Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

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I don’t know about the developed in Houston, I’ll just have to disagree with you there

I grew up listening to Zydeco artist like Buckwheat Zydeco, and Kieth Frank and the Soileau band. The Zydeco new breeds like Chris Ardoin are from Louisiana. There’s always been a crossover from Louisiana to Texas because so many people leave here and move to Texas.

I would say SETX gets its culture from SWLA.

Zydeco developed in SW Louisiana.
You can’t have Zydeco without an accordion and washboard.









These guys aren’t from texas


Yes, Zydeco developed in SW LA. I was only talking about urban zydeco which was developed by people who were from SW LA and moved to Houston after WWII like Willie Green and Clifton Chenier where traditional LA zydeco got mixed with Houston urban blues, hence the birth of urban zydeco






(more traditional zydeco, but recorded in houston's frenchtown nonetheless)

The key event in the movement of black Creole music into the public venues of Houston occurred at Irene's Café on Christmas Eve 1949, when accordionist Willie Green played an impromptu concert that drew large crowds and established the zydeco sound as a form of popular entertainment. Soon after that, the owner of Johnson's Lounge in Frenchtown decided to cease booking big bands and to feature Creole accordion music performed by stalwarts such as Lonnie Mitchell, who later assumed operation of the club. Eventually the lease reverted to Johnson's heir, Doris McClendon, who rechristened the lounge the Continental Zydeco Ballroom, the city's (and probably the state's) premier venue for the music throughout the latter half of the twentieth century.



One black Creole who moved to Texas in 1947 and became part of the Frenchtown scene was Clifton Chenier (1925–1987), generally acknowledged today as the "King of Zydeco"—the musician most responsible for popularizing the music. Among Chenier's innovations were the employment of the large piano-key chromatic accordion, which has a wider musical range than the traditional diatonic instrument, and the invention of the modern washboard vest, which expanded the musical possibilities for percussion beyond the limitations of the previously hand-held household utensil. In 1964 at the Gold Star Studio in Houston, Chenier recorded the classic song "Zydeco Sont Pas Salé," in which the producer abandoned the French phrase les haricots for the potent new word.


And yes, SETX a lot culture through family ties with SWLA. And vise versa. That's why a lot of them boys in SW LA be on screw music and ridin slabs.
 
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Damn I remember making this lil thread a bit ago:ehh: ...yall added some good stuff:ohhh: ....still laughing yall let dude derail the thread with that garbage Jamaican hiphop comment(he knew what he was doing).:lolbron: I don't think he even replied after the comment :mjlol: That said I've seen folks try to throw that Jamaican hiphop nonsense out more lately, so I get why folks stop the nonsense on sight.:hubie:









I always thought it was American because of the English accent is obviously American accent. No-one in the caribbean sounds like that :yeshrug:

I was speaking on instrumentation/style(song) more than accent(song performers) but I can see your point :ehh:


That said, cover bands redo peoples songs all the time....
6590585.jpeg
....but you can still can usually tell what genre the song comes from:patrice: I mean even in my OP i think I showed like 3 different renditions of the iko iko song.:yeshrug:
 

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Yes, Zydeco developed in SW LA. I was only talking about urban zydeco which was developed by people who were from SW LA and moved to Houston after WWII like Willie Green and Clifton Chenier where traditional LA zydeco got mixed with Houston urban blues, hence the birth of urban zydeco






(more traditional zydeco, but recorded in houston's frenchtown nonetheless)




And yes, SETX a lot culture through family ties with SWLA. And vise versa. That's why a lot of them boys in SW LA be on screw music and ridin slabs.


More Houston urban zydeco. Again, notice the bluesy feel of it as compared to the traditional la-la style of early rural SW LA zydeco.



