A Wiseman Told Me Never Argue With Fools: Official 2021 Warriors Season Thread

[G.O.A.T Squad Spokesman]

For all of Ayton's offensive prowess (he's significantly more polished on offense than Wiseman is at the same age), he was legitimately one of the worst defensive bigs in his rookie season. The Suns were going through a rebuilding period that season too, so he had a longer leash, one that won't be afforded to someone like Wiseman.

Even if the Warriors do draft Wiseman, it's hard to see any scenario where he ends up playing a pivotal role with the spacing restrictions that Draymond and he will have in lineups. It's partly the reason why they're targetting versatile wings because they can't afford to have redundancy on the court with two players (Draymond + x-big man) who aren't reliable shooters. And it's why I like the potential fit of someone like Deni, because he's 6-10 and can shoot lights out. That's the type of player the Warriors need to make the most of their current window.

None of the scouting reports I've seen has him listed as a lights out shooter....he sounds more like Mike Dunleavy Jr....no thanks.

 

[BlaqkSpliffin]

For all of Ayton's offensive prowess (he's significantly more polished on offense than Wiseman is at the same age), he was legitimately one of the worst defensive bigs in his rookie season. The Suns were going through a rebuilding period that season too, so he had a longer leash, one that won't be afforded to someone like Wiseman.

Even if the Warriors do draft Wiseman, it's hard to see any scenario where he ends up playing a pivotal role with the spacing restrictions that Draymond and he will have in lineups. It's partly the reason why they're targetting versatile wings because they can't afford to have redundancy on the court with two players (Draymond + x-big man) who aren't reliable shooters. And it's why I like the potential fit of someone like Deni, because he's 6-10 and can shoot lights out. That's the type of player the Warriors need to make the most of their current window.

Deni does not shoot the lights out

He shoots below 35 percent from 3 and below 60 percent from the free throw line. He's not athletic, is a decent team defender, and only puts up good games in his conference games. In the actual euro league he's trash. He's closer to Mario Hezonja than Luka

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

None of the scouting reports I've seen has him listed as a lights out shooter....he sounds more like Mike Dunleavy Jr....no thanks.

Deni does not shoot the lights out

He shoots below 35 percent from 3 and below 60 percent from the free throw line. He's not athletic, is a decent team defender, and only puts up good games in his conference games. In the actual euro league he's trash. He's closer to Mario Hezonja than Luka

“I think a lot of guys who are not in the team or not in basketball don’t understand some things about the shot. The shot is not always about your technique. I think my technique is good. I just think that people don’t see the surroundings, so, people forget that I was young. I was going through a team with a lot of experience, with a lot of pressure, with a lot of fans every night. I played several kinds of minutes. Sometimes less, sometimes more, sometimes there’s more pressure. It was kind of ups and downs in the shot. I think towards the end I felt very comfortable in the team, and that’s the main reason why I think I shot better. I think my confidence raised, and I felt better. And the guys made me feel better. I can shoot. I’m a great shooter. ... If I couldn’t shoot, I wouldn’t shoot 3′s. But as long as I shoot, I’m confident, and I’m trying to make every shot I can.” - Avdija.


"Since the restart, Avdija has shot 44% from behind the arc on 4.1 attempts per game"

One thing you have to remember is that all these young cats in the Euroleague/IBSL get fluctuating, limited minutes, where they aren't getting consistent reps and looks where their percentages are reflective of their shooting abilities. Ever since he's been getting regular, significant minutes and playing more of a role this season he's been shooting lights out.

It remains to be seen if he can translate over to the NBA but he's the type of player that fits the Warriors identity more than someone like Wiseman does.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

And like I said earlier, at least be realistic/reasonable.

Y'all can't be throwing out these expectations of Wiseman being able to be a significant piece in the playoffs to combat someone like AD in his rookie season, and then turn around and say Avdija is a Dunleavy/Hezonja-type. At this stage, we're really none the wiser as to how either player will end up projecting to be.

 

[BlaqkSpliffin]

“I think a lot of guys who are not in the team or not in basketball don’t understand some things about the shot. The shot is not always about your technique. I think my technique is good. I just think that people don’t see the surroundings, so, people forget that I was young. I was going through a team with a lot of experience, with a lot of pressure, with a lot of fans every night. I played several kinds of minutes. Sometimes less, sometimes more, sometimes there’s more pressure. It was kind of ups and downs in the shot. I think towards the end I felt very comfortable in the team, and that’s the main reason why I think I shot better. I think my confidence raised, and I felt better. And the guys made me feel better. I can shoot. I’m a great shooter. ... If I couldn’t shoot, I wouldn’t shoot 3′s. But as long as I shoot, I’m confident, and I’m trying to make every shot I can.” - Avdija.


