Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

IllmaticDelta

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If the numbers are true about the exodus of people from St. Domingue, then how can you say the impact is
over rated? If the number of Free Blacks DOUBLED? If Saint Domingue was the CENTER of the french colonial empire and the RICHEST slave colony in the Americas, you'd have to figure that it was the cultural and artistic center as well. How could those gens de couleur not affect the culture in the new place?


on a musical level in new orleans of that time period, jazz, ragtime, blues and gospel all came out of anglo-african community not the franco-african one, something acknowledged even by the creole musicians themselves

(For comparison, you're saying that a mass of New Yorkers can flood a town of people that they have cultural similarities to..bringing in the same number of people who are already there and not leave a HUGE impact on the culture that already exists there?)


I'm familiar with Bolden and you mentioned him earlier in the thread. I said that W.C. Handy is the man most closely associated with the Blues and that Jelly Roll Morton is one of the men most closely associated with Jazz. These statements were true yesterday and will be true tomorrow.
I'm wondering why there is reluctance to accept the facts? That African diasporic cultures had influence on others. In the grand scheme of things, it was minimal influence on the Blues or Jazz , but It's puzzling to me why people are not going to acknowledge that it was there?
I am legit puzzled.

as far as this spanish tinge goes, it wasn't there. When jazz guys wanted to do a true latin tune, it was obvious -->The Peanut Vendor - Wikipedia



not this

[/quote]
 

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Domestic slave trade


New Orleans should acknowledge its lead role in the slave trade: Erin M. Greenwald and Joshua D. Rothman


Now, who's impact do you think was bigger.?
:mjlol:

And those are just the slaves alone, not including the whites and free blacks who emigrated from the "old" US. Furthermore that was only those that arrived by sea at the port of New Orleans, not including those who arrived by land into louisiana.

dst.jpg


Just from 1804-1820 the slave population in Louisiana would boom (from about 25,000 to nearly 70,000 in 1820), "largely from the domestic or inter-state slave trade".

New Orleans has a many times greater historical connection with Richmond VA alone than with the entire caribbean combined, especially as it concerns African-Americans.

Richmond Virgina & New Orleans Louisiana Connection Two Main Domestic Slave Trade Ports

97a17c4b-bc49-450f-8505-88812b7512db.jpeg



Domestic slave trade - Wikipedia
Morton said "Spanish tingue" on tape and then proceeded to play a song of Spanish/Cuban derivation to demonstrate to Lomax what he meant.

This is a good question that you pose though.


I think I read earlier in the thread that you were of Creole heritage. Forgive me if I'm confusing you with somebody else.

If you are of that heritage, and aware of New Orleans Creole history, you already know the difference between the article I posted and the information that you posted. The person being discussed, Morton was of Creole descent. From everything that I've read and seen, Creoles in N.O. area had a very insular culture..apart from whites, Blacks and the native English speakers of that area. The article I posted cited that French speakers in the region lobbied for the refugees from St. Domingue to come in to boost their numbers.....in fear of losing political and cultural clout to the english speaking Americans who would come into the area.
In terms of numbers....I'm sure the people coming in from previous American territory would impact the culture of the city/region.Creole heritage/culture, being insular would remain in tact. Over 200 years later French culture and Creole culture of New Orleans hasn't gone away.
As far as the Africans, if we look at what would have been happening in Congo Square.....

certainly all the enslaved Africans would be playing music and dancing. The educated guess says that the ones who were from Latin slave colonies (Spain/ France) where the drum was NOT banned, would have different musical traditions than the ones from some other American states, where there was a slave code ban on the drum. Those Africans wouldhave influenced each other.

It would all blend to form the unique culture of New Orleans and southern Louisiana.
 

IllmaticDelta

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Morton said "Spanish tingue" on tape and then proceeded to play a song of Spanish/Cuban derivation to demonstrate to Lomax what he meant.

This is a good question that you pose though.


I think I read earlier in the thread that you were of Creole heritage. Forgive me if I'm confusing you with somebody else.