 

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Welcome to W C Handy Foundation INC

Handy In Havana

The WC Handy Foundation, Inc developed a music and dance program, Handy in Havana, to explore the Afro-Cuban culture that influenced WC Handy's musical interests and led him to compose his greatest hits including Memphis Blues and Beale Street Blues and St. Louis Blues and become known worldwide as the Father of the Blues. WC his new bride, and his band visited Havana in February 1900, shortly after the Spanish American War. WC witnessed the Buffalo Soldiers fighting for Cuba's freedom and realized the Buffalo Soldiers were not free men in their homeland. WC gained the courage to express himself and upon returning to the USA he began to incorporate many of the Afro-Cuba beats in his blues. Handy in Havana is narrated by WC's only grandson, Dr. Carlos Handy. Dr. Carlos Handy is a Houston resident, a professor of Physics at Texas Southern University, and a local musician who plays the cornet in both the Texas Medical Center Orchestra and The Woodlands Orchestra.
WC Handy is surely a Mount Rushmore figure in the history of music....period. Especially since the Blues laid the foundation for almost everything that came after it. He incorporated Afro-Cuban elements into the Blues after performing in Cuba and hearing local musicians...as acknowledged by music historians and his own grandson.

I don't think that there is any juelzing, filibustering, or deflections from this.

The man most closely associated with the Blues directly added elements from Spanish colony music into the songs that he created.

One of the men most closely associated with Jazz, Jelly Roll Morton says "on tape" the importance of the Spanish tinge on Jazz music and immediately plays a Spanish song "La Paloma",( from the habanera* genre) after saying that to demonstrate

*habanera. (Habana, Havana) is genre of music based on mixing of elements from Cuba and Spain ...obviously derived from the name of the city.


Handy,Morton,Armstrong adding musical elements from other parts of the diaspora into their songs. And because they are seminal figures in music, they added those elements into the genres.
 

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The culture differences are very nuanced in South Louisiana. The same meal, let’s say Gumbo, is done differently in Lafayette than it is in New Orleans. SWLa is rural wide open flat plain, New Orleans is an old world city.

I know for sure a lot of the old creole families in New Orleans have ties to Haiti. They consider themselves Creole. Some of them owned slaves. They were free people of color. Some were offspring of French African mixture, some came here from Haiti.


South of New Orleans you come into contact with people who have Haitian surnames, like Baptiste, Narcisse, Etienne.

The further west you go you start seeing names more in common with French Acadian culture
Cormier
Bureaux
Bourgeois
Chagrois
Chenier
 

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So. :mjlol: at you thinking AAs in Louisiana would have more "cultural exchange" with some damn Cuba or Haiti than with AAs from other states in the US, including mississippi from which New Orleans is right across the Mississippi river from(you could literally walk across the bridge between the two), which also contains the habenera/Hambone/Bo diddley rhythm and polyrhythmic cross rhythms in it's hill country fife and drum music, which you keep trying to assert comes from cuba. So, even if it didn't come to New Orleans directly from Africa, then wouldn't the next most obvious explanation be that it came from other fellow AAs from the Carolinas, Georgia or Mississippi(Ya know the next state over) etc etc? Yet here you are trying to draw some way out there connection with Cuba for some reason(I think we all know why).

FYI.....You do know Texas/Tejas was a Spanish colony(later part of Hispanic Mexico) for far longer than Lousiana was right. How come you aren't saying that Scott Joplin's(who's from Texas) "Spanish Tinge" is from Mexico instead of Cuba, especially when he himself drew the association with Mexico? You just can't accept the fact AA musical and other cultural heritage has nada to due with the Caribbean and that the flow of influence is by and large from us to you.





exactly.....simply put, it's an african rooted motif found all over the americas. Nothing "latin" or "spanish" about it

fNtHyin.jpg


LMIYLIl.jpg




One of the men most closely associated with Jazz, Jelly Roll Morton says "on tape" the importance of the Spanish tinge on Jazz music and immediately plays a Spanish song "La Paloma",( from the habanera* genre) after saying that to demonstrate

*habanera. (Habana, Havana) is genre of music based on mixing of elements from Cuba and Spain ...obviously derived from the name of the city.

read above post
 

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- WC Handy did not invent the blues or lay the foundation for it. He only introduced to the general public.

