Alexandria Ocasio Cortez - "Not All Dems Are The Same"

[AnonymityX1000]

I'm sure i can dig up studies that show if you have skin the game you will do better, but I would actually hope common sense here would prevail. Do you realistically believe that someone spending $30K doesn't have an incentive to do better than someone who is receiving it for free (all else being equal)? I'm not asking for stats or idealogy , I'm just asking if that makes common sense to you?

How often is the student actually putting up 30K tho? It's usually their parents or another relative. Or they qualify for grants, scholarships and loans which obscure the current cost for debt down the line.
And from my experience the people who were unsuccessful academically in college and got kicked out because of it were from every socio-economic background. It had nothing to do with who was paying, the main factor was how motivated they were to get the degree. It was very internal.

 

[Perfectson]

downside to Germany free education (college)

i'm just showing that common sense will always prevail and this article highlights exactly what is common sense to me

Germany proves tuition-free college is not a silver bullet for America’s education woes

he quality of the education is a concern in Germany as well. The shift to dependence on government funding, combined with the increase in enrollment, has also meant a 10% decline in spending per student in the last few years, the OECD reports. Today, German public schools spend about $16,895 per student, compared with $27,924 per student in the United States. Starved for funding, German universities are seldom near the top of international rankings.
German undergraduates, Gratz said, are stuck in lecture halls “with hundreds and hundreds of students.” PhD candidates, she said, do much of the instructing. The universities “say they do not have enough money for research. But they do not have enough money for teaching, either.”

Alt, the president of Freie Universität, agrees on this point.

“One disadvantage is that we lose one opportunity to enhance our financial support and budget situations,” said Alt, who spends much of his time vying for independent sources of funding such as international grants and corporate gifts. If the university could collect fees, he said, “We could invest much more and we could do much more.”

Woessmann, the University of Munich economist, agreed that “as a general rule, universities in Germany do have much fewer resources than at least the higher-level universities in the US. University presidents in general will always tell you they don’t have enough money, but in general I think they have a point there. If the universities were able to [impose] tuition fees, that would surely in general affect the quality.”

Those arguments have so far largely been eclipsed, however, by the power of the college-aged voting bloc. Unlike in the United States, where barely one in five college-aged Americans go to the polls, college students in Germany vote in huge numbers. “In the end, it was a political issue,” Alt said with a sigh. Candidates “could lose a campaign for charging fees.”

The Georgetown analysis projects that, under Clinton’s plan, a surge in applications to top public universities would make those schools much more selective, shutting out poor and non-white students. Those socioeconomically disadvantaged applicants would in turn land at already overburdened open-access regional public universities and community colleges with low success rates.

In Germany, low-income students can apply for grants and loans totaling around €650 a month ($580) to pay for living expenses. Since almost all students live off campus, this creates an unanticipated outcome: Even in a country where universities don’t charge tuition, students are still graduating with debt.

I can go on and on cuz there's much more.

I have several friends from NOrway and they are here (in cali) going to school. Why would they do that you ask? LOL

 

[storyteller]

I'm sure i can dig up studies that show if you have skin the game you will do better, but I would actually hope common sense here would prevail. Do you realistically believe that someone spending $30K doesn't have an incentive to do better than someone who is receiving it for free (all else being equal)? I'm not asking for stats or idealogy , I'm just asking if that makes common sense to you?

So ignore stats that would demonstrate the actual reality of the situation and just say what you feel? Why does someone need 30K dollars in the game when the incentive is a higher paying job with a degree regardless of how much you spend?

 

[Perfectson]

How often is the student actually putting up 30K tho? It's usually their parents or another relative. Or they qualify for grants, scholarships and loans which obscure the current cost for debt down the line.
And from my experience the people who were unsuccessful academically in college and got kicked out because of it were from every socio-economic background. It had nothing to do with who was paying, the main factor was how motivated they were to get the degree. It was very internal.

Okay you didn't answer my question but let's go your route.

THe main factor was how motivated they were to get the degree. I agree 100%. Money is always a top motivator whether it's yours or a parents. A parent isn't gonna let the kid go to school and mess around in most cases. Why make it free and further inuadate the system with unmotivated young adults the way we do highschool? If college was free and I'm a D student and I have nothing going for me, I might as well go to college. I'm applying, I'll be in your group, so when the teacher assigns teh group tasks to do , I won't meet the expectations of the group or teacher and you will suffer for it. How is it that remotely sensical to you?