If you are of that heritage, and aware of New Orleans Creole history, you already know the difference between the article I posted and the information that you posted. The person being discussed, Morton was of Creole descent. From everything that I've read and seen, Creoles in N.O. area had a very insular culture..apart from whites, Blacks and the native English speakers of that area. The article I posted cited that French speakers in the region lobbied for the refugees from St. Domingue to come in to boost their numbers.....in fear of losing political and cultural clout to the english speaking Americans who would come into the area.
In terms of numbers....I'm sure the people coming in from previous American territory would impact the culture of the city/region.Creole heritage/culture, being insular would remain in tact. Over 200 years later French culture and Creole culture of New Orleans hasn't gone away.
As far as the Africans, if we look at what would have been happening in Congo Square.....

certainly all the enslaved Africans would be playing music and dancing. The educated guess says that the ones who were from Latin slave colonies (Spain/ France) where the drum was NOT banned, would have different musical traditions than the ones from some other American states, where there was a slave code ban on the drum. Those Africans wouldhave influenced each other.

It would all blend to form the unique culture of New Orleans and southern Louisiana.


Congo square had nothing to do with jazz.


KGJ3Gc9.png
 

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Congo square had nothing to do with jazz.


KGJ3Gc9.png
My reply was about which group of newly arrived people would have a greater cultural impact on New Orleans.
I think it would be hard to defend your stance that Congo Square had "nothing to do with jazz" though.


Only place in America at the time where Africans were allowed to gather en masse and play music and you're saying it had NOTHING to do with what developed later? How does that add up
I think it set the stage for all the original music + the musical mashups and hybrids that would come out of that area in the years and decades to follow.
Congo Square - Know Louisiana

Congo Square is a public plot of land located in New Orleans on North Rampart Street between St. Ann and St. Peter Streets. In the nineteenth century, it served as a gathering place for Africans, most of them enslaved, where traditional music, dance, and cuisine of the mother continent could be openly enjoyed. Unique in the antebellum South, Congo Square’s cultural milieu has led many scholars to believe it was the very ground that ultimately gave birth to New Orleans jazz. At present, it is situated in the southwest corner of the Louis Armstrong Park located in the Tremé neighborhood, the oldest African American neighborhood in New Orleans. Today’s Congo Square encompasses 2.35 acres, approximately one-half the measurement that existed during the nineteenth century, when its most celebrated events took place.

This public space holds a long and diverse history under French, Spanish, and American rule that includes recreational, religious, military, cultural, and political events involving diverse groups of people. However, it was the gatherings of enslaved Africans on Sunday afternoons and the influence of their traditional practices on popular culture that made Congo Square known around the world. This location hosted public performances of African and African-based music, song, and dance over a longer period of time and at later dates than any other public location in North America.

A Place of Performance

The influence of those African cultural practices (rhythmic cells, songs, music, dances, religious belief systems, marketing, and cuisine) on the culture of New Orleans is significant. The rhythms and variations played in Congo Square are found at the core of early New Orleans jazz compositions and became an integral part of indigenous New Orleans music. They are still heard in second line and parade beats, the music and songs of Mardi Gras Indians, and the music of brass bands that play for jazz funerals and black social aid and pleasure club parades.

While the Africans who gathered at Congo Square influenced the indigenous culture of New Orleans, the city’s culture and laws under the various administrations, in turn, shaped Congo Square’s legacy. In 1724, six years after the founding of the French-ruled and Catholic-based city of New Orleans, Louisiana officials adopted the Code Noir, or Black Code, a series of laws that, among other things, established Sundays as nonwork days for everyone in the colony, including enslaved Africans.

No law, however, granted enslaved people the right to congregate, and the privilege for them to do so was constantly under threat. Any effort or rumor of an effort to revolt and gain real freedom jeopardized their ability to come together. Yet, from the earliest days of the colony, under different laws and conditions, Africans gathered at every opportunity. They congregated discontinuously at various locations in the city—along levees, in backyards, on plantations, in remote areas, and in other public squares on Sunday afternoons, until 1817. That year a city ordinance restricted all assemblies of the enslaved for the purposes of dancing and merriment to one location appointed by the mayor. The designated place was Congo Square.

