitochondrial genome variation in Eastern Asia and the peopling of Japan.
Genome Research
14
1832-1850.
Tsunehiko H (2005).
Interpretation of craniofacial variations and diversification of East and Southeast Asia. In:
Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia.
Edited by Marc Oxenhan and Nancy Tayles (Cambridge) 91-111.
Weidenreich F.,
Bulletin of Natural History Society Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163
White JP & Allen J (1980).
Melanesian Prehistory: Some Recent Advances.
Science
207
728-734.
Winters C (2007).
Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa?
BioEssays
27
(5) 497-498.
Winters C (2008).
ARE DRAVIDIANS OF AFRICAN ORIGIN. Available: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...Winder-C/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C-Tt.pdf
Winters C (2008b).
Can parallel mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M Haplogroups.
International Journal of Human Genetics
13
(3) 93-96. Available: http://www.ijhg.com/article.asp?iss...e=13;issue=3;spage=93;epage=96;aulast=Winters
Winters C (2010).
Y-Chromosome evidence of an African origin of Dravidian agriculture.
International Journal of Genetics and Molecular Biology
2
(3) 030
–
033. Available: http://www.academicjournals.org/IJGMB/abstracts/abstracts/abstracts2010/Mar/Winters.htm
Winters C (2010b).
9bp and the Relationship Between African and Dravidian Speakers
. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences
2
(4) 229-231. Available: http://maxwellsci.com/print/crjbs/v2-229-231.pdf
Winters C (2013).
The Ancient Black Civilizations of Asia
(Create space).
Winters CA (1983).
Possible relationship between Manding and Japanese.
Papers in Japanese Linguistics
9
151-158.
Winters CA (1984).
Further thoughts on Japanese Dravidian connections.
Dravidian Linguistic Association News
5
(9) 1-4.
Winters CA (1985).
The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils.
Journal of Tamil Studies
27
(June) 65-92.
Winters CA (1986).
Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia.
India Past and Present
3
(2) 225- 241.
Wood
et al.,
(2005).
Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome.
European Journal of Human Genetics
13
867-876.
Yao YG, Kong QP, Bandelt HJ, Kivisild T, Zhang YP (2002).
Phylogeographic differentiation of mitochondrial DNA in Han chinese.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
70
635-651.

Say what you will about Clyde,but he's thorough and multidisciplined. Can you disconfirm any of his conclusions?

 

[Mr.Big Meat McGee]

You didn't quote scientists, you posted a website that references blog sites and youtube videos as evidence that push theories that have long been discredited by genuine academics and scholars who are actually qualified to speak on the fields in question, genetics, archaeology, anthropology, and linguistics.

Like I said earlier, there is no evidence for any significant migration from Africa into the Indian sub-continent within the neolithic era (within the last 10,000-12,000 years). The people who push this crap are well aware of this, that's why they try to fool gullible people like you into focusing on long discredited methods of determining identity and ethnicity ie; physical appearance -"these people have dark skin, they must be africoid" and hodge-podge language analysis - "these words sound the same so that much mean the languages must be related." Sorry, but that that's not how it works. This isn't the 1800's, nobody says "Africoid" anymore.

The earliest records of Ge'ez script dates to the early Christian era as it was the script used by the Ethiopian church, Devanagari script is derived from the Brahmi script, which dates to at least 300 b.c. as per the ashoka carvings. It may be older than that however, since the Buddhist canons which tell of events that occurred in 600 b.c. clearly speak of writing. Scholars today are split on whether Brahmi was inspired by Aramaic script or if it arose organically within India itself, as a descendant of the Indus Valley script.

Regarding genetics, here's a chart showing the genetic affinities of different Indian populations, north and south, across caste lines:

How much African do you see? Oh ok.

So Indians are basically Cacs and Asian mixed?

 

[MostReal]

That's not how it goes. You can't dismiss his findings so cavalierly when its been peer reviewed and published. Look at his sources:

REFERENCES
Balakrishnan R (2005).
African roots of the Dravidian-speaking Tribes: A case in Onomastics,
International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics
34
(1) 153-202.
Bellwood P (1979).
Man's Conquest of the Pacific
(Oxford, New York).
Bellwood P (1991).
The Austronesian Dispersal and the Origin of Languages.
Scientific American
88-93.
Benedict PK (1990).
Japanese/Austro-Tai, Ann Arbor:Karoma, 1990.
Bulbeck D (2008).
Australian Aboriginal craniometrics as construed through FORDISC, 2005. Available: http://arts.anu.edu.au/bullda/oz_craniometrics.html [Accessed on 4/2/2008].
Chang KC (1964).
Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China.
Current Anthropology
5
359-375.
Chang KC (1977).
The Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977).
Chang KC (1980).
Shang Civilization
(Yale University Press: New Haven).
Chang KC (1987).
Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press.)
Cordaux
et al.,
(2003).
Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India.
European Journal of Human Genetics
11
(2) 253-264.
Craib JL (1983).
Micronesian Prehistory An Archaeological Overview.
Science
219
919-927.
Fredlaender JS, Friedlaender FR, Hodgson JA, Stoltz M, Koki G, Horvat G, Zhadanov S, Schurr TG and Merriwether DA (2007).
Melanesian mtDNA complexity,
PLoS ONE
2
(2) 248.
Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S (2001).
Mitochondrial DNA
polymorphism in Thailand.
Journal of Human Genetics
46
115-125.
Gonder MK, Mortensen HM, Reed FA, de Sousa A, Tishkoff SA (2006).
Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages.
Molecular Biology and Evolution
24
(3) 757-768.
Kayser M, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J Trent, Mark Stoneking (2008).
Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
82
(1) 194-198.
Kirch PV (1980).
Polynesian Prehistory:Cultural adaptation in Island Ecosystems.
American Scientist
68
(January/February) 39-48.
Laubenfels DJ (1968).
Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions.
Annals of the Association of American Geographers
58
(1) 42-50.
Ling Shun-Sheng (1970).
A Study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double and Deck Canoes of ancient China, the Pacific and the Indian Ocean
(Taipei:Nankang).
Merriwether
et al.,
(1994).
Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
.
Merriwether
et al.,
(No Date).
Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific. In:
Genomic Diversity.
Edited by Papilia SS, Deka R & Chakraborty R 159.
Page WJ (1988).
The Lakota Hypothesis:on the Origin of Melanesian People of the Fijian Islands.
West African Journal of Archaeology
18
31-72.
Pietrusewky M (1989).
A Lapita-associated skeleton from Natunuku Fiji.
Records of the Australian Museum
41
297-325.
Pietrusewsky (2005).
The Physical anthropology of the Pacific, East Asia: A multivariate craniometric analysis. In
The peopling of East Asia Putting together Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics.
Edited by Sagart L, Blench R, Sanchez-Mazos A (RutledgeCurzon) 201-229.
Pugach I, Delfin F, Gunnarsdottir E, Kayser M, Stoneking M (2014).
Genome-wide data substantiate Holocene gene flow from India to Australia.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Available: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/doi10.1073/pnas.121927110

Indian
Journal of Fundamental and Applied Life Sciences ISSN: 2231-6345
(
Online)
An Open Access
,
Online International Journal Available at http://www
.
cibtech
.
org/jls
.
htm
2014 Vol
.
4
(3
) July-September
,
pp
.
694-704/Winters
Research Article
© Copyright 2014 | Centre for Info Bio Technology
(
CIBTech)
704
Reyes-Centeno H, Ghirotto S, Florent Détroit, Dominique Grimaud-Hervé, Guido Barbujani and Katerina Harvati (2014)
. Genomic and cranial phenotype data support multiple modern human dispersals from Africa and a southern route into Asia.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
published ahead of print April 21, 2014, doi:10.1073/pnas.1323666111
Tanaka M, Cabrera VM, González AM, Larruga JM, Takeyasu T, Fuku N, Guo LJ, Hirose R, Fujita Y, Kurata M, Shinoda K, Umetsu K, Yamada Y, Oshida Y, Sato Y, Hattori N, Mizuno Y, Arai Y, Hirose N, Ohta S, Ogawa O, Tanaka Y, Kawamori R, Shamoto-Nagai M, Maruyama W, Shimokata H, Suzuki R, Shimodaira H (2004).
Mitochondrial genome variation in Eastern Asia and the peopling of Japan.
Genome Research
14
1832-1850.
Tsunehiko H (2005).
Interpretation of craniofacial variations and diversification of East and Southeast Asia. In:
Bioarchaeology of Southeast Asia.
Edited by Marc Oxenhan and Nancy Tayles (Cambridge) 91-111.
Weidenreich F.,
Bulletin of Natural History Society Peiping 13, (1938-40): p. 163
White JP & Allen J (1980).
Melanesian Prehistory: Some Recent Advances.
Science
207
728-734.
Winters C (2007).
Did the Dravidian Speakers Originate in Africa?
BioEssays
27
(5) 497-498.
Winters C (2008).
ARE DRAVIDIANS OF AFRICAN ORIGIN. Available: http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...Winder-C/IJHG-08-4-325-08-362-Winder-C-Tt.pdf
Winters C (2008b).
Can parallel mutation and neutral genome selection explain Eastern African M1 consensus HVS-1 motifs in Indian M Haplogroups.
International Journal of Human Genetics
13
(3) 93-96. Available: http://www.ijhg.com/article.asp?iss...e=13;issue=3;spage=93;epage=96;aulast=Winters
Winters C (2010).
Y-Chromosome evidence of an African origin of Dravidian agriculture.
International Journal of Genetics and Molecular Biology
2
(3) 030
–
033. Available: http://www.academicjournals.org/IJGMB/abstracts/abstracts/abstracts2010/Mar/Winters.htm
Winters C (2010b).
9bp and the Relationship Between African and Dravidian Speakers
. Current Research Journal of Biological Sciences
2
(4) 229-231. Available: http://maxwellsci.com/print/crjbs/v2-229-231.pdf
Winters C (2013).
The Ancient Black Civilizations of Asia
(Create space).
Winters CA (1983).
Possible relationship between Manding and Japanese.
Papers in Japanese Linguistics
9
151-158.
Winters CA (1984).
Further thoughts on Japanese Dravidian connections.
Dravidian Linguistic Association News
5
(9) 1-4.
Winters CA (1985).
The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils.
Journal of Tamil Studies
27
(June) 65-92.
Winters CA (1986).
Dravidian Settlements in ancient Polynesia.
India Past and Present
3
(2) 225- 241.
Wood
et al.,
(2005).
Contrasting Patterns of Y chromosome.
European Journal of Human Genetics
13
867-876.
Yao YG, Kong QP, Bandelt HJ, Kivisild T, Zhang YP (2002).
Phylogeographic differentiation of mitochondrial DNA in Han chinese.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
70
635-651.