- The rhythm which you're referring to is what is known in Cuba as the habanera, and the bo diddley/hambone/juba in the US and is common in MS fife & drum music, ring shouts, and cake walk(where ragtime music inherits it from)

- The VAST majority of blues artist don't use it, instead opting for swung and shuffled rhythms

- The song in which he did use it, St. Louis. blues, he explicitly stated himself that RAGTIME music, not anything from cuba, was his inspiration. He even associated the sound with Tango from Argentina. Where tf are you getting Cuba from?

- And neither Handy, Morton, nor Armstrong mentioned anything about being their music being cuban influenced. You're simply imposing that on them based on some "Spanish Tinge" misnomer, which only Morton used.

I'm kind flattered and embarrassed at the same time that these mental gymnastics stretch arm strong extrapolations are being used just so outsiders can try to claim a piece of my culture. Like dude, don't you have anything in your own culture worth preserving outside of lies about mine?
 
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I'm more than happy to let @IllmaticDelta continue to school you, but this is just patently false on so many levels. The slave trade to French Louisiana was for the most part not modeled after and connected at all to the slave trade to french caribbean islands like St. Domingue. In fact trade in general between Louisiana and the Caribbean was highly restricted as to not allow the poor louisiana colony to be economically muscled out by the wealthy caribbean colonies, and slaves from the french caribbean were EXPLICITLY BANNED from entering louisiana due to their "bad nature"(something you can, as a caribbean, take pride in instead of trying to leech off my people's cultural achievements), and louisiana slave traders were ordered to obtain slaves directly from Africa.

51395701_2538807276134601_8482241924890099712_n.jpg

51713751_2538807829467879_1152664794411565056_n.jpg


Most slaves in French Louisiana, two thirds, came form Senegambia due to the slave trade being managed by the Senegal concessions, while most slaves in St. Domingue came from Kongo/Angola and Dahomey. The system of slavery in French louisiana was actually modeled off of the success of the British colonies and Carolinas and Geogia with it's rich cultivation, which also had a disproportionate representation of Senegambian slaves. And lets not even talk about the spanish period when they actually were actually inviting settlers and their slaves from the newly formed independent US to live in Louisiana and help develop the land particularly in Pointee Coupe. Much more slaves would've came from what was then the US than from fukking Cuba. And your entire argument can be put to bed by the fact that the domestic slave trade within the US(which by this time included Louisiana) was many times larger than the atlantic slave trade from outside the US(by and large directly from Africa, not the Caribbean), and Louisiana, and then later Texas was the center point for arrival of these slaves from VA, Carolinas, GA, Tenn. etc etc

So. :mjlol: at you thinking AAs in Louisiana would have more "cultural exchange" with some damn Cuba or Haiti than with AAs from other states in the US, including mississippi from which New Orleans is right across the Mississippi river from(you could literally walk across the bridge between the two), which also contains the habenera/Hambone/Bo diddley rhythm and polyrhythmic cross rhythms in it's hill country fife and drum music, which you keep trying to assert comes from cuba. So, even if it didn't come to New Orleans directly from Africa, then wouldn't the next most obvious explanation be that it came from other fellow AAs from the Carolinas, Georgia or Mississippi(Ya know the next state over) etc etc? Yet here you are trying to draw some way out there connection with Cuba for some reason(I think we all know why).

FYI.....You do know Texas/Tejas was a Spanish colony(later part of Hispanic Mexico) for far longer than Lousiana was right. How come you aren't saying that Scott Joplin's(who's from Texas) "Spanish Tinge" is from Mexico instead of Cuba, especially when he himself drew the association with Mexico? You just can't accept the fact AA musical and other cultural heritage has nada to due with the Caribbean and that the flow of influence is by and large from us to you.





The Saint-Domingue Revolution | 64 Parishes
The Saint Domingue Revolution
Effects on Louisiana

The Saint-Domingue revolution had a great impact on Louisiana from the 1790s through the 1810s; first and foremost was France’s loss in its attempted re-conquest of the island during 1802 and 1803. Napoleon had hoped to retake Saint-Dominque in order to revive the sugar trade and reestablish the island as a source of wealth for France. In 1800 he negotiated with Spain in the Treaty of San Iledefonso for the French possession of Louisiana, which would serve as a breadbasket for Saint-Dominque. When French forces were defeated by Haitian rebels, Napoleon no longer needed the colony of Louisiana and decided to sell the entire colony to the United States in April 1803. Thomas Jefferson had sent emissaries Robert Livingston and James Monroe to negotiate with France for the sale of the Isle of Orleans (the City of New Orleans). Napoleon, who realized he could use the sale to finance his planned campaign against Great Britain, then offered to sell the entire colony for $15 million. Livingston and Monroe agreed to the sale, and on December 20, 1803, Louisiana was officially transferred from French to US control.