Those who gathered at Congo Square reflected the population of enslaved Africans brought to Louisiana. Under French rule, two-thirds of them originated in the Senegambian region, and others were from the Bight of Benin and the Kongo-Angola region. Under Spanish rule, Africans were brought from the previous locations, with the largest number originating from the Kongo-Angola region, as well as from the Bight of Biafra, Sierra Leone, the Windward Coast, the Gold Coast, and Mozambique. Under American rule, the majority of enslaved Africans brought to Louisiana and the largest number that populated New Orleans were of Kongo-Angola heritage.

Sunday Afternoon Rituals

On Sunday afternoons, gatherers arrived at Congo Square from different parts of the city and from different social and labor categories. There were field hands, domestic workers, those whose owners hired out their labor, and free people of color. Some had been brought to Louisiana by way of the West Indies—particularly Haiti and Cuba, other slaveholding nations—particularly under American rule, and some had been brought directly from their homeland in Africa.

Initially at the gatherings, and continuing in degrees over time, Africans spoke and sang in their native languages, practiced their religious beliefs, danced in traditional forms, and played African-derived rhythmic patterns on instruments modeled after African prototypes. The music, songs, and dances as well as performance styles in Congo Square paralleled those found in the parts of Africa and the West Indies, where many of the gatherers had resided before landing in New Orleans.

Men, women, and children congregated by the hundreds—some reports say thousands—and formed circles. Inside each circle were dancers and musicians, and those who encircled them clapped, sang, shook gourd rattles, responded to the calls of song leaders, added ululations, and replaced fatigued dancers. The gatherers carried their spirituality with them and honored traditional religious beliefs that informed the New World religion known as Voudou, which many of them practiced. Some of the principal leaders ornamented their garments with the tails of small wild animals and used animal skin as containment for herbs and objects that provided healing and good fortune. An early observer noted that those with the most ornamentation and who appeared to be the most menacing attracted the largest circle of company.

Musicians played drums of different styles and sizes made from empty barrels and carved-out logs. They played a variety of percussion as well as melodic instruments including the kalimba, banza, panpipes, gourd rattles, balaphons, animal jawbones, and wooden horns. These and other instruments along with designated songs accompanied popular dances including the Calinda, Bamboula, Congo (Chica), Juba, and Carabine.

Over time, as English-speaking enslaved Africans arrived from other slaveholding areas, the gatherers increasingly added European-based musical instruments, songs, and dances. Those instruments included the Jew’s harp, triangle, violin (fiddle), and tambourine. They danced to “Old Virginia Never Tire” and sang “Hey Jim Along” and “Get Along Home You Yallow Gals.” Yet alongside these additions, gatherers continued to perpetuate and impose many of their traditional practices. The resultant blending of styles and techniques led to the evolution of new styles, indigenous styles, African American styles.

An integral part of the gatherings was the economic exchange, which had enslaved buyers and sellers at its center. The opportunity for enslaved people to earn money on Sundays, their day of rest, enabled them to patronize the market women and other vendors, who sold goods that they had made, gathered, cultivated, and hunted. Popular items included pecan pies, pralines, roasted peanuts, molasses candy, and calas (rice cakes). Beverages included coffee, lemonade, and la bierre du pays, also called ginger beer.

Known by Many Names

Numerous names, official as well as unofficial, identified this location over the years: Place Publique, Place des Nègres, Place Congo, Circus Park, Circus Square, Circus Place, Congo Park, Congo Plains, Place d’ Armes, and Beauregard Square. Names that travelers used when writing about the location include Congo ground, Congo Green, the green expanse, and the commons. However, the name “Congo Square” emerged as the most popular one and appeared on maps of New Orleans during the 1880s, although no city ordinance had made it official. Beauregard Square became the official name in 1893, when a city ordinance bestowed the name in honor of Confederate Gen. P. G. T. Beauregard. The popular name “Congo Square” regained prominence and wide usage beginning in the 1970s with the development of the Louis Armstrong Park complex within which Congo Square is located. In 2011 the New Orleans City Council unanimously passed an ordinance that officially named this location Congo Square.

Other events that occurred at this site during the antebellum years include ball games, horse shows, bullfights, cockfights, foot races, circuses, carriage shows, fireworks displays, military drills, public executions, and the sale of enslaved people. In 1864 more than twenty thousand people gathered in Congo Square to celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation; in 1865 New Orleanians gathered there to commemorate President Lincoln after his assassination.

