1998 = The Most Underrated Year In Hip-Hop History

[Wacky D]

THE ROYAL FAMILY OF 1998

 

[mobbinfms]

how am I being dismissive? when have I discredited or downplayed outkast?

everything you said to reject that bcc indie/internet statement can be applied to this paragraph on andre. like you said, people dressed weird years before andre and theyre certainly dressing weird YEARS afterwards. keywords: YEARS AFTERWARDS. when he and big gipp were running around dressing weird, nobody cared. there was no domino effect. but pharrell and his skater and preppie chit caused a domino effect. and kanye really caused a domino effect. the credit goes to those 2 for the rappers that dress weird today. and more importantly, this is nothing to brag about.

btw, what about busta rhymes. was he not dressing weird? or does he not count because he didn't look like a potential man-rape victim? just wondering for clarification.

back to BCC, I also mentioned all the influence that they had musically in REAL-TIME.

People didn't have to start dressing like weirdos the minute after they saw the Rosa Parks video for Dre to be influential. Influence can pop up years after the fact. Someone's gotta plant the seed.

Busta Rhymes is a great counter point to what I'm arguing. But, I think you'd agree with me, his zaniness just wasn't viewed in the same light as Dre. Busta was never viewed as being a weirdo in the same way Dre was. There may have been no rhyme or reason for it, but that was the perception. But like I said, Busta is a great example against my argument.

I think I've made my argument for why I think you're dismissive of Outkast.

For BCC - it's not about influence, you've gotta hold them to the same standard you do Outkast. You've gotta show how hip hop is different without them. I.e. without Enta Da Stage is Illmatic not made? The Infamous? OBFCL? Does Big never blow?

 

[bangbreh]

yeah back then....
quick, cocoa brovas, rawkus was poppin, moment of truth, dj honda, aquemini
man, them were the days

 

[infamousred]

i never saw the big deal about aquemini til this day, but looking back, it's dark and hell is hot was probably the best album of that year. if not, it's tied with soul survivor and 400 degreez. i couldn't ever shiit on 97 for the fact that cru released da dirty 30.

 

[Wacky D]

People didn't have to start dressing like weirdos the minute after they saw the Rosa Parks video for Dre to be influential. Influence can pop up years after the fact. Someone's gotta plant the seed.

Busta Rhymes is a great counter point to what I'm arguing. But, I think you'd agree with me, his zaniness just wasn't viewed in the same light as Dre. Busta was never viewed as being a weirdo in the same way Dre was. There may have been no rhyme or reason for it, but that was the perception. But like I said, Busta is a great example against my argument.

I think I've made my argument for why I think you're dismissive of Outkast.

For BCC - it's not about influence, you've gotta hold them to the same standard you do Outkast. You've gotta show how hip hop is different without them. I.e. without Enta Da Stage is Illmatic not made? The Infamous? OBFCL? Does Big never blow?

- nah. you didn't make an argument for me being dismissive of outkast. you've yet to post an example of me doing such.

- but you've already admitted that the seed was planted way back in the day. andre didn't plant anything. and he certainly didn't cause a domino effect.

- actually "enta da stage" definitely had influence on "infamous". definitely. "enta da stage" set that whole style off. thanks for adding to my point.

- now what classic albums were heavily influenced by outkast?

 

[Wacky D]

to ICE T

 

[mobbinfms]

- nah. you didn't make an argument for me being dismissive of outkast. you've yet to post an example of me doing such.

- but you've already admitted that the seed was planted way back in the day. andre didn't plant anything. and he certainly didn't cause a domino effect.

- actually "enta da stage" definitely had influence on "infamous". definitely. "enta da stage" set that whole style off. thanks for adding to my point.

- now what classic albums were heavily influenced by outkast?

Well, first you tried to argue that they were a "niche" group, as if they only sold to European homosexual bicyclists (not that there's anything wrong with European homosexual bicyclists - but that description seems to be pretty non-hip-hop...hell, I'd bet that's who wrote for the Source in the early 90s!). Then you argued that their numbers were "empty" because they only sold to this niche bicyclist market and had no impact on the core hip-hop audience. Then there was the thing about them not being Scarface and thus not a factor. I'm going off memory here...so if I'm slightly misquoting you its not malicious.

