A Song of Ice & Fire by George R.R. Martin: Book Discussion Thread

Malik

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How y'all feel about this fan theory that Jon and Dany are twins :lupe:


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117682-are-jon-and-dani-twins-rljd/#entry6268972

The main reasons I am thinking that are:


A) Jon's und Dani's stories mirror each other throughout the books - GRRM seems to like a symmetry here.

B The title is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and Jon and Dani seem to represent these two elements

C) Alfie Allen supposedly said GRRM told him the question of Jon's parents involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation


Now I know there are counterveiling arguments. Especially the one that Dani's parentage seems to be totally clear and uncontroversial.


But: Is it really so clear? Or has GRRM successfully thrown smoke grenades to prevent us from asking that very question?


Things may be far less clear than we think:


- Do we know Dani's real age?


Not really. All we know is what Dani thinks is her age - and she's heard it from Viserys. The unreliable narrator in play. Even according to the official party line Jon and Dani aren't that far apart agewise. Less than a year. Someone may have faked the birth dates to put distance between Jon and Dani. As to who and why - I'll speculate further down.


- Do we know Dani's parents?


Same - not really. Again we only know what Dani has been told by Viserys (her first chapter on AGoT). Unreliable narrator. May be true - nor not. We haven't seen or heard a single real first-hand witness who can actually confirm that the official party line (Aerys and Rhaella as Dani's parents) is true. Its all second or third-hand reports. Everyone seems to just 'know' it - in other words have heard it and never questioned it, Dani herself included. All the people who might have witnessed Dani's actual birth are conveniently dead.


Now - if one questions the official party line there are some things that seem unlikely:


The official line goes as follows: Dani is supposed to be the daughter of king Aerys II and queen Rhaella and born nine months after Rhaella's flight from King's Landing where Rhaella supposedly got raped by Aerys on the night of her departure. Rhaella wasn't visibly pregnant when fleeing King's Landing.


That leads us to conclude: No one has witnessed Rhaella being pregnant in KL - since she didn't look that way when she fled. And all witnesses who might have seen Rhaella on Dragonstone are safely dead.

And: We are to believe that Aerys managed to impregnate his wife on the very night of her flight from KL. Is that possible? Well, yes. But likely? I would say not very. Also consider Rhaella's age: According to the wiki Rhaella was born between 235 AC and 246 AC. Dany supposedly was born in 284 AC. So Aerys supposedly impregnated Rhaella in 283 or so AC when she was between 37 and 48 years of age. Now that's not impossible either - but again - not so likely. And with supposedly just one 'try' (that rape). Women at 37 already aren't as fertile as in younger years. Not to speak of 48 ... And according to the wiki Viserys was 9 or 10 years older than Daenerys. So we are to believe that Aerys who hadn't managed to have another child with Rhaella for near ten years - on the very night of Rhaella's departure - and with Rhaella in her late fertile years (at best) - suddenly manages to?

I don't know. To me that sounds fishy.


So - I think the question of Dani's parentage is less clear than one might assume and the possibility of her being Jon's twin is at least theoretically there.


That doesn't mean its actually the case of course.


However I would like to point out that there are some hints that may make this scenario a little more likely:


- First we have A), B and C) above. Jon and Dani as twins just would seem - geometrically fitting so to speak.

- Then we have Lyanna's 'bed of blood'. Yes, Lyanna could have died giving birth to Jon alone. But if she had given birth to twins a death in childbed would have been even more possible.

- Furthermore we have Ned's shocked reaction in AGoT to any suggestion of sending assassins after Daenerys. Again I admit this could be explained by Ned's honorable personality and his background of having found Rhaegar's murdered children after the sack of KL - but then again - if Dani was Lyanna's daughter and covered by Ned's promise - then Ned's horrified reaction to the assassination plans would make even more sense.