The revolution also had a great impact on Louisiana’s slave and immigration policies. In the 1790s Louisiana’s Spanish colonial Governor Francisco Luis Hector de Carondolet feared that immigrants from Saint-Domingue would import dangerous, revolutionary ideas, so he attempted to keep slaves and free people of color from the island from entering Louisiana. The discovery of a planned slave rebellion on Julien Poydras’s plantation in Point Coupee in 1795 seemed to confirm this suspicion. Aware of the revolution in Saint-Domingue, Poydras’s slaves plotted to burn several buildings and then use the ensuing confusion as a way to seize weapons and kill their masters. Though the rebellion was aborted, white anxieties about slave insurrections remained. Unwelcome in Louisiana initially, most of the whites, slaves, and free people of color who fled Saint-Domingue during the uprising went to other places in the Caribbean, particularly the eastern Cuban port of Santiago de Cuba. As tensions between Spain and France over the Napoleonic wars escalated, these refugees found themselves unwelcome in Cuba by 1809.

Louisiana Territorial Governor William C. C. Claiborne was reluctant to allow Saint-Domingue refugees into Louisiana. In 1809 and 1810 Claiborne believed that their presence would be a hindrance to the growth of American democratic principles. At the same time, U.S. slave laws passed in 1807 prohibited the importation of slaves from outside the nation. On the one hand, Claiborne allowed enslaved persons—referred to as “servants” on ship manifests—into the Louisiana Territory to appease planters’ need for labor. On the other hand, Claiborne prohibited the immigration of free men of color but allowed free women of color passage.

Between the beginning of May and the end of July 1809 thirty-four vessels brought nearly 5,800 Saint-Domingue émigrés to Louisiana from Cuba; immigrants from Guadalupe and other Caribbean islands soon followed. In all, some ten thousand Saint-Domingue refugees arrived in Louisiana between 1809 and 1810. About one-third of them were white elite, another third were free people of color, and the remaining third were slaves, who belonged to either the whites or the free blacks.

In 1812 the largest slave revolt in U.S. history, known as the Deslondes Revolt, occurred upriver from New Orleans. Once again, U.S. authorities and planters blamed the revolt on the political effect of the Haitian revolution. While the rebellion was ultimately put down, the political legacy of Haiti’s success was great and far-reaching.

The influx of Saint-Domingue refugees undeniably shaped Louisiana culture, particularly that of New Orleans. The number of free people of color in New Orleans doubled, as did the number of French speakers in the city. As a result, Louisiana Creoles generally encouraged such immigration, seeing the refugees as potential cultural allies in the struggle against Americanization. Some immigrants became citizens of great standing in the community. Gilbert Joseph Pilie, for example, was a prominent Creole architect, surveyor, and civil engineer who made a lasting impact on New Orleans and Louisiana. He served as city surveyor, beginning in 1818, and mapped out the plan for the Esplanade Prolongment (Esplanade Avenue), which serves as the lower border of the French Quarter and connects the Mississippi riverfront to City Park. As an architect, he designed the main house at Oak Alley Plantation, perhaps one of the most iconic plantation homes in the country, for his son-in-law Jacques Telesphore Roman. He is also credited with designing the main iron gate of the Cabildo entrance and the iron fence around Jackson Square.

The revolution also left a huge void in the global market for sugar—a void that Louisiana subsequently filled. The large influx of Saint-Domingue immigrants helped to further develop Louisiana’s nascent sugar industry. In the late 1790s sugar planters, such as Etienne Bore, used Haitian refining techniques to successfully granulate sugar. This development made the crop more profitable. Whereas tobacco and indigo were the principal plantation crops in the Spanish colonial period, by the American era sugar and cotton had emerged as the two most important export crops and fueled a great labor demand—and therefore a boom in the market for enslaved persons.

