Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

[get these nets]

Aren't creole people Haitians anyway?

 

[The Odum of Ala Igbo]

I've seen those but I also like these below...

Time stamped for convenience

They had the call & response running side by side wit it



"Oh yeah"​

SIDENOTE:
There is also an Alan Lomax Mississippi delta recording I cant find of two black women on a porch "rapping" a church/blues/folk song.
(It was on YouTube but not anymore ...the video started with a guy who is a grave digger ended with a bunch of people in a juke joint toasting/signifying)

I was gonna post Stack O Lee or Stagger Lee

 

[Samori Toure]

Can’t believe you proved my comment with one picture

Actually his picture shows the practice of African Americans being sold down the river in the USA from the North to the South. The picture also shows some slaves being brought in from the Caribbean to work on plantations in the deep deep South. That is basically a one way trade. Your statement was about them being sold back and forth, which implies it being a two way trade. Any way it was pretty much just one way and they were being brought to the USA on cotton plantation which were springing up in the deep south and southwest.

What you might be thinking about is the Gullah-Geechee of North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia who ended up in the Caribbean after fighting in the Seminole Wars in North and Central Florida.

Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

 

[IllmaticDelta]

There's a poster who made a lengthy entry on this song. @IllmaticDelta

American Folk songs of black/afram origin

 

[TEH]

Actually his picture shows the practice of African Americans being sold down the river in the USA from the North to the South. The picture also shows some slaves being brought in from the Caribbean to work on plantations in the deep deep South. That is basically a one way trade. Your statement was about them being sold back and forth, which implies it being a two way trade. Any way it was pretty much just one way and they were being
brought to the USA on cotton plantation which were springing up in the deep south and southwest.

Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

Actually if you look up the various triangular
salve trades goods and slaves were shipped into the Caribbean and also some slaves left America for the Caribbean

Remember emancipation came much earlier in the Caribbean

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Aren't creole people Haitians anyway?

New Orleans Creoles were there before emmigrants from haiti came into/mixed into the native population. A repost from an older thread

There is a connection but a way overstated one as I mentioned before.


see:

NS: France basically abandoned the colony after 1731, right?

GMH: Well, “abandoned” in the sense that most of the French colonists left, and very few came, so that there was a majority of Africans in all of the French settlements in colonial Louisiana, so that French Louisiana was heavily African. And it remained heavily African during the Spanish period, although there were more European-type colonizers who were brought in during the Spanish period, but there was still a slight majority of Africans and their descendants – a slight majority of slaves, in fact. There were also some Native American slaves.

NS: One of the major points I get from reading Africans in Colonial Louisiana was that there was an Afro-Louisianan identity firmly established early on.

GMH: Yes, it was established through language and culture. And the language, of course, was Louisiana Creole, which arose in the first generation. And that’s normal; Creole languages do that, they are established very early, and then newcomers have to pretty much learn that language, although of course, all languages evolve. But Louisiana Creole had been established for a long time before there was any substantial immigration from Haiti. So that Haitian Kreyol and Louisiana Creole are fairly distinct languages. And you cannot attribute Louisiana Creole to Haitian Kreyol, which is often done.

NS: If an Afro-Louisianan culture was well-established from an early date, that also would necessarily have included music.

GMH: Yes. Now, unfortunately, at least from what I’ve seen, I’ve seen much less about music than what we would want. Just a few descriptions of dances and instruments and stuff like that in the documents, but not a lot.

.
.

NS: There’s a certain amount of lore that suggests that from that point we start to see – though there was already, as you pointed out, a Dahomeyan population in Louisiana. At that point we start to see voodoo appear in New Orleans culture. And I notice that in Louisiana they have “voodoo queens,” something unknown in Haiti…

GMH: Exactly. It’s distinctive. And Marie Laveau – you know, there’s this tendency to have everybody be Haitian. And they weren’t! Including Marie Laveau. She had no Haitian ancestors. She was Louisiana Creole. Charles Lalond, who was the leader of the 1811 slave revolt on the German Coast – Charles Gayarré passed the misinformation that he was a free man of color from Haiti. He was no such thing. He was a mulatto Creole slave of Louisiana. And I have not found any Haitians involved in any revolt or conspiracy against slavery in Louisiana. And I’ve looked through lots and lots of documents. And you can look yourself in my database. None of them were Haitians.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall

Most Black people from Louisiana were taken there during the Slave trade from other Southern States. They were sold down the Mississippi River from places like North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee to plantations in Louisiana and Mississippi. Which is where we get the "phrase sold down the river" from.

The conditions in Mississippi and Louisiana were much harsher and the slave owners were much poorer and much more ignorant than in the other States; that the slaves were taken from which is why the slaves dreaded being sold down river and going into those States.