In the twenty-first century, Congo Square continues to serve as a meeting place for New Orleanians—particularly those of African heritage. Sunday drum circles, family gatherings, weddings, political demonstrations, music festivals, prayer vigils, and gospel performances extend Congo Square’s legacy as a venue of culture, recreation, spirituality, and politics. The first jazz festival was held there in the 1940s. The first New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival took place there in 1970, and the first Congo Square New World Rhythms Festival was held there in 2007.

The National Register of Historic Places listed Congo Square in 1993, and the Congo Square Preservation Society (previously the Congo Square Foundation) placed a historical marker at the site in 1997.
 

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Congo square had nothing to do with jazz.


KGJ3Gc9.png
They have argued .....but I would like to see more of this evidence of this.

I agree that Congo squares doesn’t have a direct influence on Jazz, but to say what took place there was entirely African American rather than African seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

Congo square was outlawed in 1844. With New Orleans being a major slave port , I think using the term African American to describe the “black “ people there is inaccurate. They were essentially straight off the boat , or only one generation removed at the most. I think they what culture they were allowed to express was definitely more African.
 

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They have argued .....but I would like to see more of this evidence of this.

I agree that Congo squares doesn’t have a direct influence on Jazz, but to say what took place there was entirely African American rather than African seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

Congo square was outlawed in 1844. With New Orleans being a major slave port , I think using the term African American to describe the “black “ people there is inaccurate. They were essentially straight off the boat , or only one generation removed at the most. I think they what culture they were allowed to express was definitely more African.
If Congo square was banned in 1844 then wouldn't it be more AA influenced since before then there have been thousands of enslaved blacks from other southern regions imported to new Orleans especially after the louisiana purchase which happened in 1803? Though the city is unique within itself New Orleans black culture is way more black Anglo/Protestant influenced than black Catholic/francophone influenced outside of voodoo(which is also significantly influenced by Protestant Aframs by way of hoodoo.)
 

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Domestic slave trade


New Orleans should acknowledge its lead role in the slave trade: Erin M. Greenwald and Joshua D. Rothman


Now, who's impact do you think was bigger.?
:mjlol:

And those are just the slaves alone, not including the whites and free blacks who emigrated from the "old" US. Furthermore that was only those that arrived by sea at the port of New Orleans, not including those who arrived by land into louisiana.

dst.jpg


Just from 1804-1820 the slave population in Louisiana would boom (from about 25,000 to nearly 70,000 in 1820), "largely from the domestic or inter-state slave trade".

New Orleans has a many times greater historical connection with Richmond VA alone than with the entire caribbean combined, especially as it concerns African-Americans.

Richmond Virgina & New Orleans Louisiana Connection Two Main Domestic Slave Trade Ports

97a17c4b-bc49-450f-8505-88812b7512db.jpeg



Domestic slave trade - Wikipedia
Yeah this is what I mean when I say that the average black new Orleanian is black Anglo/Protestant influenced by the enslaved black from states like VA SC etc. Even the redbones ethnic group who I believe are mixed race of louisiana come from south Carolina.
In Louisiana, the Redbone cultural group consists mainly of the families of migrants to the state following the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.[1] These individuals may have ancestral ties to the Melungeons. The term 'Redbone' became disfavored as it was a pejorative nickname applied by others;[citation needed]however, in the past 30 years, the term has begun to be used as the preferred description for some creole groups, including the Louisiana Redbones
Most families ancestral to the Louisiana Redbones came from South Carolina (where they were at times classified in some census records as "other free persons"),[1] although some families came from other Southeastern states.
 

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If Congo square was banned in 1844 then wouldn't it be more AA influenced since before then there have been thousands of enslaved blacks from other southern regions imported to new Orleans especially after the louisiana purchase which happened in 1803? Though the city is unique within itself New Orleans black culture is way more black Anglo/Protestant influenced than black Catholic/francophone influenced outside of voodoo(which is also significantly influenced by Protestant Aframs by way of hoodoo.)
I disagree.

Congo square was banned because the predominant white culture in the city began to shift from French and Spanish control to a more Conservative Anglo control.


