ALL TIME....THE HEART BREAK KID SHAWN MICHAELS...or the MACHO MAN RANDY SAVAGE...REAL simple

[PYRRHUS 88]

It is only important to smarks who would rather look for the strings than kick back and enjoy the magic show.

meanwhile you're in here using buyrates and behind the scenes booking practices to measure the merits of an artistic performance. What part of "kicking back and enjoying the show" is that? That's wayyy less smarkish than favouring a wrestler because he's a better wrestler and has better matches, huh?

You must have Alannis Morissette and Celine Dion in your top 15 GOAT albums

Titanic the GOAT motion picture

Backstreet Boys one of the GOAT bands

etc.


You can't think that more mainstream popularity ⇔ greater, and deny any of the above.

 

[Art Barr]

Pro wrestling in 1992 wasn't on the level of pro wrestling in 1989, and that's not due to the "Macho Man" Randy Savge or Shawn Michaels. So using the Sherry comparison doesn't make sense to me.

sherry was made a draw by savage, solely and originally.
when, originally in the awa sherry opposite hbk as the heel valet.
never gave hbk the same rub ever in the awa.
when, hbk had a rock'n roll express gimmick.
the same tag team who had lineage in scope as the greatest high quality franchise fueds ever with cornette and the midnights.
of which, hbk was never able to elevate himself or those awa tag encountes with sherry.

if there was no savage to create high profile drawing lane for sherry in the wwf.
sherry would have never been able to elevate hbk, EVER.

that is what you don't get.



art barr

 

[Art Barr]

You might be the greatest poster ever, but you aint gonna sit here and shyt on bret hart and shawn michaels like they werent literally 1A during there prime.

the gen, that those guys were in the wwf.
was a full decade behind the workrate of the nwa.

a full decade................
we can start at:

pillman vs liger and i can smash on you from there.
real talk,...
only wwf matches before hbk's comeback that can rival old ass nwa performers like that.
all involve some principal of a higher workerrate based worker from another promotion.
coming into the wwf, and not mainstays of the prestige of bret.
yet, in the nwa...
there were hordes of matches and workers who were having higher quality workrate moveset based matches that were better.

if you want me to go fully in, we can.

hbk, got his best results after he came back in bulk.
which was after the sports entertainment finish was being phased out for the workrate based finish.
yet, before the workrate based finish and match template was fully layed out in execution from:

scsa vs triple faces of foley.

why did hbk only have great matches with guys who were only his buddies.
or, people who already were known as higher quality workers and draws.

all of hbk's five star matches, outside of taker in hiac.
before hbk, came back were from workers.
who developed their workrates and had encounters of higher quality in other promotions.
any worker he had five star matches with when he came back.
were workers who could and in principle had elevated or been involved in five star matches based off of their merit, metrics and workrate.

he carried no one to five star matches, when he came back.
everyone he had a five star match with,..are just like triple h's resume.
filed with people who already were known for makign consistent classic by just their standard workrate.
so, people even posting hbk's later career five star matches versus macho in his later career.
don't tell the full tale, at all.


art barr

 

[thenatural]

sherry was made a draw by savage, solely and originally.
when, originally in the awa sherry opposite hbk as the heel valet.
never gave hbk the same rub ever in the awa.
when, hbk had a rock'n roll express gimmick.
the same tag team who had lineage in scope as the greatest high quality franchise fueds ever with cornette and the midnights.
of which, hbk was never able to elevate himself or those awa tag encountes with sherry.

if there was no savage to create high profile drawing lane for sherry in the wwf.
sherry would have never been able to elevate hbk, EVER.

that is what you don't get.



art barr

I completely disagree. Shawn throwing his ex-teammate's head through a glass window probably had more to do with elevating him than Sensational Sherri.

But I'm going to let you continue on your crusade of replying to everyone whom you disagree with.