New Orleans’s signature dish, red beans and rice, is also credited to the Saint-Dominguans. Immigrants from the island brought to New Orleans a preference for mixing large red kidney beans with rice and pork flavoring; in the city, it became a dish associated with Mondays, which were traditional wash days when a pot of beans could be easily cooked without much supervision, leaving time for tending to the day’s wash. Today in Haiti riz national, the Creole dialect term for “national rice,” is the nation’s most popular rice-and-beans dish. And in the eastern province of Santiago de Cuba, where many Saint-Dominguan immigrants settled in the 1800s, red beans and rice is still the local dish, which differs from black beans and rice (moros y cristianos), the signature dish of western Cuba.

The Saint-Domingue refugees also left a considerable cultural mark on New Orleans. Voodoo is often associated with both Haiti and New Orleans. The religion is essentially a syncretic blend of West African spiritual beliefs and Catholicism. In Louisiana, the Code Noir required all enslaved Africans to be baptized in the Catholic Church, and those who became Christian often blended their traditional spiritual beliefs with Catholic rituals. The influx of voodoo practitioners from Saint-Domingue in the early 1800s added another layer of voodoo culture, which became more prominent in the mid-1800s under priestess Marie Laveau and her daughter.

Historian Emily Clark has argued that the New Orleans legends of the quadroon balls and plaçage were a consequence of the immigration as well. Quadroon balls, in which balls only admitted free women of color and free white men, were practiced in Saint-Domingue in the 1790s, and the practice was employed to a limited degree in New Orleans during the 1810s. Travelers’ accounts of the balls and the practice of placage helped to associate the practice with the city and become part of New Orleans’s exaggerated and inaccurate history promoted by tour guides in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By the way, here is one of the descendants of the Free people of color who fled St. Domingue and ended up in New Orleans

 

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The Saint-Domingue Revolution | 64 Parishes
The Saint Domingue Revolution
Effects on Louisiana
The Saint-Domingue revolution had a great impact on Louisiana from the 1790s through the 1810s; first and foremost was France’s loss in its attempted re-conquest of the island during 1802 and 1803. Napoleon had hoped to retake Saint-Dominque in order to revive the sugar trade and reestablish the island as a source of wealth for France. In 1800 he negotiated with Spain in the Treaty of San Iledefonso for the French possession of Louisiana, which would serve as a breadbasket for Saint-Dominque. When French forces were defeated by Haitian rebels, Napoleon no longer needed the colony of Louisiana and decided to sell the entire colony to the United States in April 1803. Thomas Jefferson had sent emissaries Robert Livingston and James Monroe to negotiate with France for the sale of the Isle of Orleans (the City of New Orleans). Napoleon, who realized he could use the sale to finance his planned campaign against Great Britain, then offered to sell the entire colony for $15 million. Livingston and Monroe agreed to the sale, and on December 20, 1803, Louisiana was officially transferred from French to US control.

The revolution also had a great impact on Louisiana’s slave and immigration policies. In the 1790s Louisiana’s Spanish colonial Governor Francisco Luis Hector de Carondolet feared that immigrants from Saint-Domingue would import dangerous, revolutionary ideas, so he attempted to keep slaves and free people of color from the island from entering Louisiana. The discovery of a planned slave rebellion on Julien Poydras’s plantation in Point Coupee in 1795 seemed to confirm this suspicion. Aware of the revolution in Saint-Domingue, Poydras’s slaves plotted to burn several buildings and then use the ensuing confusion as a way to seize weapons and kill their masters. Though the rebellion was aborted, white anxieties about slave insurrections remained. Unwelcome in Louisiana initially, most of the whites, slaves, and free people of color who fled Saint-Domingue during the uprising went to other places in the Caribbean, particularly the eastern Cuban port of Santiago de Cuba. As tensions between Spain and France over the Napoleonic wars escalated, these refugees found themselves unwelcome in Cuba by 1809.