 

[Perfectson]

So ignore stats that would demonstrate the actual reality of the situation and just say what you feel? Why does someone need 30K dollars in the game when the incentive is a higher paying job with a degree regardless of how much you spend?

i say ignore stats because they aren't in your/progressives favor and the ones that are are heavily skewed without any sort of qualification. Common sense says if I flip a quarter 100 times there's a 50% chance it will land on heads. However, there's someone who will say there's a higher probability to land on tails because they did a stat study and posted it as factual. So that's why I'm asking for common sense.

 

[storyteller]

i say ignore stats because they aren't in your/progressives favor and the ones that are are heavily skewed without any sort of qualification. Common sense says if I flip a quarter 100 times there's a 50% chance it will land on heads. However, there's someone who will say there's a higher probability to land on tails because they did a stat study and posted it as factual. So that's why I'm asking for common sense.

What's the data that draws a correlation between free college and students not trying as hard? I'm a pragmatist and willing to look at what you're seeing for sure...but common sense should also dictate that the outcome of graduating college is expected to be higher income which is the incentive for anyone enrolling regardless of how much they pay. Treating 30,000 dollars in debt as an incentive of some sort feels like nonsense to me, it's a pretty clear obstacle.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Okay you didn't answer my question but let's go your route.

THe main factor was how motivated they were to get the degree. I agree 100%. Money is always a top motivator whether it's yours or a parents. A parent isn't gonna let the kid go to school and mess around in most cases. Why make it free and further inuadate the system with unmotivated young adults the way we do highschool? If college was free and I'm a D student and I have nothing going for me, I might as well go to college. I'm applying, I'll be in your group, so when the teacher assigns teh group tasks to do , I won't meet the expectations of the group or teacher and you will suffer for it. How is it that remotely sensical to you?

I disagree that money is a top motivator especially if it is your parents money which is most cases.
And you're wrong. It's like the white American way to send your kids to school and keep sending them regardless of how they are doing.
Dude if you get Ds in HS you are going to a college with mostly other D students. And if you get Ds in college they kick you out. None of that will change if college is free.

 

[Perfectson]

I disagree that money is a top motivator especially if it is your parents money which is most cases.
And you're wrong. It's like the white American way to send your kids to school and keep sending them regardless of how they are doing.
Dude if you get Ds in HS you are going to a college with mostly other D students. And if you get Ds in college they kick you out. None of that will change if college is free.

Of course it will change that's exactly the issue, otherwise community colleges and vocational colleges would be over flowing with students now !

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Of course it will change that's exactly the issue, otherwise community colleges and vocational colleges would be over flowing with students now !

You know why they aren't overflowing now?
















They're not free!

 

[Perfectson]

What's the data that draws a correlation between free college and students not trying as hard? I'm a pragmatist and willing to look at what you're seeing for sure...but common sense should also dictate that the outcome of graduating college is expected to be higher income which is the incentive for anyone enrolling regardless of how much they pay.

But you still have D students in high school and dropouts those aren't incentives because you're giving people free run and know they have something free down the road , this continued habitual safety net doesn't Motivate and creates a helluva more problems then it resolved.

You're asking free education, why? Because of debt or for potentially higher paying jobs . Whjch free stuff are you trying to get out of it

 

[Perfectson]

You know why they aren't overflowing now?
















They're not free!

They aren't but they are more cost effective then universities! !

And some of them are free-ish but definitely not something that will put you into Hella debts

You're just stuck on free lunch.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I can't even interact with this fool anymore. Where did he come from?


He said that it's "100% wrong" that every Republican in the Congress/Senate is giving a green light to Trump.




He said that when rich kids graduate with a C- average it doesn't mean they weren't trying, they're just bad students...but these are the same kids he was caping for when I pointed out they were graduating college at higher rates than even the A students among the poor kids? And then he says he doesn't see how that is relevant?




He said that having your parents take care of your college is "personal" responsibility. So apparently if you grow up poor, then it is "personal" responsibility to take care of yourself, but if you grow up rich, it is your "personal" responsibility to benefit from your parents' wealth.




He said that I believed that no hard work was involved in me getting through college while QUOTING me saying that I worked my ass off.




He said that I believed no parental motivation was involved when I TOLD him that the fact both of my parents went to college was one of the main reasons I was able to go.




He literally said that damn near all poor people are lazy, and laughed.




He tried to associate free college with Nazi Germany.