Say what you will about Clyde,but he's thorough and multidisciplined. Can you disconfirm any of his conclusions?

@GetInTheTruck told you, you were kinfolk

 

[GetInTheTruck]

That's not how it goes. You can't dismiss his findings so cavalierly when its been peer reviewed and published. Look at his sources:

REFERENCES
Balakrishnan R (2005).
African roots of the Dravidian-speaking Tribes: A case in Onomastics,
International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics
34
(1) 153-202.
Bellwood P (1979).
Man's Conquest of the Pacific
(Oxford, New York).
Bellwood P (1991).
The Austronesian Dispersal and the Origin of Languages.
Scientific American
88-93.
Benedict PK (1990).
Japanese/Austro-Tai, Ann Arbor:Karoma, 1990.
Bulbeck D (2008).
Australian Aboriginal craniometrics as construed through FORDISC, 2005. Available: http://arts.anu.edu.au/bullda/oz_craniometrics.html [Accessed on 4/2/2008].
Chang KC (1964).
Prehistoric and early historic culture horizons and traditions in South China.
Current Anthropology
5
359-375.
Chang KC (1977).
The Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press: New Haven, 1977).
Chang KC (1980).
Shang Civilization
(Yale University Press: New Haven).
Chang KC (1987).
Archaeology of Ancient China
(Yale University Press.)
Cordaux
et al.,
(2003).
Mitochodrial DNA analysis reveals diverse tribal histories of tribal populations from India.
European Journal of Human Genetics
11
(2) 253-264.
Craib JL (1983).
Micronesian Prehistory An Archaeological Overview.
Science
219
919-927.
Fredlaender JS, Friedlaender FR, Hodgson JA, Stoltz M, Koki G, Horvat G, Zhadanov S, Schurr TG and Merriwether DA (2007).
Melanesian mtDNA complexity,
PLoS ONE
2
(2) 248.
Fucharoen G, Fucharoen S, Horai S (2001).
Mitochondrial DNA
polymorphism in Thailand.
Journal of Human Genetics
46
115-125.
Gonder MK, Mortensen HM, Reed FA, de Sousa A, Tishkoff SA (2006).
Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages.
Molecular Biology and Evolution
24
(3) 757-768.
Kayser M, Oscar Lao, Kathrin Saar, Silke Brauer, Xingyu Wang, Peter Nürnberg, Ronald J Trent, Mark Stoneking (2008).
Genome-wide Analysis Indicates More Asian than Melanesian Ancestry of Polynesians.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
82
(1) 194-198.
Kirch PV (1980).
Polynesian Prehistory:Cultural adaptation in Island Ecosystems.
American Scientist
68
(January/February) 39-48.
Laubenfels DJ (1968).
Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions.
Annals of the Association of American Geographers
58
(1) 42-50.
Ling Shun-Sheng (1970).
A Study of the Raft, Outrigger, Double and Deck Canoes of ancient China, the Pacific and the Indian Ocean
(Taipei:Nankang).
Merriwether
et al.,
(1994).
Origins and dispersal in the mtDNA region V 9bp deletion and insertion in Nigeria and the Ivory Coast.
The American Journal of Human Genetics
.
Merriwether
et al.,
(No Date).
Mitochondrial DNA in the South Pacific. In:
Genomic Diversity.
Edited by Papilia SS, Deka R & Chakraborty R 159.
Page WJ (1988).
The Lakota Hypothesis:on the Origin of Melanesian People of the Fijian Islands.
West African Journal of Archaeology
18
31-72.
Pietrusewky M (1989).
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Say what you will about Clyde,but he's thorough and multidisciplined. Can you disconfirm any of his conclusions?