Btw, not all the Black people in New Orleans were from Haiti. France lay claim to New Orleans since it's founding in 1718. Most of the slaves belonged to the French that had plantations in and around New Orleans; rather than Haitians that were bought there by other French slave owners during the Haitian Revolution.

read...

GMH: For the U.S., but it was earlier in Louisiana. Because they were afraid, you know. I think there was a lot of fear of new Africans. The greatest fear of all was for Caribbeans. But new Africans were also feared.

NS: Then there was also a commercial motive, given the power of Virginia, to sell Americanized slaves from Virginia and Maryland down South.

GMH: Oh, that became tremendous business in the 19 th century.

NS: The slave-breeding industry…

GMH: Yes. That’s something else that needs to be databased, because there are shipping records giving great detail about slaves who were shipped from the east coast ports, all the way through 1860. Especially into New Orleans, but you can track them, you know, where they went from there, a few other ports, these were customs-house records of the United States, and they’re on microfilm. And so somebody needs to database that too.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall

 

[get these nets]

NO and SC reminds me of the Caribbean in some ways ... I’m sure slaves were shipped back and forth back then ...

That's for a few reasons
New Orleans is a port city....as are several places in South Car.

After the slave trade was banned across the Atlantic......ships continued to smuggle enslaved Africans into some port cities and outlying islands around SC and Georgia. Those places were getting new Africans coming in and adding to the cultural mix well after most places in America were no longer getting that. Triangular slave trade was still in effect.....so they might have been dropped off in the Caribbean first then brought here. Gullah Area of the Carolinas has STRONG African cultural mix over there to this day because of that.

New Orleans.....climate, plants, food is very similiar to the islands and you figure because of it's location...lot of travel and cultural exchange/overlap with former Spanish,English and French colonies.

 

[Don Diego]

1939 Calypso from a Trinidadian Born Artist

Roaring Lion - Cairi Calypso: 1930 - 1939 | Light In The Attic Records

 

[Samori Toure]

Actually if you look up the various triangular
salve trades goods and slaves were shipped into the Caribbean and also some slaves left America for the Caribbean

Remember emancipation came much earlier in the Caribbean

There seems to be quite a bit of revisionism happening regarding slavery, especially in the USA. Slaves were brought from the Caribbean into the USA, which increased after the USA banned the direct importation of slaves directly from the Continent of Africa into the USA in 1807. There were never that many slaves going from the USA to the Caribbean, because there were never that many slaves in the USA to begin with in the first place; which is why slaves had to be imported from the Caribbean into the USA after the Louisiana Purchase was complete. That purchase happened near the same time that Eli Whitney was credited with the invention of the Cotton Gin. So the planters in the Deep South needed all the slaves that they could get on the newly acquired lands in the deep south were they planting cotton on the new plantations.

It is interesting that you note that emancipation came to the Caribbean earlier, because the revolt leading to emancipation in Haiti is actually what made more slave owners in Haiti take more of their slaves to the USA.

 

[Indiglow Meta (R$G)]

Aren't creole people Haitians anyway?

We're not exactly identical to Haitians.

 

[im_sleep]

I've seen those but I also like these below...

Time stamped for convenience

They had the call & response running side by side wit it



"Oh yeah"​

SIDENOTE:
There is also an Alan Lomax Mississippi delta recording I cant find of two black women on a porch "rapping" a church/blues/folk song.
(It was on YouTube but not anymore ...the video started with a guy who is a grave digger ended with a bunch of people in a juke joint toasting/signifying)

I Ain't Lying | Folkstreams

The women start at 09:25

The toasting at the juke joint starts at 18:30

This is the source website for the old YouTube channel, they have ALOT more stuff on here. This stuff is a goldmine for people connecting the dots on AA culture.

 

[Cadillac]

5 star thread

 

[get these nets]

HIP HOP

Listen, fellas....if people want to debate for the sake of debating that's one thing.

Because of where hip hop originated, there's only one logical conclusion that can be reached about it's origin. I would challenge anybody to disagree. Let's examine NYC area from 1920 to roughly 1970
Great Migration of Blacks to the North really began a bit after WW1 started...in mid 19teens
Immigration Act of 1924 closed the lid on non Western European immigration into the country.
The Black and Brown people who were exceptions were Puerto Ricans, who are citizens of US, and people from English speaking Caribbean, who were still British subjects (and qualified for immigration as their countries were part of the UK)

From the early 1920s on, you had AAs from all over the South continuously moving to NYC and bringing their music, church traditions, styles of dance. You had Cariibean people from English speaking islands doing the same. Puerto Ricans, with a strong African cultural presence in their culture, did the same thing. ThEse three groups blended cultures with the AAs whose families were already in NY before any of them came up here. All four groups, living in NYC around each other for 4-5 decades....with influences from other regional AA cultures , mainsteam AA music, and general American pop culture.