He claims that the French economy is "in ruins" (6th largest economy in the world, current 2% growth rate) because of free college.




He said that Swedes and Norwegians leave in hordes to come to the USA for jobs when only about 1,000 of each immigrated to America last year, while 50% more Americans immigrated to Norway and Sweden!




He totally ignored Black-White wealth disparity.




He totally ignored that his claims of free college leading to loafing obviously don't apply to the very rich.




He said that anyone who doesn't get into college can work one of the menial jobs the illegal immigrants are doing.




When I pointed out that most Americans are forced to work bullshyt jobs that don't do any good for anyone, he pointed out that unemployment is at an all-time low.





Who is this guy even? Is this just an alias Napoleon set up cause he's desperate to interact with all of us who blocked him?

 

[AnonymityX1000]

They aren't but they are more cost effective then universities! !

And some of them are free-ish but definitely not something that will put you into Hella debts

You're just stuck on free lunch.

It's not free, everyone's taxes are paying.
Since you seem to be stuck on freeloading people and 'free stuff'. How do you feel about corporate subsidies, corporate bailouts and financial institutional quantitative easing?

 

[AnonymityX1000]

I can't even interact with this fool anymore. Where did he come from?


He said that it's "100% wrong" that every Republican in the Congress/Senate is giving a green light to Trump.




He said that when rich kids graduate with a C- average it doesn't mean they weren't trying, they're just bad students...but these are the same kids he was caping for when I pointed out they were graduating college at higher rates than even the A students among the poor kids? And then he says he doesn't see how that is relevant?




He said that having your parents take care of your college is "personal" responsibility. So apparently if you grow up poor, then it is "personal" responsibility to take care of yourself, but if you grow up rich, it is your "personal" responsibility to benefit from your parents' wealth.




He said that I believed that no hard work was involved in me getting through college while QUOTING me saying that I worked my ass off.




He said that I believed no parental motivation was involved when I TOLD him that the fact both of my parents went to college was one of the main reasons I was able to go.




He literally said that damn near all poor people are lazy, and laughed.




He tried to associate free college with Nazi Germany.




He claims that the French economy is "in ruins" (6th largest economy in the world, current 2% growth rate) because of free college.




He said that Swedes and Norwegians leave in hordes to come to the USA for jobs when only about 1,000 of each immigrated to America last year, while 50% more Americans immigrated to Norway and Sweden!




He totally ignored Black-White wealth disparity.




He totally ignored that his claims of free college leading to loafing obviously don't apply to the very rich.




He said that anyone who doesn't get into college can work one of the menial jobs the illegal immigrants are doing.




When I pointed out that most Americans are forced to work bullshyt jobs that don't do any good for anyone, he pointed out that unemployment is at an all-time low.





Who is this guy even? Is this just an alias Napoleon set up cause he's desperate to interact with all of us who blocked him?

He's taken the ideas of meritocracy and American exceptionalism to heart and believes it with every bone in his body. lol

 

[storyteller]

But you still have D students in high school and dropouts those aren't incentives because you're giving people free run and know they have something free down the road , this continued habitual safety net doesn't Motivate and creates a helluva more problems then it resolved.

This isn't a data point that demonstrates free schooling causes more laziness at all. It's an anecdote with the implication based on a Nirvana Fallacy. Because not every high school student gets good grades and some drop out, we're to assume that "free" is the problem? That's a reach. Yes, increasing the rate of students who attend college will inevitably lead to some dropping out and failing but I don't think it's safe to assume that the dropout rates will suddenly shoot through the roof (I'll repeat that I'm open to actual data that suggests otherwise).

Here's an example where opportunity and free schooling created an improvement for a community,
One Man’s Millions Turn a Community in Florida Around

You're asking free education, why? Because of debt or for potentially higher paying jobs . Whjch free stuff are you trying to get out of it

Again with the framing things poorly... First Cancelling debt will free up students to spend in places they haven't been (ie: the Housing Market) and that money in circulation can have benefits that outweigh the costs. Here's a study that showed potential benefits (conclusions on page 50).
http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf

In terms of higher paying jobs, There's no "free stuff" framing here, you tried to frame the massive debt as an incentive for students to work harder. I'm saying that the actual incentive is the opportunities afforded by attaining a degree (which equates to higher earnings over a lifetime). Use your common sense fam; what is the main reason that students are enrolling in college today? That's the actual incentive and it doesn't change if students are charged the cost of a car, a home or if it's free.