Africans accuse African Americans of "appropriating" their culture (legitimate criticism?)

[IllmaticDelta]

You do realize that Bob Marley biggest influences were African Americans groups, especially Curtis Mayfield's group. Right? Mayfield was literally Marley's biggest musical influence. There was even a Jamaican tribute album for made for Curtis Mayfield after his death.

The older Jamaican musicians always acknowledge their debt to Afram music



Listen to who the first artist mentioned is when Marley is asked about his biggest influences starting @ 1:00

 

[Premeditated]

Kiiiindaaa true ya'll. Some folks in this thread talking bad about Africans and Black foreigners, will be on some other thread about women of the African Diaspora in other countries(Nigeria, Brazil, Jamaica) talking about wifing them, and such. But I think no one is above reproach. MOST people in this thread who are being critical of Africans, actually respect Black foreigners, but feel they haven't been given that respect in turn. And you're right, there are plenty of AA's who are c00ns themselves. Hey, it goes both ways.

most of these people here aren't even in contact with Africans daily nor have ever stepped foot in Africa or left their own state b. They read what some introverted Africans say on message board and they think that's how all Africans feels. If I were to go by what I here AAs say on twitter or on social media or some message board, I would think they were Domincan Republic level off c00ns. But you see, I'm in contact with AAs everyday and I know that nots the entire case. Personally, I don't even care anymore. Whenever somebody accuses Africans of being the biggest c00ns with not enough bases, I'm just gonna you wanna do something about it.
I just gonna focus on me and my fam and try to get mines because life is too short to be making a big deal out of ridiculous shyt. I can be pro black on my own for all I care.

btw, Bob is way more famous in Africa than any non Africans artist

 

[Raptor]

And???? They are still BLACK!

And stop acting like West Africans are some monolithic entity when in fact different West African groups have different origins and are extremely diverse. So what do you mean as "unique"...

One thing i notice with many diaspora blacks whove never step foot in africa, is that they think that all africans have jet black skin. If you dont have Seals complexion, you must not be a real African

 

[Samori Toure]

The older Jamaican musicians always acknowledge their debt to Afram music



Listen to who the first artist mentioned is when Marley is asked about his biggest influences starting @ 1:00

Hell Bob just like everybody else. Curtis Mayfield was unbelievable. Check out this oldie but goodie from Curtis.

 

[Lost1]

How can his fanbase be limited when he was known all over? Older people around the world knew MJ since he was kid and Im sure the same held true in Africa. It's true most younger people probably only knew his Thriller to Dangerous era material.

Its not a generational thing

But if you know any older Africans wherever you are in the West you can ask them what they listened to growing up and share what they say

I feel like this is something a real survey or something would have to be carried out on to get better answers (not that it's important enough for that) because people who grew up in the west would just exaggerate his fanbase there while those of us who lived in Africa for years before moving to the West know that older people mostly weren't listening to that kind of music (r & b or pop) that much so theyd believe his fanbase wasn't that big especially with so many older people being clueless about most of his hits but the truth might lie in between the two extremes. . .only i suspect it would be much closer to what I'm describing than to what was said earlier

 

[IllmaticDelta]

EDIT: So really, in a way, African-American culture is the most influential "African" culture in the world precisely because it is not African. In fact, it's uniquely American.

All AfroNewWorlders have a unique creolized culture that came about from the clashing of africanisms against europeanisms that make them neither "African" or "European" but "Americas In origin". For example



Afro-European Fusion Dance in The New World


There are many of these type of dances in the new world than came out of the Afro-Latin-AfroAmerican-South American-West Indian peoples. For example even dances like Salsa or Rhumba have a European dance influence while having the improvisational, syncopations and body positioning of African influences.

Cuban Danzon

Cuban Danzon

Danzón was once called the official dance of Cuba. It is no longer an active musical form in Cuba, though it still survives in Mexico. Like the habanera, the danzón evolved from the contradanza. Originally, the contradanza was of English origin, and was evidently introduced to Cuba in the late 1700s by English visitors, Spanish colonists, and by French colonists fleeing the Haitian Revolution in the 1790s. In Cuba these dances were influenced by African rhythmic and dance styles, and so became a genuine fusion of European and African influences


The danzón developed in the second half of the 19th century, and has been an important root for Cuban music up to the present day. The precursors of danzón are the contradanza, and the habanera, which are creolized Cuban dance forms. The danzón was developed, according to one’s point of view, either by Manuel Saumell or by Miguel Faílde in Matanzas


The danzón, first stage

The contradanza, the danza and the habanera were sequence dances, in which all danced together a set of figures. The first use of the term danzón, which dates from the 1850s, is for just such a dance. Havana’s daily paper, El Triunfo, gave a description of this earlier danzón. It was a co-ordinated dance of figures performed by groups of Matanzas blacks. The dancers held the ends of colored ribbons, and carried flower-covered arches. The group twisted and entwined the ribbons to make pleasing patterns. This account can be corroborated by other references, for example, a traveler in Cuba noted in 1854 that black Cubans “do a kind of wreath dance, in which the whole company took part, amid innumerable artistic entanglements and disentanglements”.This style of danzón was performed at carnival comparsas by black groups: it is described that way before the late 1870s.


