10 Years Later, Is Dark Knight Still The Best?

[Dr. Narcisse]

Also needs a third act on the level of dark knight. it's third act is good but it's not holding a candle to the last bits with batman, dent, and gordon

Eh...

I think the 3rd act is the weak spot for TDK. Granted its much better than BP's 3rd act in execution. However, the rushed Dent story line...



I think BP's sequel needs to offer up some stronger visuals as well. It was great, but we need Creed level cinematography from Coogler and crew.

We also need to discuss how having Infinity War after BP undercut its true potential. Had to wrap things up neatly at the end of the movie (still great execution there, but it could have been more awe inspiring if we didn't have to get to IW)

 

[MartyMcFly]

Eh...

I think the 3rd act is the weak spot for TDK. Granted its much better than BP's 3rd act in execution. However, the rushed Dent story line...



I think BP's sequel needs to offer up some stronger visuals as well. It was great, but we need Creed level cinematography from Coogler and crew.

We also need to discuss how having Infinity War after BP undercut its true potential. Had to wrap things up neatly at the end of the movie (still great execution there, but it could have been more awe inspiring if we didn't have to get to IW)

I don't think that shyt is rushed at all. Harvey is going down that path from the beginning of the movie. He's shown to be a bit of a live wire by taking the man's gun in court and punching him in the face. Then when when he is interrogating Schiff, he gets upset at Batman turning himself in and is already willing to "play a game of chance." Killing Rachel was the extra push he needed to get there.

So everything that happens once he's Two Face was already there: his temper, his willingness to go to any length for justice, his bitterness towards Gotham PD, and his bitterness towards the system. Which makes him holding Gordon's family hostage have that much more of emotional impact on everyone involved. The three of them made a decision to go outside the law to go after the mob and that's what it cost them. I don't see that as rushed in the least bit.

And I don't blame Infinity War for that. I don't think the Black Panther was undercut at all. It suffered the same third issue a lot of comic book movies do: Rather than having it be solely focused on the characters involved, they become CGI fest and a big battle with the world (or their part of the world) at stake. That doesn't mean its themes didn't come through, but there's a lot of noise around that message.

How do you feel it's undercut?

 

[Atsym Sknyfs]

I don't think that shyt is rushed at all. Harvey is going down that path from the beginning of the movie. He's shown to be a bit of a live wire by taking the man's gun in court and punching him in the face. Then when when he is interrogating Schiff, he gets upset at Batman turning himself in and is already willing to "play a game of chance." Killing Rachel was the extra push he needed to get there.

So everything that happens once he's Two Face was already there: his temper, his willingness to go to any length for justice, his bitterness towards Gotham PD, and his bitterness towards the system. Which makes him holding Gordon's family hostage have that much more of emotional impact on everyone involved. The three of them made a decision to go outside the law to go after the mob and that's what it cost them. I don't see that as rushed in the least bit.

And I don't blame Infinity War for that. I don't think the Black Panther was undercut at all. It suffered the same third issue a lot of comic book movies do: Rather than having it be solely focused on the characters involved, they become CGI fest and a big battle with the world (or their part of the world) at stake. That doesn't mean its themes didn't come through, but there's a lot of noise around that message.

How do you feel it's undercut?

a lot of people feel the two face was rushed because of the physical ... but emotionally he was there since the movie started.. once he pulled the gun in court you knew he was off his rocker...

 

[MartyMcFly]

a lot of people feel the two face was rushed because of the physical ... but emotionally he was there since the movie started.. once he pulled the gun in court you knew he was off his rocker...

Pretty much. Pulled the gun and punched a witness in court as the city's DA no less Dude was already gone. And he had a grudge with Gordon for hiring people he knew were dirty.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

I don't think that shyt is rushed at all. Harvey is going down that path from the beginning of the movie. He's shown to be a bit of a live wire by taking the man's gun in court and punching him in the face. Then when when he is interrogating Schiff, he gets upset at Batman turning himself in and is already willing to "play a game of chance." Killing Rachel was the extra push he needed to get there.

So everything that happens once he's Two Face was already there: his temper, his willingness to go to any length for justice, his bitterness towards Gotham PD, and his bitterness towards the system. Which makes him holding Gordon's family hostage have that much more of emotional impact on everyone involved. The three of them made a decision to go outside the law to go after the mob and that's what it cost them. I don't see that as rushed in the least bit.

And I don't blame Infinity War for that. I don't think the Black Panther was undercut at all. It suffered the same third issue a lot of comic book movies do: Rather than having it be solely focused on the characters involved, they become CGI fest and a big battle with the world (or their part of the world) at stake. That doesn't mean its themes didn't come through, but there's a lot of noise around that message.

How do you feel it's undercut?