"Since the restart, Avdija has shot 44% from behind the arc on 4.1 attempts per game"

One thing you have to remember is that all these young cats in the Euroleague/IBSL get fluctuating, limited minutes, where they aren't getting consistent reps and looks where their percentages are reflective of their shooting abilities. Ever since he's been getting regular, significant minutes and playing more of a role this season he's been shooting lights out.

It remains to be seen if he can translate over to the NBA but he's the type of player that fits the Warriors identity more than someone like Wiseman does.

Deni Avdija, G/F, Israel

• Age: 19
• Height: 6-9
• Weight: 215
• Wingspan: 6-9
• 2019/20 stats: 26 G, 14.3 mpg, 4.0 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 1.2 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.2 bpg, 43.6 FG% (1.6/3.6), 27.7 3PT% (0.5/1.8), 55.6 FT%

Avdija is entering the league as perhaps the most hyped international prospect in this year's class, as he is poised to be the highest drafted player ever from the country of Israel. He's the size of a forward with the mobility of a guard whose speed really stands out in transition. He has the potential to become a multi-dimensional offensive threat at the next level if he can become a consistent outside shooter.

Avdija's biggest knock is the fact he had little to no success in the EuroLeague. He was on a stacked team, Maccabi Tel Aviv, but didn't produce in terms of volume or efficiency. The EuroLeague is the second-best in the world, only behind the NBA. But if he didn't make a major impact there, it's unlikely he will do so anytime soon in the States. Avdija has a lot of potential, it just may take a few years for him to start realizing it.

He does not project as a knock down perimeter shooter and his midrange game is almost non-existent. Avdija has decent mechanics and he’s a hard worker, but betting on major improvement from three is tough, especially when you factor in his free throw shooting.

Avdija hit just 58.8 percent from the stripe. Like the rest of his stats, the sample size is small and he needs to learn to play through contact better, but there is concern about his touch as a shooter outside of the key.

Defensively, he can block shots and pick up some steals, but he lacks elite lateral quickness and length. He might not be a sieve on the defensive end, but he also won’t be someone put on the opponents best offensive player.


The Warriors have max 5 roster spots open this season. They already drafted an international PF project who according to the beat writers wasn't gonna be drafted until the Warriors started talking about him. They liked him so much they would have drafted him in the 1st round. And now you wanna draft another project who probably won't contribute any time soon?


Are you on crack???

I'd rather take fukking Vassell or Okoro at 2 than Deni.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Are you on crack???

It seems you're the one on crack since none of that shyt you posted addresses the points of my post. You just looked up some generic scouting report and threw it at the wall to see what sticks. Especially since you're trying to emphasize this project state you believe he's in, when big men like Wiseman take longer to develop, especially ones who aren't polished offensively. You don't know how he or Wiseman will project to be, so there's no point talking in absolutes as if you can see into the future.

Vassell and Okoro are options too.

The point is, versatile wings are of more benefit to the Warriors structure and immediate success. A big man who can't shoot isn't.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

I'm the one on crack, yet this muh'fukka believes Wiseman can be the answer to AD come next postseason.

 

[LuckyLibra619]

I'm the one on crack, yet this muh'fukka believes Wiseman can be the answer to AD come next postseason.

Fam you the homie but this is a strawman argument. Who here has said Wiseman alone can be the answer to AD? Even if we draft Wiseman (Which seems like we are NOT going to do smh) we would still need to sign a veteran big man as well.

Okay yes he will be raw coming in but at the end of the day Wiseman has undeniable natural gifts that cannot be taught. And while he's developing just the Gravity from Steph and Klay alone is going to get him easy buckets. Also Draymond and Wiseman in the pick and roll should always lead to either Dray getting a floater for himself or Wiseman getting lobs for easy points.

If you roll with Wiseman/Chriss/Vet Center and you have Dray putting a few minutes at the 5 that is solid. The 5 spot is our only glaring weakness at the moment yet it appears the FO is going to ignore that to go draft Deni

 

[BlaqkSpliffin]

It seems you're the one on crack since none of that shyt you posted addresses the points of my post. You just looked up some generic scouting report and threw it at the wall to see what sticks. Especially since you're trying to emphasize this project state you believe he's in, when big men like Wiseman take longer to develop, especially ones who aren't polished offensively. You don't know how he or Wiseman will project to be, so there's no point talking in absolutes as if you can see into the future.

Vassell and Okoro are options too.

The point is, versatile wings are of more benefit to the Warriors structure and immediate success. A big man who can't shoot isn't.

So yes you are on crack.