As far as the redbone thing is concerned, I know of no family who is considered Creole in New Orleans who traces their roots to South Carolina.

For a fact many of them trace their lineage to relationship between a French or Spanish master and mulatto woman.

I’m not disputing the fact that there were creole peoples of mixed heritage in South Carolina or anywhere else in the country, but I think it’s false to say that’s how the creole people in New Orleans got there.

Fortunately slave bought and sold records were kept and maintained in Orleans parish. Going back to 1804 you can search a database and see transactions of slaves bought and sold in Louisiana

Also I find it strange the cultural practices alive and strong in New Orleans aren’t found in other parts of the country, for that matter Louisiana if it’s s predominant black Anglo/Protestant culture. You’re dismissing the catholic influences when New Orleans has black catholic dioceses and a strong black catholic population. We literally take off a week for Marci Gras and meals are prepared to coincide with the observation of lent.

The reason Mardi Gras is a big deal here is because it’s a predominant catholic culture



Oldest parish created by African-Americans celebrates 175 years




Afro-Louisiana History and Genealogy
 

IllmaticDelta

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My reply was about which group of newly arrived people would have a greater cultural impact on New Orleans.
I think it would be hard to defend your stance that Congo Square had "nothing to do with jazz" though.


Only place in America at the time where Africans were allowed to gather en masse and play music and you're saying it had NOTHING to do with what developed later? How does that add up
I think it set the stage for all the original music + the musical mashups and hybrids that would come out of that area in the years and decades to follow.
Congo Square - Know Louisiana

Congo Square is a public plot of land located in New Orleans on North Rampart Street between St. Ann and St. Peter Streets. In the nineteenth century, it served as a gathering place for Africans, most of them enslaved, where traditional music, dance, and cuisine of the mother continent could be openly enjoyed. Unique in the antebellum South, Congo Square’s cultural milieu has led many scholars to believe it was the very ground that ultimately gave birth to New Orleans jazz. At present, it is situated in the southwest corner of the Louis Armstrong Park located in the Tremé neighborhood, the oldest African American neighborhood in New Orleans. Today’s Congo Square encompasses 2.35 acres, approximately one-half the measurement that existed during the nineteenth century, when its most celebrated events took place.

This public space holds a long and diverse history under French, Spanish, and American rule that includes recreational, religious, military, cultural, and political events involving diverse groups of people. However, it was the gatherings of enslaved Africans on Sunday afternoons and the influence of their traditional practices on popular culture that made Congo Square known around the world. This location hosted public performances of African and African-based music, song, and dance over a longer period of time and at later dates than any other public location in North America.

A Place of Performance

The influence of those African cultural practices (rhythmic cells, songs, music, dances, religious belief systems, marketing, and cuisine) on the culture of New Orleans is significant. The rhythms and variations played in Congo Square are found at the core of early New Orleans jazz compositions and became an integral part of indigenous New Orleans music. They are still heard in second line and parade beats, the music and songs of Mardi Gras Indians, and the music of brass bands that play for jazz funerals and black social aid and pleasure club parades.

While the Africans who gathered at Congo Square influenced the indigenous culture of New Orleans, the city’s culture and laws under the various administrations, in turn, shaped Congo Square’s legacy. In 1724, six years after the founding of the French-ruled and Catholic-based city of New Orleans, Louisiana officials adopted the Code Noir, or Black Code, a series of laws that, among other things, established Sundays as nonwork days for everyone in the colony, including enslaved Africans.

No law, however, granted enslaved people the right to congregate, and the privilege for them to do so was constantly under threat. Any effort or rumor of an effort to revolt and gain real freedom jeopardized their ability to come together. Yet, from the earliest days of the colony, under different laws and conditions, Africans gathered at every opportunity. They congregated discontinuously at various locations in the city—along levees, in backyards, on plantations, in remote areas, and in other public squares on Sunday afternoons, until 1817. That year a city ordinance restricted all assemblies of the enslaved for the purposes of dancing and merriment to one location appointed by the mayor. The designated place was Congo Square.