 

[BelowTheMasonDixon]

the gen, that those guys were in the wwf.
was a full decade behind the workrate of the nwa.

a full decade................
we can start at:

pillman vs liger and i can smash on you from there.
real talk,...
only wwf matches before hbk's comeback that can rival old ass nwa performers like that.
all involve some principal of a higher workerrate based worker from another promotion.
coming into the wwf, and not mainstays of the prestige of bret.
yet, in the nwa...
there were hordes of matches and workers who were having higher quality workrate moveset based matches that were better.

if you want me to go fully in, we can.

hbk, got his best results after he came back in bulk.
which was after the sports entertainment finish was being phased out for the workrate based finish.
yet, before the workrate based finish and match template was fully layed out in execution from:

scsa vs triple faces of foley.

why did hbk only have great matches with guys who were only his buddies.
or, people who already were known as higher quality workers and draws.

all of hbk's five star matches, outside of taker in hiac.
before hbk, came back were from workers.
who developed their workrates and had encounters of higher quality in other promotions.
any worker he had five star matches with when he came back.
were workers who could and in principle had elevated or been involved in five star matches based off of their merit, metrics and workrate.

he carried no one to five star matches, when he came back.
everyone he had a five star match with,..are just like triple h's resume.
filed with people who already were known for makign consistent classic by just their standard workrate.
so, people even posting hbk's later career five star matches versus macho in his later career.
don't tell the full tale, at all.


art barr

I see you ain't say none of that shyt about Bret though. and you got good...not great points. but this post is saying Macho Man >>> Shaun Michaels and its not true. They are both legendary 2nd tier acts.

 

[PYRRHUS 88]

the gen, that those guys were in the wwf.
was a full decade behind the workrate of the nwa.

a full decade................
we can start at:

pillman vs liger and i can smash on you from there.
real talk,...
only wwf matches before hbk's comeback that can rival old ass nwa performers like that.
all involve some principal of a higher workerrate based worker from another promotion.
coming into the wwf, and not mainstays of the prestige of bret.
yet, in the nwa...
there were hordes of matches and workers who were having higher quality workrate moveset based matches that were better.

if you want me to go fully in, we can.

hbk, got his best results after he came back in bulk.
which was after the sports entertainment finish was being phased out for the workrate based finish.
yet, before the workrate based finish and match template was fully layed out in execution from:

scsa vs triple faces of foley.

why did hbk only have great matches with guys who were only his buddies.
or, people who already were known as higher quality workers and draws.

all of hbk's five star matches, outside of taker in hiac.
before hbk, came back were from workers.
who developed their workrates and had encounters of higher quality in other promotions.
any worker he had five star matches with when he came back.
were workers who could and in principle had elevated or been involved in five star matches based off of their merit, metrics and workrate.

he carried no one to five star matches, when he came back.
everyone he had a five star match with,..are just like triple h's resume.
filed with people who already were known for makign consistent classic by just their standard workrate.
so, people even posting hbk's later career five star matches versus macho in his later career.
don't tell the full tale, at all.


art barr

We going to act like HBK's two 5 star ladder matches against Scott Hall aren't at least 2 stars above anything else in Hall's career?

We going to act like his match against Foley in 96 isn't the best wrestling match Foley ever had?

We going to act like Undertaker was even in anything better than 2 stars before HBK put a performance for the ages in the HIAC in 97?

We going to act like the only genuinely great match Macho Man has on his resume wasn't against a guy who has multiple 5 star matches on his (Steamboat obv)?

We going to overlook the fact that Savage, in his prime, had like a 1.5 star match against a quality worker (DiBiase) in the main event of WrestleMania?

 

[Art Barr]

Name 20 Randy classic matches brehs


You can't


HBGOAT has more Mania classics then randy has classics

savage has the definitive workrate based match of the modern era.
of which hbk will never EVER be able to match.
as any template of a match to showcase quality.
hbk has to use components of savage/steamboat to do it.
as hbk, is not visionary and again was a whole decade dated to workrate in other promotions.
when, he was on top and his healthiest.
plus, when he came back.
the wwf finally had moved and advanced its workrate principles based upon early scsa.
which was built off of scsa bringing the updated match rubrick of savage/steamboat into the wwf.
as scsa was the last principle to elongate the said template of that match with an aging steamboat.

so, it is a asterik and misnomer to hbk's late career matches.
as savage's braintrust was still amplifying the wwe workrate two decades later.
that allowed hbk the ability to come back and have five star matches.
savage is the very reason why workrate was given precedence eventually in the wwf.
that allowed workers like hbk, to even get used on the card.
that is how profoundly more talented of a worker savage was in just workrate, and ring generalship.