.

the impact is way overstated.


see:


NS: France basically abandoned the colony after 1731, right?

GMH: Well, “abandoned” in the sense that most of the French colonists left, and very few came, so that there was a majority of Africans in all of the French settlements in colonial Louisiana, so that French Louisiana was heavily African. And it remained heavily African during the Spanish period, although there were more European-type colonizers who were brought in during the Spanish period, but there was still a slight majority of Africans and their descendants – a slight majority of slaves, in fact. There were also some Native American slaves.

NS: One of the major points I get from reading Africans in Colonial Louisiana was that there was an Afro-Louisianan identity firmly established early on.

GMH: Yes, it was established through language and culture. And the language, of course, was Louisiana Creole, which arose in the first generation. And that’s normal; Creole languages do that, they are established very early, and then newcomers have to pretty much learn that language, although of course, all languages evolve. But Louisiana Creole had been established for a long time before there was any substantial immigration from Haiti. So that Haitian Kreyol and Louisiana Creole are fairly distinct languages. And you cannot attribute Louisiana Creole to Haitian Kreyol, which is often done.

NS: If an Afro-Louisianan culture was well-established from an early date, that also would necessarily have included music.

GMH: Yes. Now, unfortunately, at least from what I’ve seen, I’ve seen much less about music than what we would want. Just a few descriptions of dances and instruments and stuff like that in the documents, but not a lot.

.
.

NS: There’s a certain amount of lore that suggests that from that point we start to see – though there was already, as you pointed out, a Dahomeyan population in Louisiana. At that point we start to see voodoo appear in New Orleans culture. And I notice that in Louisiana they have “voodoo queens,” something unknown in Haiti…

GMH: Exactly. It’s distinctive. And Marie Laveau – you know, there’s this tendency to have everybody be Haitian. And they weren’t! Including Marie Laveau. She had no Haitian ancestors. She was Louisiana Creole. Charles Lalond, who was the leader of the 1811 slave revolt on the German Coast – Charles Gayarré passed the misinformation that he was a free man of color from Haiti. He was no such thing. He was a mulatto Creole slave of Louisiana. And I have not found any Haitians involved in any revolt or conspiracy against slavery in Louisiana. And I’ve looked through lots and lots of documents. And you can look yourself in my database. None of them were Haitians.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall






Most Black people from Louisiana were taken there during the Slave trade from other Southern States. They were sold down the Mississippi River from places like North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee to plantations in Louisiana and Mississippi. Which is where we get the "phrase sold down the river" from.

The conditions in Mississippi and Louisiana were much harsher and the slave owners were much poorer and much more ignorant than in the other States; that the slaves were taken from which is why the slaves dreaded being sold down river and going into those States.

Btw, not all the Black people in New Orleans were from Haiti. France lay claim to New Orleans since it's founding in 1718. Most of the slaves belonged to the French that had plantations in and around New Orleans; rather than Haitians that were bought there by other French slave owners during the Haitian Revolution.





read...

GMH: For the U.S., but it was earlier in Louisiana. Because they were afraid, you know. I think there was a lot of fear of new Africans. The greatest fear of all was for Caribbeans. But new Africans were also feared.

NS: Then there was also a commercial motive, given the power of Virginia, to sell Americanized slaves from Virginia and Maryland down South.

GMH: Oh, that became tremendous business in the 19 th century.

NS: The slave-breeding industry…

GMH: Yes. That’s something else that needs to be databased, because there are shipping records giving great detail about slaves who were shipped from the east coast ports, all the way through 1860. Especially into New Orleans, but you can track them, you know, where they went from there, a few other ports, these were customs-house records of the United States, and they’re on microfilm. And so somebody needs to database that too.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By the way, here is one of the descendants of the Free people of color who fled St. Domingue and ended up in New Orleans



The actual father of jazz, way before jelly roll knew what jazz was (he was leading the first jazz bands in New Orleans when morton was only 5 year old!)