The interesting thing is that Faílde’s first danzóns were created for just such sequence dances. Faílde himself said “In Matanzas at this time there was a kind of square dance for twenty couples who carried arches and flowers. It was really a dance of figures (sequence dance), and its moves were adapted to the tempo of the habanera, which we took over for the danzón”


The danzón, second stage

The form of danzón created by Miguel Faílde in 1879 (Las alturas de Simpson), begins with an introduction (four bars) and paseo (four bars), which are repeated and followed by a 16-bar melody. The introduction and paseo again repeat before a second melody is played. The dancers do not dance during these sections: they choose partners, stroll onto the dance floor, and begin to dance at precisely the same moment: the fourth beat of bar four of the paseo, which has a distinctive percussion pattern that’s hard to miss. When the introduction is repeated the dancers stop, chat, flirt, greet their friends, and start again, right on time as the paseo finishes.

A later description after more Africanisms started taking over

Seen as scandalous
Similar to other dances in the Caribbean and Latin America, the danzón was initially regarded as scandalous, especially when it began to be danced by all classes of society. The slower rhythm of the danzón led to couples dancing closer, with sinuous movements of the hips and a lower centre of gravity. The author of a survey of prostitution in Havana devoted a whole chapter to the iniquities of dancing, and the danzón in particular.[13] Articles in newspapers and periodicals took up the theme:

"Because I love my country, it hurts me to see danzón at gatherings of decent people."[14]
"We recommend banning the danza and danzón because they are vestiges of Africa and should be replaced by essentially European dances such as the quadrille and rigadoon."[15]
Apparently, the danzón, which later became an insipid dance for older couples, was at first danced with "obscene movements" of the hips by young couples in close embrace, with bodies touching, and by couples who might come from different races...

"First we had the danza, then came the danzón... next it will be the rumba, and finally we'll all end up dancing ñáñigo!"[16]
So, behind the concern about music and dance were concerns about sexual licence, and about miscegenation, the mixing of races. As with other similar cases, the criticism was to no avail. The danzón became hugely popular, and was the dominant popular music in Cuba until the advent of the son in the 1920s. At length the Cuban government made Faílde the official inventor of the danzón – but not until 1960, by which time the danzón had become a relic, and its 'child', the chachachá, had taken over.[17]

Contradanza

The Cuban contradanza (also called contradanza criolla, danza or danza criolla) was a popular dance music genre of the 19th century.

Its origins dated back to the European contredanse, which was an internationally popular form of music and dance of the late 18th century. It was brought to Santiago de Cuba by French colonists fleeing the Haitian Revolution in the 1790s (Carpentier 2001:146). The earliest Cuban contradanza of which a record remains is "San Pascual Bailón," written in 1803 (Orovio 1981:118). This work shows the contradanza in its embryonic form, lacking characteristics that would later set it apart from the contredanse. The time signature is 2/4 with two sections of eight bars, repeated- AABB (Santos 1982).

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In America

African roots of Tap Dancing

Juba dance

The Juba dance or hambone, originally known as Pattin' Juba (Giouba, Haiti: Djouba), is a style of dance that involves stomping as well as slapping and patting the arms, legs, chest, and cheeks. "Pattin' Juba" would be used to keep time for other dances during a walkaround. A Juba Dance performance could include:

• • counter-clockwise turning, often with one leg raised
  • stomping and slapping
  • steps such as "the Jubal Jew," "Yaller Cat," "Pigeon Wing" and "Blow That Candle Out."