in intangibles where supposedly an even matchup is supposed to be decided.
macho dwarf's hbk in those categories as well.
so, how in the fukk is hbk anywhere near savage.
if savage's braintrust was still influencing wwf/wwe workrate twenty years later.
while, no component to any hbk matches.
were ever used to add to the template of the five star match rating.
plus, his moveset and workrate were a full decade dated.
when, scsa came into the wwf.
whereas scsa's goat pedigree braintrust included the five star template and execution directly from flair, stampede with pillman, arn, steamboat, and even savage, as well.



whereas hbk only had a residual of the GOat pedigree braintrust from hall's run as flair's protege.

hbk, never was near macho, in actual skill ever.
when, judge prospectvely at their heighest skill apex.






art barr

 

[KEEPITTRILLA]

@Wacky D shut up fakkit and go back to the booth pretending your retarded ass base head opinions matter

 

[Art Barr]

We going to act like HBK's two 5 star ladder matches against Scott Hall aren't at least 2 stars above anything else in Hall's career?

We going to act like his match against Foley in 96 isn't the best wrestling match Foley ever had?

We going to act like Undertaker was even in anything better than 2 stars before HBK put a performance for the ages in the HIAC in 97?

We going to act like the only genuinely great match Macho Man has on his resume wasn't against a guy who has multiple 5 star matches on his (Steamboat obv)?

We going to overlook the fact that Savage, in his prime, had like a 1.5 star match against a quality worker (DiBiase) in the main event of WrestleMania?

stampede already had higher rated ladder matches that were significantly more advanced than any hbk/razor ladder match.

as a matter of fact, the template of the ladder match in the wwf.
was a dumbed down template that bret brought into the fold of the wwf.

foley had already had and was an established world wide phenom and a five star worker in any versatile style, by then.
so, hbk was really going off of mick's template.
that if you watch that match, then watch say a mick five star brawl or even a hybrid with workrate.
all mirrored principals that mick had already developed that hbk was able to utilize because of mick as a principal.

it is known about the ring general ship that savage lead the calling of the steamboat/savage match.
plus, elevated the modern workrate and set the template of the modern five star match rating quality domestically.

in that era in which you speak,..
the me of mania was to be a squash in general to just have the deed occur.
the fact it even got a rating and was rated, when typically a squash doesn't receive a rating.
is indicative of how palatable savage could make what should be a squash receive a rating.
when, for all intents and purposes.
a match of that type usually never EVER gets a rating.


art barr

 

[Wacky D]

@Wacky D shut up fakkit and go back to the booth pretending your retarded ass base head opinions matter

i dont even know you.

you sound like a young dikkhead.

 

[Art Barr]

HBK and it aint even close tbh. more charisma, better matches, better promos, more swag, much better twilight years

its just all u 70s and 80s babies with nostalgia glasses

hbk never had more intangibles on macho's level.
let alone actual talent that resulted in the same type of draw.

macho dwarf's hbk in any and every category and he was a better more advanced high flyer as well.
as again, hbk was dated by a decade.
while macho, was pretty much flying across the ring like rvd's five star like fifteen years predating this.


art barr

 

[Art Barr]

I see you ain't say none of that shyt about Bret though. and you got good...not great points. but this post is saying Macho Man >>> Shaun Michaels and its not true. They are both legendary 2nd tier acts.

macho man, is a top tier act.
michaels was a third tier act, actually.

first off, macho man, vs steamboat is the greatest feud in wwf history, period.
it goes above and beyound the original rock/snuka, and even bret/scsa feud wise.

not to metnion,........
macho was the top heel and one of the most progressive angles in hogun's legacy in the megapowers.
plus, hogun's entire career as a workers.
it could be argued it is hogun's most compelling program, ever.
when, taking into account the actual build, to the exact finish.

when, hogun typically never had any actual quality in his programs, outside of this and another instance.
hogun during wwf's hulkamania only had two quality programs.

hogun against mr wonderful, and against macho.
are, the only two quality hulkamania programs in the early wwf history.