- We have the Ashara Dayne riddle. Why did Ashara disappear after Ned's visit? I propose that this could be explained by Ned handing Dani to Ashara and asking her to keep her safe (or bring her to Dragonstone) while keeping Jon himself. Why would Ned keep Jon and not Dani? Because Dani looks like a Targ. Something a little hard to explain to Catelyn and whoever happens to look at Dani. Dani with her looks could not really have been passed as Ned's b*stard. Also 2 b*stards would have been a little hard to swallow for Catelyn.

- we have the blue rose theme: Lyanna is being associated with blue roses. Dani's vision in the HotU (Blue rose in a crack at the ice wall) seems to associate Jon with a blue rose AND the film series season 4 episode 2 has Daario give Dani a blue rose which seems to associate Dani with blue roses also.


Now the question why Dani's real parentage would be hidden and she being passed off as Aerys' and Rhaella's daughter can be answered too:


If Dani is Lyanna's daughter Ned could never admit that. First there is the promise to Lyanna (whateever it may have been). And then there is the fact that Robert Baratheon was a fanatical Targ hater and Dani's survival (exactly like Jon's) would have been highly doubtful had Robert heard that she was Rhaegar's daughter. By the same token Ned if he defended her (or Jon) would have been in danger of being branded a traitor. So new identities had to be found for both kids.


So I propose:


- Ned found Lyanna with two babies - boy and girl

- The boy looked like a Stark, the girl like a Targ

- Ned couldn't pass the Targ off as his own child so handed her off to Ashara. Also Ned couldn't bring Cat two b*stards so had to pass one on.

- Ned took the Stark along and claimed him as his b*stard son

- Ashara somehow brought the girl baby to Dragonstone

- Rhaella and Ashara came up with the cover story of the girl being Rhaella's daughter and told that to Viserys. That provided house Targaryen with a new princess which was a nice thing to have.

Alternatively Viserys came up with that story because it placed him before Dani in the order of succession

- Rhaella somehow died - or not

- in the future Dany and Jon may meet in the Lands of Always Winter and together bring the White Walkers down


Thank you for reading!
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MidniteJay

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Welp, I think Jaime a dead man this season. He gon' get the head chop like Arys Oakheart.
 
tjwettem

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FromBillionsCameOne said:
The Dunk and Egg novellas are dope as hell. I enjoyed them almost even more than ASOIAF. I'ma have to go and get that World of Ice and Fire when it drops.
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I went and found these after i saw this post and I've already finished the first two. Its too bad there aren't more novellas like this to put out in between the books. It would make the wait in between a little easier.
 
T-K-G

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TheStoicGhost said:


Welp, I think Jaime a dead man this season. He gon' get the head chop like Arys Oakheart.
Click to expand...

:what: why tho


has there been any other show that changed shyt for seemingly no reason at all as much as this show?


edit: i just realized they're prolly gonna have Jaime stay in King's Landing so viewers won't have to deal with seeing Cersei be a dumbass by herself, prolly gonna add a few incest innuendo's for kicks as well :snoop:

they may as well shake shyt up in Meereen too cuz lord knows NOBODY wants to deal with a 2nd season of Dany's delusions :camby:

i hope they cut the scenes for those two plotlines short so we can get more Ironborn/Arya/Jon screentime but HBO loves to pander...
 
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Adam3000

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T-K-G said:
:what: why tho


has there been any other show that changed shyt for seemingly no reason at all as much as this show?


edit: i just realized they're prolly gonna have Jaime stay in King's Landing so viewers won't have to deal with seeing Cersei be a dumbass by herself, prolly gonna add a few incest innuendo's for kicks as well :snoop:

they may as well shake shyt up in Meereen too cuz lord knows NOBODY wants to deal with a 2nd season of Dany's delusions :camby:

i hope they cut the scenes for those two plotlines short so we can get more Ironborn/Arya/Jon screentime but HBO loves to pander...
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Nope, he is

going to Dorne to fight Sand Snakes and get Myrcella. Him not wandering the Riverlands is no big deal to me, and id Stoneheart is cut he doesnt really need to be there. Gonna miss the Blackfish shyt though and gonna really miss Oakheart getting his head chopped off by Hotah
.
 
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