Here is an important distinction. America became powerful and culturally inlfuential across the world at that time. Hollywood films played across the world, and American music was played all over the planet....jazz,blues, rock roll,soul,etc. These American music genres were played in the Caribbean and Puerto Rico and had influence on the music that aleady existed there.
I think NYC was one of the only parts of the country where you could say that the reverse was happening. That AAs were regularly being exposed to and being inlfuenced by Caribbean and Puerto Rican music

I believe that this is why the hip hop culture emerged where it did.....not in the Caribbean, not in P.R.., not in the American South, not in another Northern urban area....but in New York City. A perfect storm. It's a stew, the base of the stew is AA, the stove where it's cooked is in America, the ingredients include northern AA , southern AA, Caribbean and Puerto Rican elements.

PERIOD

 

[Biscayne]

Same here. 1st time I heard the song was the Dixie Cups version, and and since it sounded more "African" I always thought it was an African tune until I did my research a couple years ago and discovered the original Sugar Boy version. Down in NOLA, there's so much mixture between AA/Haitian/Native Americans that the etymology of the words has too many theories. Could be native words, kreyol words, african dialect etc. All I know is that those Mardi Gars Indian battles and the music inspired from them are fire.

 

[Biscayne]

Nah, African Americans in New Orleans predate the Haitians who came into New Orleans after the revolution.

To say otherwise would be to say something like..
"Aren't Haitian people African Americans anyway?"

...all because small groups of African Americans came to Haiti after the revolution.

African American emigration to Haiti

In 1824, the New York Colonization Society received a commitment from Haitian President Jean-Pierre Boyer to pay the passage of U.S. emigrants. Boyer also promised to support them for their first four months and to grant them land. The same year, African-American leaders, including wealthy Philadelphia businessman James Fortenand Bishop Richard Allen, formed the Haytian Emigration Society of Coloured People. They arranged for the transportation of several hundred people, not only to Haiti but also to Santo Domingo, the Spanish-speaking western part of the island of Hispaniola that had been conquered by Haiti in 1822.

- Report from Hayti from African Repository and Colonial Journal, Vol. 5 (April 1829)
- Marriage License and Naturalization Documents of American Migrants to Haiti from Williamson Papers
- A Merging of Two Cultures: The Afro-Hispanic Immigrants of Samana, Dominican Republic from Afro-Hispanic Review, vol. 8, nos. 1 & 2 (January and May 1989) by E. Valerie Smith



"Our brethren of Hayti, who stand in the vanguard of the race, have already made a name, and a fame for us, that is as imperishable as the world's history. . . .It becomes then an important question for the negro race in America . . .to contribute to the continued advancement of this negro nationality of the New World until its glory and renown shall overspread the whole earth, and redeem and regenerate by its influence in the future, the benighted Fatherland of the race in Africa."

- Thoughts on Hayti from The Anglo-African Magazine, vol.1, no.10 (October 1859) and vol.1, no.11 (November 1859) by Holly, Theodore




Many Americans, black and white, were opposed to Haitian immigration. Their attacks were not as strong as those against Liberia, mainly because it was a movement initiated, for the most part, by African Americans. In fact, the 1854 National Emigration Convention actually endorsed Haitian immigration. But the opponents of Haiti were numerous. Frederick Douglass, who was opposed to emigration but had finally encouraged the Haitian movement, later abandoned the cause.

Widespread migration to Haiti never materialized. Estimates of the number of African Americans who made the trip range from eight thousand to thirteen thousand, but most returned to the United States. Unlike the situation in Liberia, the island's fairly large but mostly transient African-American community left no lasting evidence of its presence.

- AAME : image



That said some people play it up for various reasons...

• Because it's actually true that someone in there family was a Haitian emigrant
• Because they think it adds some kind of legitimacy to [insert cultural activity here]
• etc etc

Basically there where African Americans already there in New Orleans and some Haitians came with the french who were kicked off the island. Some of those AA & Haitians mixed, some didn't. It's called "creole" to denote a language, cultural, and/or genetic mix in general ....in specific to new Orleans it's typically referring to

• genetic and by extension cultural mix with french speaking cacs

as opposed to

• genetic and by extension cultural mix with English speaking cacs

Nothing about the phenomena is particularly stand out in AA history just the group of cacs mixed with. Some black folks think it makes them special negros because they are mixed with french cacs as opposed to anglo cacs but that's few and far between so