Buddy_Bolden_photo_2_HNOC_(2)-1361748327.jpg


Many early jazz musicians credited Bolden and the members of his band with being the originators of what came to be known as "jazz", though the term was not in common musical use until after the era of Bolden's prominence. At least one writer has labeled him the father of jazz.[8] He is credited with creating a looser, more improvised version of ragtime and adding blues to it; Bolden's band was said to be the first to have brass instruments play the blues. He was also said to have taken ideas from gospel music heard in uptown African-American Baptist churches.

Instead of imitating other cornetists, Bolden played music he heard "by ear" and adapted it to his horn. In doing so, he created an exciting and novel fusion of ragtime, black sacred music, marching-band music, and rural blues. He rearranged the typical New Orleans dance band of the time to better accommodate the blues; string instruments became the rhythm section, and the front-line instruments were clarinets, trombones, and Bolden's cornet. Bolden was known for his powerful, loud, "wide open" playing style.[6] Joe "King" Oliver, Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson, and other early New Orleans jazz musicians were directly inspired by his playing.




He was also of a Virginian background:

three of those questions relate to more finite information about Buddy’s ancestors: where they were born, were they born into slavery, and how much African blood they carried.

Many musicians and writers (none of whom had ever seen Bolden or heard him play) described Buddy Bolden as a black Baptist from Uptown New Orleans. Jelly Roll Morton was, without doubt, the best and most accurate chronicler of musicians, sports, and events in New Orleans in the early years of the twentieth century, and, fortunately for us, his recollections were documented by the late Alan Lomax for the Archive of American Folk Song at the Library of Congress in Washington D. C. In response to a question by Lomax whether Buddy Bolden was a Negro and dark, Jelly Roll had this to say:

“Buddy Bolden was a New Orleans boy . . . as far as I know. . . . He was a Negro, yes. Right in New Orleans. . . . No, no . . . he was light complected. He was what you call a light brown skin boy.” [AFS 1658-B]

Don Marquis discovered that Buddy was born in New Orleans on 6th September 1877 as Charles Bolden, the son of Westmore Bolden and Alice Harris. As is the case of many children born in 19th century New Orleans, whether black or white, there are no official birth records for Bolden. Details of his birth were recorded on 7th March 1884 in the Baptismal Register of the First Street Baptist Church, which was also known as the St. John the Fourth Baptist Church, in uptown New Orleans.

Buddy’s father, Westmore Bolden, was the son of Gustave Bolden and Frances Smith. On the strength of a rather peculiar statement on Gustave Bolden’s death certificate issued in the name of “Augustus Bolen” on 4th August 1866 that the deceased was “a native of the United State of Louisiana,” Don Marquis incorrectly assumed that Gustave Bolden was born in Louisiana. In actual fact, both Gustave and his wife were born in the state of Virginia. Their three children, however, were born in Louisiana but not in New Orleans.


jazz @ (his or her) - story: Buddy Bolden
 

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exactly.....simply put, it's an african rooted motif found all over the americas. Nothing "latin" or "spanish" about it

fNtHyin.jpg


LMIYLIl.jpg






read above post
If you're discounting the "Spanish" aspect of that music, how can you then assert the "American-ness" of the music developed here in the same time period ?

I'm saying that diasporan Africans connected and influenced each other. That's the point I'm making here.

Here is a clip of Dizzy Gilliespie talking about how much he dug music from Cuba and he brought in an Afro Cuban percussionist to play in his band.

not allowing me to embed

plays a sax.mp4

In the clip....Dizz recounts story ....the percussionist, who doesn't speak any English......is asked how can he communicate and play music in a band led by a man who doesn't speak Spanish.

His answer is "I don't speak English...Dizzy doesn't speak Spanish, but we both speak Africa"

 

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the impact is way overstated.

see:




Gwendolyn Midlo Hall












read...



Gwendolyn Midlo Hall




The actual father of jazz, way before jelly roll knew what jazz was (he was leading the first jazz bands in New Orleans when morton was only 5 year old!)

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He was also of a Virginian background:




jazz @ (his or her) - story: Buddy Bolden


If the numbers are true about the exodus of people from St. Domingue, then how can you say the impact is
over rated? If the number of Free Blacks DOUBLED? If Saint Domingue was the CENTER of the french colonial empire and the RICHEST slave colony in the Americas, you'd have to figure that it was the cultural and artistic center as well. How could those gens de couleur not affect the culture in the new place?