Also - there was a thread months back where we got into this issue and I recall you being dismissive at that time as well.

Yes, the late 80s and very early 90s was a much freer time for hip-hop artists. But by say 93, afrocentricity was of the past, and rappers essentially adopted a similar fashion sense. That "keep it real" "rugged" presentation and ethos was prevalent for years. Putting Busta to the side, the first major artist to go "weirdo" was Dre. That planted the seed. Although I'd agree with you that the guys we've been talking about (Kanye, Pharrell) were influenced by the Native Tongues as well. Honestly, this whole thing of tracking influences really isn't what I focus on. I'd bet that most newer Southern rappers would point to Dre as one of their primary influences, but I can't think of an album that directly followed in the footsteps of a Kast album.

Ease back Wacky - let's not going throwing stones at the greatest album in the history of music. Enta Da Stage was nice, real nice, but the Infamous exists with or without it. Mobb was on the same grimy tip back in 93 with the Juvenile Hell album. And as I recall, Havoc was more under the wing of guys like Extra P and Q-Tip (who obviously played a big role in the Infamous) then guys like Da Beatminerz. Although I know there was a connection btwn the Mobb and Black Moon and that "Lil' Hav" was on Enta Da Stage. If you've got some source from Hav or Tip saying that they modeled their production on Enta Da Stage I'd love to read it.

 

[mobbinfms]

i never saw the big deal about aquemini til this day, but looking back, it's dark and hell is hot was probably the best album of that year. if not, it's tied with soul survivor and 400 degreez. i couldn't ever shiit on 97 for the fact that cru released da dirty 30.

I made a 15 hour playlist of the best of 98 and I've been listening to it here and there over the past few days. The first thing I put on there was Moment of Truth and that album is just, how would @Wacky D put it? Flawlessy banging. There is not a single bad song on that album and the highs are just mindblowing. Capital Punishment was next and that had a few clunkers ("Punish Me" and "Carribean Connection") but is still amazing. I'm on It's Dark right now and it's pretty amazing as well but has its flaws ("Look Me In My Eyes").

 

[Wacky D]

Well, first you tried to argue that they were a "niche" group, as if they only sold to European homosexual bicyclists (not that there's anything wrong with European homosexual bicyclists - but that description seems to be pretty non-hip-hop...hell, I'd bet that's who wrote for the Source in the early 90s!). Then you argued that their numbers were "empty" because they only sold to this niche bicyclist market and had no impact on the core hip-hop audience. Then there was the thing about them not being Scarface and thus not a factor. I'm going off memory here...so if I'm slightly misquoting you its not malicious.

Also - there was a thread months back where we got into this issue and I recall you being dismissive at that time as well.

Yes, the late 80s and very early 90s was a much freer time for hip-hop artists. But by say 93, afrocentricity was of the past, and rappers essentially adopted a similar fashion sense. That "keep it real" "rugged" presentation and ethos was prevalent for years. Putting Busta to the side, the first major artist to go "weirdo" was Dre. That planted the seed. Although I'd agree with you that the guys we've been talking about (Kanye, Pharrell) were influenced by the Native Tongues as well. Honestly, this whole thing of tracking influences really isn't what I focus on. I'd bet that most newer Southern rappers would point to Dre as one of their primary influences, but I can't think of an album that directly followed in the footsteps of a Kast album.

Ease back Wacky - let's not going throwing stones at the greatest album in the history of music. Enta Da Stage was nice, real nice, but the Infamous exists with or without it. Mobb was on the same grimy tip back in 93 with the Juvenile Hell album. And as I recall, Havoc was more under the wing of guys like Extra P and Q-Tip (who obviously played a big role in the Infamous) then guys like Da Beatminerz. Although I know there was a connection btwn the Mobb and Black Moon and that "Lil' Hav" was on Enta Da Stage. If you've got some source from Hav or Tip saying that they modeled their production on Enta Da Stage I'd love to read it.