so, what are you saying....
you really don't now your shyt like that, and your posting hinges on clique emotional based sentimentalism.
evidenced by who graces your avi.


art barr

 

[BelowTheMasonDixon]

macho man, is a top tier act.
michaels was a third tier act, actually.

first off, macho man, vs steamboat is the greatest feud in wwf history, period.
it goes above and beyound the original rock/snuka, and even bret/scsa feud wise.

not to metnion,........
macho was the top heel and one of the most progressive angles in hogun's legacy in the megapowers.
plus, hogun's entire career as a workers.
it could be argued it is hogun's most compelling program, ever.
when, taking into account the actual build, to the exact finish.

when, hogun typically never had any actual quality in his programs, outside of this and another instance.
hogun during wwf's hulkamania only had two quality programs.

hogun against mr wonderful, and against macho.
are, the only two quality hulkamania programs in the early wwf history.

so, what are you saying....
you really don't now your shyt like that, and your posting hinges on clique emotional based sentimentalism.
evidenced by who graces your avi.


art barr

I'm drunk. tomorrow I'm giving you both barrels cause you are flat out wrong.

 

[Art Barr]

i know exactly what you are saying but yes i am sorry, i would still rather "cling" to warrior's short albeit godly untouchable run than shawn's longer and more plentiful one.

shawn got time on his side and more memorable moments, but to me warrior has the greater and more significant ones. and had warrior never injured his relationship with the mcmahons, i'm sure those moments would have been more celebrated over the years instead of being largely ignored and forgotten. his intercontinental run after beating honky tonk, his feud with rick rude, him beating hulk hogan, his feud and match with randy savage... these were some of the most watched and most legendary moments in the history of wrestling.

millions of people remember ultimate warrior beating hulk hogan for the title, the greatest the sport had ever seen up until that point. that first image of him eating a clean 3 count is iconic and unforgettable, as is that lasting image of warrior hoisting both titles in celebration amidst the fireworks.

shawn doesn't have THIS.

millions of people remember THIS.

i cannot tell you what most people believe shawn's single defining moments is, but i can tell you there is a solid chance that not a lot of people remember seeing it live.

also,..
this was the last moment in wrasslin history.
that the actual local live news all across the nation covered the story.
where they violated the wwf ideal of not showing the results on the news.
no hbk momentous win was ever given precedent.
where local news networks risked being sued to cover.

you can say that hbk has higher workrate,..
yet, neither bret nor hbk were ever singularly higher draws than warrior at his height..

t


art barr

 

[PYRRHUS 88]

stampede already had higher rated ladder matches that were significantly more advanced than any hbk/razor ladder match.

as a matter of fact, the template of the ladder match in the wwf.
was a dumbed down template that bret brought into the fold of the wwf.

foley had already had and was an established world wide phenom and a five star worker in any versatile style, by then.
so, hbk was really going off of mick's template.
that if you watch that match, then watch say a mick five star brawl or even a hybrid with workrate.
all mirrored principals that mick had already developed that hbk was able to utilize because of mick as a principal.

it is known about the ring general ship that savage lead the calling of the steamboat/savage match.
plus, elevated the modern workrate and set the template of the modern five star match rating quality domestically.

in that era in which you speak,..
the me of mania was to be a squash in general to just have the deed occur.
the fact it even got a rating and was rated, when typically a squash doesn't receive a rating.
is indicative of how palatable savage could make what should be a squash receive a rating.
when, for all intents and purposes.
a match of that type usually never EVER gets a rating.


art barr

No one cares about some old Stampede bullshyt that like 500 people have even seen. Shawn vs Razor was, and remains, the benchmark ladder match and the direct antecedent for every highly rated WWE ladder match that came after it. Without Shawn vs Razor, you don't have multiple 5 star ladder matches involving The Hardyz, E&C and The Dudley Boys, no TLC, no Money In The Bank, etc etc.

Foley himself says in his book that the match against HBK at Mind Games was the best match in his career.

I think you have a point re: Savage vs Steamboat and its influence on the emphasis on workrate and match quality. I definitely give both of those guys credit for that. That match, along with the Flair vs Steamboat matches, definitely raised the bar.