Those who gathered at Congo Square reflected the population of enslaved Africans brought to Louisiana. Under French rule, two-thirds of them originated in the Senegambian region, and others were from the Bight of Benin and the Kongo-Angola region. Under Spanish rule, Africans were brought from the previous locations, with the largest number originating from the Kongo-Angola region, as well as from the Bight of Biafra, Sierra Leone, the Windward Coast, the Gold Coast, and Mozambique. Under American rule, the majority of enslaved Africans brought to Louisiana and the largest number that populated New Orleans were of Kongo-Angola heritage.

Sunday Afternoon Rituals

On Sunday afternoons, gatherers arrived at Congo Square from different parts of the city and from different social and labor categories. There were field hands, domestic workers, those whose owners hired out their labor, and free people of color. Some had been brought to Louisiana by way of the West Indies—particularly Haiti and Cuba, other slaveholding nations—particularly under American rule, and some had been brought directly from their homeland in Africa.

Initially at the gatherings, and continuing in degrees over time, Africans spoke and sang in their native languages, practiced their religious beliefs, danced in traditional forms, and played African-derived rhythmic patterns on instruments modeled after African prototypes. The music, songs, and dances as well as performance styles in Congo Square paralleled those found in the parts of Africa and the West Indies, where many of the gatherers had resided before landing in New Orleans.

Men, women, and children congregated by the hundreds—some reports say thousands—and formed circles. Inside each circle were dancers and musicians, and those who encircled them clapped, sang, shook gourd rattles, responded to the calls of song leaders, added ululations, and replaced fatigued dancers. The gatherers carried their spirituality with them and honored traditional religious beliefs that informed the New World religion known as Voudou, which many of them practiced. Some of the principal leaders ornamented their garments with the tails of small wild animals and used animal skin as containment for herbs and objects that provided healing and good fortune. An early observer noted that those with the most ornamentation and who appeared to be the most menacing attracted the largest circle of company.

Musicians played drums of different styles and sizes made from empty barrels and carved-out logs. They played a variety of percussion as well as melodic instruments including the kalimba, banza, panpipes, gourd rattles, balaphons, animal jawbones, and wooden horns. These and other instruments along with designated songs accompanied popular dances including the Calinda, Bamboula, Congo (Chica), Juba, and Carabine.

Over time, as English-speaking enslaved Africans arrived from other slaveholding areas, the gatherers increasingly added European-based musical instruments, songs, and dances. Those instruments included the Jew’s harp, triangle, violin (fiddle), and tambourine. They danced to “Old Virginia Never Tire” and sang “Hey Jim Along” and “Get Along Home You Yallow Gals.” Yet alongside these additions, gatherers continued to perpetuate and impose many of their traditional practices. The resultant blending of styles and techniques led to the evolution of new styles, indigenous styles, African American styles.

An integral part of the gatherings was the economic exchange, which had enslaved buyers and sellers at its center. The opportunity for enslaved people to earn money on Sundays, their day of rest, enabled them to patronize the market women and other vendors, who sold goods that they had made, gathered, cultivated, and hunted. Popular items included pecan pies, pralines, roasted peanuts, molasses candy, and calas (rice cakes). Beverages included coffee, lemonade, and la bierre du pays, also called ginger beer.

Known by Many Names

Numerous names, official as well as unofficial, identified this location over the years: Place Publique, Place des Nègres, Place Congo, Circus Park, Circus Square, Circus Place, Congo Park, Congo Plains, Place d’ Armes, and Beauregard Square. Names that travelers used when writing about the location include Congo ground, Congo Green, the green expanse, and the commons. However, the name “Congo Square” emerged as the most popular one and appeared on maps of New Orleans during the 1880s, although no city ordinance had made it official. Beauregard Square became the official name in 1893, when a city ordinance bestowed the name in honor of Confederate Gen. P. G. T. Beauregard. The popular name “Congo Square” regained prominence and wide usage beginning in the 1970s with the development of the Louis Armstrong Park complex within which Congo Square is located. In 2011 the New Orleans City Council unanimously passed an ordinance that officially named this location Congo Square.

Other events that occurred at this site during the antebellum years include ball games, horse shows, bullfights, cockfights, foot races, circuses, carriage shows, fireworks displays, military drills, public executions, and the sale of enslaved people. In 1864 more than twenty thousand people gathered in Congo Square to celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation; in 1865 New Orleanians gathered there to commemorate President Lincoln after his assassination.