I dont have to refute anything because that's already been done by the proper authorities. The problem with you is that you're gullible. You see all these fancy looking references and you easily take the bait.

The truth is that Clyde Winters has only submitted his theories to open access journals that charge a fee to contributors, in other words, anybody can have their research appear in them at the right price. The closest he has gotten to appearing in a genuine academic journal is when an editor of bioessays decided to print one of his comments to another piece. This was the response:

"Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Mait Metspalu, Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild. 2007. “Reply to Winters” BioEssays 29(5): 499

“MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters
in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA
haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild
et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid
parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated
paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an
extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers
among many Indian populations relative to global populations
elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia."

Grand opening grand closing. Funny thing about this is that Toomas Kivisild is cited as one of Clyde Winters' references in your own post, which is probably why he felt the need to respond with the above to make clarify that his work was being misrepresented

Genetic research and discovery within the last 25 years has put to rest much of this Dravidian/African business. That's why you guys are still stuck on skin color and physical appearance.

 

[KravenMorehead™]

Good info.

 

[MostReal]

"Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Mait Metspalu, Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild. 2007. “Reply to Winters” BioEssays 29(5): 499

“MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters
in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA
haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild
et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid
parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated
paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an
extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers
among many Indian populations relative to global populations
elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia."

 

[GetInTheTruck]

So Indians are basically Cacs and Asian mixed?

The chart shows that all Indians are genetically South Asian, regardless of caste, tribe, or physical appearance.

 

[thekyuke]

I dont have to refute anything because that's already been done by the proper authorities. The problem with you is that you're gullible. You see all these fancy looking references and you easily take the bait.

The truth is that Clyde Winters has only submitted his theories to open access journals that charge a fee to contributors, in other words, anybody can have their research appear in them at the right price. The closest he has gotten to appearing in a genuine academic journal is when an editor of bioessays decided to print one of his comments to another piece. This was the response:

"Gyaneshwer Chaubey, Mait Metspalu, Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild. 2007. “Reply to Winters” BioEssays 29(5): 499

“MtDNA-based genetic arguments provided by Dr. Winters
in favor of gene flow from Africa to Dravidian-speaking Indians are, however, entirely erroneous. The author has been, unfortunately, confused by overlooking changes in mtDNA
haplogroup (hg) nomenclature. Namely hg, M1 in Kivisild
et al.(4) has been later changed to hg M3, in order to avoid
parallel nomenclatures.(5) Furthermore, a recent dedicated
paper on phylogeography of mtDNA hg M1(6) as well as an
extensive comparative mapping of autosomal genetic markers
among many Indian populations relative to global populations
elsewhere, including Africans,(7) do not provide any clues for a putative recent gene flow, from Africa, to Dravidian-speaking populations in South Asia."

Grand opening grand closing. Funny thing about this is that Toomas Kivisild is cited as one of Clyde Winters' references in your own post, which is probably why he felt the need to respond with the above to make clarify that his work was being misrepresented

Genetic research and discovery within the last 25 years has put to rest much of this Dravidian/African business. That's why you guys are still stuck on skin color and physical appearance.

If you insist I avoid Winters I will. The thing is he's mainly a secondary researcher who uses primary research to confirm his theories. Here is Cabrera:

"In Table 2, we see the defining control region mutations for African Dravidian and Oceanian haplotypes. The shared haplotypes correspond to the L3(M/Q) haplogroups. These haplotypes are predominately the pan-African haplotypes: 16129,16223,16189 and 16311.
Table 2: Definining control region mutations for African,Dravidian and Oceanian Haplotypes
Haplogroups HVS1 (add 16000) M 129 241 311 M1 129 189 249 311 M27a 223 048 077T 172 311 320 189 136 M28a 223 148 468 362 086 129 320 M29a 223 189 311
M29‟Q
129 241 Q1 223 148 265 343 D4 223 189 129 311 249 The M, N, and R macrohaplogroups are found throughout East and South and Southeast Asia, the Andaman Islands and Africa (Cabrera
et al.,
2004)."