I cleaned up the niche comment pages ago. admittedly, it was a poor choice of words. I stand by the empty numbers and lack of impact comments tho. the scarface comment stems from the fact that people on here act as if they were some southern dons. so again, how am I being dismissive?

@ the thought of most southern artists being influenced by andre. youre desperately reaching for straws here.

the east coast as a whole was already on the grimey tip, but "enta da stage" is often seen as like the prequel to the infamous. I don't know if mobb deep ever spoke on that, but the proof is pretty much in the pudding. and regardless, BCC had influence on the east coast as a whole and their influence on the east is greater than the dungeon family's influence on the south.

 

[mobbinfms]

I cleaned up the niche comment pages ago. admittedly, it was a poor choice of words. I stand by the empty numbers and lack of impact comments tho. the scarface comment stems from the fact that people on here act as if they were some southern dons. so again, how am I being dismissive?

@ the thought of most southern artists being influenced by andre. youre desperately reaching for straws here.

the east coast as a whole was already on the grimey tip, but "enta da stage" is often seen as like the prequel to the infamous. I don't know if mobb deep ever spoke on that, but the proof is pretty much in the pudding. and regardless, BCC had influence on the east coast as a whole and their influence on the east is greater than the dungeon family's influence on the south.

You did admit that niche was the wrong word. But, since we've established that they sold to the southern base and the hip hop base, how exactly were their numbers empty? I mean, it's not like their first three albums sold 5x plat out the gate. I think the first did Plat and the second 1.5x plat. These weren't earth shattering numbers at the time, I wouldn't have expected them to have a Bone like splash.

Also, is their another group/rapper who so consistently challenged their fan base for artistic purposes? I mean album 2 was a dramatic departure from 1 and 3 was also a dramatic departure from number 2. Nas may have changed his sound from Illmatic to IWW, but that was done to soften the edges and sell some records.

Also, to the Southern dons comment, how many Southern groups you got ahead of them? Geto Boys, UGK, Ball and G? Who else? Can you name 5?

I've never heard anyone describe Enta Da Stage as the prequel to the Infamous. I would point to 36 and Illmatic as influential on The Infamous, but the Mobb surpassed all of those albums. You are just stating your opinion here - I need some objective primary source evidence if I'm to take these slanderous comments seriously. Same thing with BCC being influential on the East. You're just saying it. Give me some examples. Show me how history plays out differently without them.

 

[Wacky D]

THIS THE NO LIMIT PAGE.

YA HEARD ME???

 

[Wacky D]

You did admit that niche was the wrong word. But, since we've established that they sold to the southern base and the hip hop base, how exactly were their numbers empty? I mean, it's not like their first three albums sold 5x plat out the gate. I think the first did Plat and the second 1.5x plat. These weren't earth shattering numbers at the time, I wouldn't have expected them to have a Bone like splash.

Also, is their another group/rapper who so consistently challenged their fan base for artistic purposes? I mean album 2 was a dramatic departure from 1 and 3 was also a dramatic departure from number 2. Nas may have changed his sound from Illmatic to IWW, but that was done to soften the edges and sell some records.

Also, to the Southern dons comment, how many Southern groups you got ahead of them? Geto Boys, UGK, Ball and G? Who else? Can you name 5?

I've never heard anyone describe Enta Da Stage as the prequel to the Infamous. I would point to 36 and Illmatic as influential on The Infamous, but the Mobb surpassed all of those albums. You are just stating your opinion here - I need some objective primary source evidence if I'm to take these slanderous comments seriously. Same thing with BCC being influential on the East. You're just saying it. Give me some examples. Show me how history plays out differently without them.

in other words, those sales were boosted by laface's r&b machine and surburban hippity-hoppers. especially aquemini and everything that came after it. but even before then, the sales were kinda empty in comparision to other platinum-selling acts. not saying that the 1st 2 didn't have impact but it gets overstated in hindsight.

actually yes. there were groups that did the same thing. bone thugs for one, since you just mentioned them. every release was completely different than the previous. other artists as well.