The dance traditionally ends with a step called "the Long Dog Scratch". Modern variations on the dance include Bo Diddley's "Bo Diddley Beat" and the step-shows of African American and Latino Greek organizations

History of the dance

The Juba dance was originally from West Africa. It became an African-American plantation dance that was performed by slaves during their gatherings when no rhythm instruments were allowed due to fear of secret codes hidden in the drumming. The sounds were also used just as Yoruba and Haitian talking drums were used to communicate.[2] The dance was performed in Dutch Guiana, the Caribbean, and the southern United States.[3]

Later in the mid-19th century, music and lyrics were added, and there were public performances of the dance. Its popularization may have indirectly influenced the development of modern Tap dance The most famous Juba dancer was William Henry Lane, or Master Juba, one of the first black performers in the United States. It was often danced in minstrel shows, and is mentioned in songs such as "Christy's New Song" and "Juba",[4] the latter by Nathaniel Dett.[5]

William Henry Lane is credited as one of the most influential figures in the creation of American tap dance. Lane developed a unique style of using his body as a musical instrument, blending African-derived syncopated rhythms with movements of the Irish jig and reel. Lane’s melding of these vernacular dance forms is recognizable today as the foundations of the ever-evolving style of American tap dance.

Free-born in Providence, Rhode Island around 1825, Lane began learning the Irish jig and reel from “Uncle” Jim Lowe, a dance hall and saloon performer in New York City. By the age of ten, Lane was performing in Paradise Square in the Five Points District of New York, where a high concentration of African American and Irish populations lived alongside each other. The vernacular dance forms of these two ethnic groups intermingled, providing Lane access to the different rhythmic and movement foundations that facilitated the development of his style of dance.

Lane’s original use of different areas of his feet to create rhythms, keep time, and improvise complex, syncopated rhythms was revolutionary for the 1840s. He used his heels to create the deeper tones of the bass drum, and the balls of his feet to layer softer, higher sounds. Keeping with African oral traditions, Lane incorporated singing and laughter into his performances, adding another layer to his rhythmic creations. Through these innovative combinations of rhythm, footwork, improvisation, and vocals, Lane created a blended style of African dance and British Isle folk dance still recognizable in modern times. Students studying tap in the 21st century can attribute the styles they learn to Lane.

Around 1840 Lane was hired by P.T. Barnum to perform at Barnum’s Museum and was billed as “Master Juba, the Dancing Wonder of the Age.” By 1846 Lane was touring New England and Europe with Pell’s Ethiopian Serenaders and received top billing as the only African American among a troupe of white performers who appeared on stage in blackface makeup (burnt cork), the traditional format for minstrel shows at the time.

William Henry Lane (1825 - 1852) was known as Master Juba and the "Juba dance," also known as "Pattin' Juba," was a mix of European Jig, Reel Steps, Clog and African Rhythms. It became popular around 1845. This was, some say, the creation of Tap in America as a theatrical art form and American Jazz dance.

MASTER JUBA


Tap dancing originated with African dancers in early America. When dancing, they would articulate rhythmic patterns through chugging, scooping, brushing and shuffling movements of the feet. These dancers came to be called Levee Dancers throughout the south. White performers copied many of these intricate steps and eventually the Shuffle Dance style found fame within the minstrel shows.

Although Irish Clooging and American Tap both feature precussive footwork, the dance don't have the same vocabulary. Tap dance is very syncopated and loose in a way that aligns with the syncopations of Jazz




Whereas, Clogging-Irish Step Dance is stiff-upright and lacks the syncopation

Tap Dance and Irish Clogging share deep roots.

Clog dances were often performed in wooden soled shoes. In Irish clog dancing, no thought is given to upper body movements. Almost rigid -- the shoulders and arms are kept motionless.




Reportedly, the most difficult of the Irish clogs are the Irish Jigs and Hornpipes. In some of these, the feet can tap the floor four or five times per second. Irish clog dancer, John "Jack" Diamond (1828 - 1850) was considered one of the greatest "Jig Dancers" of his day.

Modern tap dancing slowly evolved though the years 1900 to 1920.

Irish dancer - 1905

All About Tap Dance | TheatreDance.com

 

[Retired Account]

most of these people here aren't even in contact with Africans daily nor have ever stepped foot in Africa or left their own state b. They read what some introverted Africans say on message board and they think that's how all Africans feels. If I were to go by what I here AAs say on twitter or on social media or some message board, I would think they were Domincan Republic level off c00ns. But you see, I'm in contact with AAs everyday and I know that nots the entire case. Personally, I don't even care anymore. Whenever somebody accuses Africans of being the biggest c00ns with not enough bases, I'm just gonna you wanna do something about it.
I just gonna focus on me and my fam and try to get mines because life is too short to be making a big deal out of ridiculous shyt. I can be pro black on my own for all I care.

btw, Bob is way more famous in Africa than any non Africans artist

Dominicans aint bad

 

[Premeditated]

Dominicans aint bad

are you Domincan or something? Because only a Domincan would deny this.

 

[Retired Account]

are you Domincan or something? Because only a Domincan would deny this.