I also saw smth about common African/Indian clusters though the latter are in what is referred to as the east Eurasian genepool. Am looking for it now.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

If you insist I avoid Winters I will. The thing is he's mainly a secondary researcher who uses primary research to confirm his theories. Here is Cabrera:

"In Table 2, we see the defining control region mutations for African Dravidian and Oceanian haplotypes. The shared haplotypes correspond to the L3(M/Q) haplogroups. These haplotypes are predominately the pan-African haplotypes: 16129,16223,16189 and 16311.
Table 2: Definining control region mutations for African,Dravidian and Oceanian Haplotypes
Haplogroups HVS1 (add 16000) M 129 241 311 M1 129 189 249 311 M27a 223 048 077T 172 311 320 189 136 M28a 223 148 468 362 086 129 320 M29a 223 189 311
M29‟Q
129 241 Q1 223 148 265 343 D4 223 189 129 311 249 The M, N, and R macrohaplogroups are found throughout East and South and Southeast Asia, the Andaman Islands and Africa (Cabrera
et al.,
2004)."

I also saw smth about common African/Indian clusters though the latter are in what is referred to as the east Eurasian genepool. Am looking for it now.

Actually what's clear is that he often misrepresents his sources in a manner that suits his theories which have long been discredited. I already gave you an example of that.

If you want to read some interesting discussions regarding this topic involving Clyde Winters himself, google "Clyde Winters, Dravidian, Egyptsearch.com"

 

[thekyuke]

Actually what's clear is that he often misrepresents his sources in a manner that suits his theories which have long been discredited. I already gave you an example of that.

If you want to read some interesting discussions regarding this topic involving Clyde Winters himself, google "Clyde Winters, Dravidian, Egyptsearch.com"

Forget Clyde for a minute. What about Cabrera above?

"In Table 2, we see the defining control region mutations for African Dravidian and Oceanian haplotypes. The shared haplotypes correspond to the L3(M/Q) haplogroups. These haplotypes are predominately the pan-African haplotypes: 16129,16223,16189 and 16311.
Table 2: Definining control region mutations for African,Dravidian and Oceanian Haplotypes
Haplogroups HVS1 (add 16000) M 129 241 311 M1 129 189 249 311 M27a 223 048 077T 172 311 320 189 136 M28a 223 148 468 362 086 129 320 M29a 223 189 311
M29‟Q
129 241 Q1 223 148 265 343 D4 223 189 129 311 249 The M, N, and R macrohaplogroups are found throughout East and South and Southeast Asia, the Andaman Islands and Africa (Cabrera
et al.,
2004)."
They're both basically saying the same things. Its unfair to accuse Clyde of misrepresentation:please provide the full exchange so we can all get the proper context. Also respond to Cabrera's findings above on common M,N and R macrohaplogroups.

 

[88m3]

oh it's one of these threads

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Forget Clyde for a minute. What about Cabrera above?

"In Table 2, we see the defining control region mutations for African Dravidian and Oceanian haplotypes. The shared haplotypes correspond to the L3(M/Q) haplogroups. These haplotypes are predominately the pan-African haplotypes: 16129,16223,16189 and 16311.
Table 2: Definining control region mutations for African,Dravidian and Oceanian Haplotypes
Haplogroups HVS1 (add 16000) M 129 241 311 M1 129 189 249 311 M27a 223 048 077T 172 311 320 189 136 M28a 223 148 468 362 086 129 320 M29a 223 189 311
M29‟Q
129 241 Q1 223 148 265 343 D4 223 189 129 311 249 The M, N, and R macrohaplogroups are found throughout East and South and Southeast Asia, the Andaman Islands and Africa (Cabrera
et al.,
2004)."
They're both basically saying the same things. Its unfair to accuse Clyde of misrepresentation:please provide the full exchange so we can all get the proper context. Also respond to Cabrera's findings above on common M,N and R macrohaplogroups.

It's kind of hard to forget about Clyde since he's the only one who is still advocating this theory. Commonality doesn't automatically translate into a direct relation:

Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the *initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans.*

Since the initial peopling of South and West Asia by anatomically modern humans, when this region may well have provided the initial settlers who colonized much of the rest of Eurasia, the *gene flow in and out of India of the maternally transmitted mtDNA has been surprisingly limited* - Kivisild.

Read through this discussion: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003430;p=1

Most of this stuff is addressed.