I have a south groups spinoff from the previous thread coming soon. so until then, i'll just say this much: those groups, as well as a handful of others had a greater influence & impact on the south than outkast. youre basically proving my point with every post.

I don't know, I bump mobb deep's music, but I don't follow their interviews and chit. im not saying anything new here tho. but yes, BCC certainly influenced the east coast in the '90s. that's not even up for debate. youre not from up here tho so you prolly never noticed.

 

[mobbinfms]

in other words, those sales were boosted by laface's r&b machine and surburban hippity-hoppers. especially aquemini and everything that came after it. but even before then, the sales were kinda empty in comparision to other platinum-selling acts. not saying that the 1st 2 didn't have impact but it gets overstated in hindsight.

actually yes. there were groups that did the same thing. bone thugs for one, since you just mentioned them. every release was completely different than the previous. other artists as well.

I have a south groups spinoff from the previous thread coming soon. so until then, i'll just say this much: those groups, as well as a handful of others had a greater influence & impact on the south than outkast. youre basically proving my point with every post.

I don't know, I bump mobb deep's music, but I don't follow their interviews and chit. im not saying anything new here tho. but yes, BCC certainly influenced the east coast in the '90s. that's not even up for debate. youre not from up here tho so you prolly never noticed.

Are we talking suburban hip hop fans or suburbanites who don't know shyt about hip hop? Two very different categories. Also, do you have a source for the sales demographics?

How did Bone change from the EP to e99?

That thread is gonna result in pandemonium when Outkast is ranked 27 behind the Ying Yang Twins.

I agree there's nothing to debate because you haven't made any points to back up your claim.

 

[Art Barr]

Well, first you tried to argue that they were a "niche" group, as if they only sold to European homosexual bicyclists (not that there's anything wrong with European homosexual bicyclists - but that description seems to be pretty non-hip-hop...hell, I'd bet that's who wrote for the Source in the early 90s!). Then you argued that their numbers were "empty" because they only sold to this niche bicyclist market and had no impact on the core hip-hop audience. Then there was the thing about them not being Scarface and thus not a factor. I'm going off memory here...so if I'm slightly misquoting you its not malicious.

Also - there was a thread months back where we got into this issue and I recall you being dismissive at that time as well.

Yes, the late 80s and very early 90s was a much freer time for hip-hop artists. But by say 93, afrocentricity was of the past, and rappers essentially adopted a similar fashion sense. That "keep it real" "rugged" presentation and ethos was prevalent for years. Putting Busta to the side, the first major artist to go "weirdo" was Dre. That planted the seed. Although I'd agree with you that the guys we've been talking about (Kanye, Pharrell) were influenced by the Native Tongues as well. Honestly, this whole thing of tracking influences really isn't what I focus on. I'd bet that most newer Southern rappers would point to Dre as one of their primary influences, but I can't think of an album that directly followed in the footsteps of a Kast album.

Ease back Wacky - let's not going throwing stones at the greatest album in the history of music. Enta Da Stage was nice, real nice, but the Infamous exists with or without it. Mobb was on the same grimy tip back in 93 with the Juvenile Hell album. And as I recall, Havoc was more under the wing of guys like Extra P and Q-Tip (who obviously played a big role in the Infamous) then guys like Da Beatminerz. Although I know there was a connection btwn the Mobb and Black Moon and that "Lil' Hav" was on Enta Da Stage. If you've got some source from Hav or Tip saying that they modeled their production on Enta Da Stage I'd love to read it.

havoc was a fixture in the enta da stage sessions.
If you check the jcard notes if I remember right.
Havoc is mentioned there as well.


Art Barr

 

[Big Mel]

^^^^^NOT ONLY THAT!!!! BUT HAVOC MERKED HIS VERSE ON ENTA DA STAGE!!!!!