Nah

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Its not a generational thing

But if you know any older Africans wherever you are in the West you can ask them what they listened to growing up and share what they say

I feel like this is something a real survey or something would have to be carried out on to get better answers (not that it's important enough for that) because people who grew up in the west would just exaggerate his fanbase there while those of us who lived in Africa for years before moving to the West know that older people mostly weren't listening to that kind of music (r & b or pop) that much so theyd believe his fanbase wasn't that big especially with so many older people being clueless about most of his hits but the truth might lie in between the two extremes. . .only i suspect it would be much closer to what I'm describing than to what was said earlier

If you listen to African (Afro-Pop) popular music through the years it makes it easier to see just exactly what type of music they were listening to because it reflects in their music. There are many compilations out with the sounds they were making in the respective time periods

.......you don't just start making music of sounds foreign to your land w/o first hearing and listening to the root sources The music that became Afro-Pop was based on new World Black music's.

 

[Samori Toure]

most of these people here aren't even in contact with Africans daily nor have ever stepped foot in Africa or left their own state b. They read what some introverted Africans say on message board and they think that's how all Africans feels. If I were to go by what I here AAs say on twitter or on social media or some message board, I would think they were Domincan Republic level off c00ns. But you see, I'm in contact with AAs everyday and I know that nots the entire case. Personally, I don't even care anymore. Whenever somebody accuses Africans of being the biggest c00ns with not enough bases, I'm just gonna you wanna do something about it.
I just gonna focus on me and my fam and try to get mines because life is too short to be making a big deal out of ridiculous shyt. I can be pro black on my own for all I care.

btw, Bob is way more famous in Africa than any non Africans artist

The thing about new Africans to America is that they better get a reality check really quick and come up off that we the only nikka working and sending money home and going to college shyt. That is some stupid dumb shyt, because African Americans have been doing that same shyt since the 1800's when they founded a bunch of Historical Black Colleges. New Africans to this country don't even realize that this country had something called a great migration where millions of Black people moved from the agricultural Southern States to the industrial Northern States for work. Guess what those Black people who moved to the Northern States did? They worked in factories and other jobs and sent money back home to their families in the Southern USA. That shyt has went on for a long time, but new nikkas to the country don't know that.

You know what is really funny is that African Americans understand the story of immigrant Africans much better than you think. Hell our people used to be immigrant Africans; so we haven't forgotten. We were first immigrants to the USA and then we were immigrants within the USA; and we moved for work. The problem as I see it is that many immigrant Africans come here with White man notions about African Americans. Do you realize how grating it is to have some Nigerian nikka driving a cab in Chicago who is just trying to make it; say something stupid about African American in Chicago who are working and just trying to make it? And then having that same Nigerian nikka say something stupid like Akata about Black people in Chicago; but then he got mad at me for saying something stupid like Akata about Black people in Lagos? As if I don't know that Lagos is real shythole.

With that said I have met some really cool first generation Africans to the USA. I used to work with a dude from Cameroon that was real cool. One time we were talking about his family's (his wife and kids) upcoming trip back to Cameroon to visit his mother and father; and he showed me pictures of his village and extended family. I understood exactly what he was saying and I explained my family situation; that when I was a kid, how my mother and father used take me and my siblings back to Tennessee to visit our grandparents. I showed him pictures of our small home town and my extended family and dude knew right then that Africans and African Americans have the same situation. Our journey is the same, but some nikkas think that their journey is different; which is what is so silly.

 

[Lost1]

If you listen to African (Afro-Pop) popular music through the years it makes it easier to see just exactly what type of music they were listening to because it reflects in their music. There are many compilations out with the sounds they were making in the respective time periods

.......you don't just start making music of sounds foreign to your land w/o first hearing and listening to the root sources The music that became Afro-Pop was based on new World Black music's.

Have you listened to those compilation albums you're posting?

Because I've listened to two of them (Ghana Soundz and Nigeria Special) before and they are not pop or R & B by any means. Or did you not get what I was saying in my post? Mj's music is for the most part not the kind of music they were into

Angelique kidjo is my idea of pop in Africa for example though she has a lot of other musical styles she does

Ali farka toure, Youssou Ndour, Cardinal Rex Lawson, Joe Mensah or Nico Mbarga are not pop or R&b at all to me. I think we might have a different meaning by pop

 

[Poitier]

they are not pop or R & B by any means.

You African cats are delusional

 

[Lost1]

Illmaticdelta,

These are some songs from the Nigeria compilation you posted:










The last one which is one my favorites might be the one most palatable to you as a westerner but there are a few others on that compilation which have a more international appeal

But yeah like I said none of that is pop or R&b

 

[Poitier]

Dude just posted Blues music with African vocalist