(For comparison, you're saying that a mass of New Yorkers can flood a town of people that they have cultural similarities to..bringing in the same number of people who are already there and not leave a HUGE impact on the culture that already exists there?)


I'm familiar with Bolden and you mentioned him earlier in the thread. I said that W.C. Handy is the man most closely associated with the Blues and that Jelly Roll Morton is one of the men most closely associated with Jazz. These statements were true yesterday and will be true tomorrow.
I'm wondering why there is reluctance to accept the facts? That African diasporic cultures had influence on others. In the grand scheme of things, it was minimal influence on the Blues or Jazz , but It's puzzling to me why people are not going to acknowledge that it was there?
I am legit puzzled.
 

IllmaticDelta

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If you're discounting the "Spanish" aspect of that music, how can you then assert the "American-ness" of the music developed here in the same time period ?

what Im saying that the singular motif was African.


Aframs used that motif in ragtime, mississippi fife and drum etc..

Cubans used that motif in their son music etc

Argentinians used that motif in their Tangos



I'm saying that diasporan Africans connected and influenced each other. That's the point I'm making here.

That's depends on what music you're talking about. In this case, Aframs didn't get the "spanish tinge" (which is not spanish but african) from any Cubans. It was something already present in the music. It's like hearing this afram ring shout and calling it the "jamaican-dembow tinge" because they use the same beat in their dancehall music, which whee most people heard that beat on national level



Here is a clip of Dizzy Gilliespie talking about how much he dug music from Cuba and he brought in an Afro Cuban percussionist to play in his band.

not allowing me to embed

plays a sax.mp4

In the clip....Dizz recounts story ....the percussionist, who doesn't speak any English......is asked how can he communicate and play music in a band led by a man who doesn't speak Spanish.

His answer is "I don't speak English...Dizzy doesn't speak Spanish, but we both speak Africa"


yes, in that instance, dizzy is trying to say they both have common origins so it helps them understand one another MUSICALLY, even though one of them speaks english and the other spanish but in reality Afram music and Cuban music have largely, different vocabs.

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Between the beginning of May and the end of July 1809 thirty-four vessels brought nearly 5,800 Saint-Domingue émigrés to Louisiana from Cuba; immigrants from Guadalupe and other Caribbean islands soon followed. In all, some ten thousand Saint-Domingue refugees arrived in Louisiana between 1809 and 1810. About one-third of them were white elite, another third were free people of color, and the remaining third were slaves, who belonged to either the whites or the free blacks.

Domestic slave trade

"When the United States banned the transatlantic slave trade in 1808, the domestic trade boomed, and no place was a bigger hub for that trade than New Orleans. Planters and traders dragged nearly one million enslaved people out of the eastern seaboard and the Upper South in the decades before the Civil War, and more than 100,000 of them passed through the city. Most were sold into the cotton and sugar fields of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and beyond. But there is essentially no public recognition of this cruel fact anywhere in New Orleans."
New Orleans should acknowledge its lead role in the slave trade: Erin M. Greenwald and Joshua D. Rothman


Now, who's impact do you think was bigger.?
:mjlol:

And those are just the slaves alone, not including the whites and free blacks who emigrated from the "old" US. Furthermore that was only those that arrived by sea at the port of New Orleans, not including those who arrived by land into louisiana.

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Just from 1804-1820 the slave population in Louisiana would boom (from about 25,000 to nearly 70,000 in 1820), "largely from the domestic or inter-state slave trade".

New Orleans has a many times greater historical connection with Richmond VA alone than with the entire caribbean combined, especially as it concerns African-Americans.

Richmond Virgina & New Orleans Louisiana Connection Two Main Domestic Slave Trade Ports

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It is estimated that between 1790 and 1860 approximately 835,000 slaves were relocated to the American South (economists describe them as being "imported" from the Upper South, but they were being relocated within US territories.)[4] Historians most widely use the figure of one million slaves relocated during this Middle Passage.
Domestic slave trade - Wikipedia
 
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