In the twenty-first century, Congo Square continues to serve as a meeting place for New Orleanians—particularly those of African heritage. Sunday drum circles, family gatherings, weddings, political demonstrations, music festivals, prayer vigils, and gospel performances extend Congo Square’s legacy as a venue of culture, recreation, spirituality, and politics. The first jazz festival was held there in the 1940s. The first New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival took place there in 1970, and the first Congo Square New World Rhythms Festival was held there in 2007.

The National Register of Historic Places listed Congo Square in 1993, and the Congo Square Preservation Society (previously the Congo Square Foundation) placed a historical marker at the site in 1997.


...because main elements that were at the core of jazz (blues, ragtime, baptist-holiness church) had nothing to do with congo square
 

IllmaticDelta

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They have argued .....but I would like to see more of this evidence of this.

I agree that Congo squares doesn’t have a direct influence on Jazz, but to say what took place there was entirely African American rather than African seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

most likely what ever was played in congo square, by the time it closed was new world/creolized in nature. Either way, people like Buddy Bolden never witnessed anything that happened there

Congo square was outlawed in 1844. With New Orleans being a major slave port , I think using the term African American to describe the “black “ people there is inaccurate. They were essentially straight off the boat , or only one generation removed at the most. I think they what culture they were allowed to express was definitely more African.

to me, afram history starts as soon as those africans touched down on USA soil.
 

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most likely what ever was played in congo square, by the time it closed was new world/creolized in nature. Either way, people like Buddy Bolden never witnessed anything that happened there



to me, afram history starts as soon as those africans touched down on USA soil.

I guess we’ll have to disagree there, but I’m enjoying the conversation.


Your depth of knowledge on music history is impressive. You got a PHD in Black folkways in the United States or something ?
 

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I disagree.

Congo square was banned because the predominant white culture in the city began to shift from French and Spanish control to a more Conservative Anglo control.


As far as the redbone thing is concerned, I know of no family who is considered Creole in New Orleans who traces their roots to South Carolina.

For a fact many of them trace their lineage to relationship between a French or Spanish master and mulatto woman.

I’m not disputing the fact that there were creole peoples of mixed heritage in South Carolina or anywhere else in the country, but I think it’s false to say that’s how the creole people in New Orleans got there.

Fortunately slave bought and sold records were kept and maintained in Orleans parish. Going back to 1804 you can search a database and see transactions of slaves bought and sold in Louisiana

Also I find it strange the cultural practices alive and strong in New Orleans aren’t found in other parts of the country, for that matter Louisiana if it’s s predominant black Anglo/Protestant culture. You’re dismissing the catholic influences when New Orleans has black catholic dioceses and a strong black catholic population. We literally take off a week for Marci Gras and meals are prepared to coincide with the observation of lent.

The reason Mardi Gras is a big deal here is because it’s a predominant catholic culture



Oldest parish created by African-Americans celebrates 175 years




Afro-Louisiana History and Genealogy
I think you misunderstood what I was saying in regards to Congo square. What I meant was the black slaves that came from other southern states which were Anglo/protestant brought their cultural norms at the time to new orleans thus influencing in a whole other direction.

I'm not disputing the reason it being banned because that's a fact of what you posted. Also I never said that the creoles got to N.O. by south carolina I simply said that other mixed or free people of color from other states intermingled with them. NOLA is unique and different within itself for obvious reasons but, it's black culture is definitely more Afram influenced and identified than anything else.
 

IllmaticDelta

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O


I guess we’ll have to disagree there, but I’m enjoying the conversation.


Your depth of knowledge on music history is impressive. You got a PHD in Black folkways in the United States or something ?

na:mjgrin:
 

IllmaticDelta

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kinda of topic but, newspaper articles on Bolden from when he lost his mind (schizo):francis:


A story about Buddy Bolden's arrest in March of 1906 from The Daily Picayune.

otbolden32706ajpg-d751d1b147bbe160.jpg



The New Orleans Daily States published this brief report on the arrest of cornet player Buddy Bolden on March 28, 1906.

OYCNZYMMV5HKXAI2LPA633CO6M.jpg
 
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