First off, those are 2 different scouting reports merged into one. There are countless more which say the exact same thing. Half of international scouts don't even think he's the best prospect, they think Killian Hayes is because he's a 3 level scorer who actually produces stats and has legit NBA size. Avijda is only ahead of him because of Luka hype and the fact he's a wing despite the fact he's 6'9 with a 6'9 wingspan.

Second, I've gone in depth why James Wiseman is the obvious pick here. Again....

I'm gonna treat Wiseman as if he's a player coming straight out of high school because that's basically what he is.

Kevin Garnett: 6'11, 250, 5th pick in the 1995 NBA Draft (GSW picked Joe Smith number 1)

Senior year high school stats: 25.2 ppg/ 17.9 rpg/ 6.7 assists/ 6.5 bpg

Rookie year stats: 10.4 ppg/ 6.3 rpg/ 1.8 assists/ 1.6 bpg

2nd year: 17 ppg/ 8 rpg/ 3.1 assists/ 2.1 bpg


Dwight Howard: 6'10, 250, 1st pick in 2004 NBA Draft (GSW picked Andris Biedrins 11th)

Senior year high school stats: 25 ppg/ 18 rpg/ 8 bpg

Rookie year stats: 12 ppg/ 10 rpg/ 1.7 bpg

2nd year: 15.8 ppg/ 12.5 rpg/ 1.4 bpg


James Wiseman: 7'1, 240

Senior year high school stats: 25.8 ppg/ 14.8 rpg/ 5.5 bpg


Dwight and Wiseman were both Gatorade Player of the Year in their respective draft classes.

Players to win GPOY since 2002:

LeBron James 2x
Dwight Howard
Greg Oden 2x
Kevin Love
Jrue Holiday
Brandon Knight 2x
Bradley Beal
Jabari Parker
Andrew Wiggins
Karl Anthony-Towns
Ben Simmons
Jayson Tatum
Michael Porter Jr
RJ Barrett
James Wiseman
Emoni Bates

Big Men take longer to develop than wings? Let alone european players?

Notable European players selected in the top 20 since 2011:

Luka Doncic

Dragan Bender

Kristaps Porzingis

Mario Hezonja

Dante Exum

Evan Fournier

Jan Vesley

Jonas Valanciunas

Giannis Antetokounmpo


Luka was a two time MVP by 19 and a legit starter.

Kristaps is a 7 foot unicorn who can shoot

Giannis is a athletic freak who took years to develop

Evan Fournier took 3 years to really crack the rotation in Orlando and was drafted 20th

Most scouts projects Wiseman as a definite top 5 paint defender within 3 years and a 17/10 guy minimum if healthy. At his peak he's compared to David Robinson.

Deni at his peak will be lucky to Nic Batum or Hedo. Those are good players but they Warriors could get Batum next year when he's a free agent.

Like I said....picking the guy who was consensus number 1 coming out of high school, and who will athletically have an advantage over basically every player at his position outside of AD instead of wings with low upside who won't play heavy minutes anyway makes perfect sense.

Okoro and Edwards are the only players who make as much sense as Wiseman does.

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

Fam you the homie but this is a strawman argument. Who here has said Wiseman alone can be the answer to AD? Even if we draft Wiseman (Which seems like we are NOT going to do smh) we would still need to sign a veteran big man as well.

I can read between the lines.

Folks in here are talking about drafting Wiseman because it gives them that size needed to combat AD. That type of logic is completely absent of the fact that Wiseman is unlikely to be getting significant minutes in a playoff setting come next season, let alone get enough minutes and contribute to where he's a defining factor against AD. We don't even know how Wiseman will fare defending the PnR, let alone fast-forwarding to him being a piece of value in his rookie season against arguably the best big man in the league. Not only because he's 19, but because the Warriors won't be running with Draymond/Wiseman in the frontcourt for any definitive period in the playoffs.

If size is the issue here, looking to Wiseman isn't the answer.

Okay yes he will be raw coming in but at the end of the day Wiseman has undeniable natural gifts that cannot be taught. And while he's developing just the Gravity from Steph and Klay alone is going to get him easy buckets. Also Draymond and Wiseman in the pick and roll should always lead to either Dray getting a floater for himself or Wiseman getting lobs for easy points.

Let's just say for argument's sake that this ends up being the case - what benefit is this going to give the Warriors when it comes to putting themselves back into contender territory next season? We've seen the struggles of this team when you have two non-shooting threats, so waiting on Wiseman to develop into whatever he may become when the Warriors are in win-now mode isn't the best recipe for success. If this team was going through a rebuilding phase, and Draymond wasn't in the picture, drafting someone like Wiseman would probably be the obvious choice.

Just because there's the perception he's the best talent available, doesn't mean he's the best fit for this team as currently constructed.

 

[sidenikkagawd]

If we keeping the pick and Wiseman is available thats who we taking

IDK why bruh wasting his time

 

[BlaqkSpliffin]

The only players who can definitely help the Warriors next year are Okoro, LaMelo, Haliburton, Edwards, Wiseman, and probably Bey. Everybody else is 2 years away from really contributing.

Warriors played Pat McCaw in the Finals in 2017 as a rookie.

Kerr played Damian fukking Jones in a the playoffs off an injury when he had barely played all year.

Kerr played Festus Ezeli and Anderson Varejao extended minutes is a Game 7 in the Finals.

Kerr played JaVale McGee who was famous for Shaqtin a fool and being a low IQ player heavy minutes in the playoffs.

Zaza started games in the playoffs ffs.

The Lakers most likely will still run a 2-3 man big rotation with either AD/Javale/Cousins or AD/Javale/Dwight

Either way Wiseman could be decent against AD and pretty good eventually on Howard/Javale/Cousins.

I'm out

 

[Gil Scott-Heroin]

So yes you are on crack.

First off, those are 2 different scouting reports merged into one. There are countless more which say the exact same thing. Half of international scouts don't even think he's the best prospect, they think Killian Hayes is because he's a 3 level scorer who actually produces stats and has legit NBA size. Avijda is only ahead of him because of Luka hype and the fact he's a wing despite the fact he's 6'9 with a 6'9 wingspan.

Killian is a 6-5 lead-guard creator, so it doesn't make much sense to use him as a reference point to draw parallels between how he and Avidija rate as prospects, particularly as this concerns the Warriors, since guard creators are not high up on their priority list, whereas versatile, shooting wings are (someone like Avdija can moonlight as a stretch-4 and give the Warriors the necessary spacing, considering that Draymond is technically their most capable shooting big man and his shot has fallen off a cliff).

There's no exact science to scouting, and any standard scaling of how players project to be can't be used in evidence to how a player will turn out. The only thing that you can work on, is what makes the most sense for the direction your team is headed in, and hope for the best. I simply don't see how drafting Wiseman makes sense for the Warriors given their circumstances, regardless of how he rates as a standalone entity.

Drafting a versatile wing makes the most sense. Whether that be Avdija, Okoro, Vassell, Williams etc. Or whether that may be using that trade to bring in an already established wing or big man. Using the draft pick on a raw big man (who can only play the 5), who can't shoot, makes the least amount of sense.

Second, I've gone in depth why James Wiseman is the obvious pick here. Again....

I'm gonna treat Wiseman as if he's a player coming straight out of high school because that's basically what he is.

Kevin Garnett: 6'11, 250, 5th pick in the 1995 NBA Draft (GSW picked Joe Smith number 1)

Senior year high school stats: 25.2 ppg/ 17.9 rpg/ 6.7 assists/ 6.5 bpg

Rookie year stats: 10.4 ppg/ 6.3 rpg/ 1.8 assists/ 1.6 bpg

2nd year: 17 ppg/ 8 rpg/ 3.1 assists/ 2.1 bpg


Dwight Howard: 6'10, 250, 1st pick in 2004 NBA Draft (GSW picked Andris Biedrins 11th)

Senior year high school stats: 25 ppg/ 18 rpg/ 8 bpg

Rookie year stats: 12 ppg/ 10 rpg/ 1.7 bpg

2nd year: 15.8 ppg/ 12.5 rpg/ 1.4 bpg


James Wiseman: 7'1, 240

Senior year high school stats: 25.8 ppg/ 14.8 rpg/ 5.5 bpg

You call this going in-depth?



I call this throwing out a bunch of vague box score numbers that completely disregard relevant context. Nothing here is reflective of what kind of a player Wiseman projects to be. The landscape has changed from when Howard and KG first entered the league, where the value of the big man is now predicated on one's ability to space the floor and defend in space; just because Wiseman put up some #s through a sheer athletic/size advantage in HS doesn't mean that's going to be the translation for him at the NBA-level, especially as a fit for this Warriors squad in the immediate future.

And look, I'm not even counting him out as an option, because his upside is evident (in a perfect world of a rebuild, he'd be at the top of the list), I just have serious doubts over how he can contribute to winning for this squad in the now.

 

[LuckyLibra619]

If we keeping the pick and Wiseman is available thats who we taking

IDK why bruh wasting his time

Wiseman is the obvious choice but I'm convinced Myers and Co. are going to fukk this up

 

[BlaqkSpliffin]

JJ Redikk for the TPE

Loves Steph and Klay, can run the same sets, having 3 40 percent 3 point shooters would be deadly and he wants desperately to win a ring. I'd trade next years 1st for him