I think the payoff fit the story, but it seemed like they were setting up something better.

Gordon's line helped really save it for me. Again just my opinion cause I really thought it setting up something else. Dent stuff at the end just highlights how incompetent Nolan makes the Gotham police in that movie as well.


I think there is an ending to BP that doesn't feel as tidy. As much as I just complained about TDK's ending it at least left things up in the air. You're thinking damn Batman is really bout to take the blame, what happens with the Joker, etc etc

Imagine if in BP the weapons STILL got out. Killmonger told TChalla that this was their 2nd or 3rd shipment and there are weapons all around the world with black people possessing them. It actually mirrors the ferry boat scene in TDK (but ends on that note in a way) where its out of the hero's hands on what the people decide to do. Imagine Wakanda stepping into the spotlight but informing the world that weapons are throughout the world and we're here to help prevent an uprising. Imagine TChalla doing his press conference, but blacks with the weapons Killmonger helped put in their hands really listen to his message. A message he has to be on point with for to even decide not using them. Just sets up for something even more powerful and less clean imo.

I think with IW next (the MCU as a whole) you couldn't really let Killmonger win like Joker the "won". Yea TChalla's opinion changed, but he ultimately just started doing what Nakia was saying all along. Them weapons getting out and the world being put on notice

 

[Tetsuo]

I never thought it was the best to begin with.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I think the payoff fit the story, but it seemed like they were a

Gordon's line helped really save it for me. Again just my opinion cause I really thought it setting up something else. Dent stuff at the end just highlights how incompetent Nolan makes the Gotham police in that movie as well.


I think there is an ending to BP that doesn't feel as tidy. As much as I just complained about TDK's ending it at least left things up in the air. You're thinking damn Batman is really bout to take the blame, what happens with the Joker, etc etc

Imagine if in BP the weapons STILL got out. Killmonger told TChalla that this was their 2nd or 3rd shipment and there are weapons all around the world with black people possessing them. It actually mirrors the ferry boat scene in TDK (but ends on that note in a way) where its out of the hero's hands on what the people decide to do. Imagine Wakanda stepping into the spotlight but informing the world that weapons are throughout the world and we're here to help prevent an uprising. Just sets up for something even more powerful and less clean imo.

I think with IW next (the MCU as a whole) you couldn't really let Killmonger win like Joker the "won". Yea TChalla's opinion changed, but he ultimately just started doing what Nakia was saying all along. Them weapons getting out and the world being put on notice

Is that infinity war's fault or is that Marvel? They like to tidy things up. Even infinity war is just one half of one movie, despite what they say about them being two separate movies. That would've been a dope ending but that's not how they normally do things. Even Civil War ends on a hopeful note when it would've worked better without Tony and cap both leaving the line of communication open after their horrible fallout.

 

[Ghost Utmost]

You really don’t think there’s anything remotely clever or interesting about that movie? That it has nothing deeper to say about the world in 2008?

Infinity war is dope. But just as a movie it’s dependent on another movie. It’s one half of a story. Dark knight is a full story on its own. Self contained. Beginning middle and end.

except it was set up by its prequel and.was followed up with a sequel

Which was actually the end of that story, not TDK

No movie ever has given me the feels like IW

I was ready to cry over Spidey

I have seen TDK a few times. Its just run of the mill crazy person running amok with no motive

Its not bad, its just not even.close.to the best CBM. I ha e maybe 10 movies that grabbed me harder than TDK

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Is that infinity war's fault or is that Marvel? They like to tidy things up. Even infinity war is just one half of one movie, despite what they say about them being two separate movies. That would've been a dope ending but that's not how they normally do things. Even Civil War ends on a hopeful note when it would've worked better without Tony and cap both leaving the line of communication open after their horrible fallout.

I think Civil War suffers from the same issue. Primarily because you have to get to Infinity War.

As some reviews put it, it seemed like Black Panther was about to do something different and blow up everything.....but then they pulled back.

Which makes sense for Marvel because Infinity War was the movie they wanted to truly blow up everything.

 

[MartyMcFly]

except it was set up by its prequel and.was followed up with a sequel

Which was actually the end of that story, not TDK

No movie ever has given me the feels like IW

I was ready to cry over Spidey

I have seen TDK a few times. Its just run of the mill crazy person running amok with no motive

Its not bad, its just not even.close.to the best CBM. I ha e maybe 10 movies that grabbed me harder than TDK

I disagree breh. I love spider-man probably more than anyone here and that shyt didn't do anything for me Whereas homecoming did make me cry at moments.

Dark Knight works on so many levels that Infinity War isn't trying to work on, which is perfectly fine. Not all flicks are created equally.

And you can see Dark Knight without seeing Batman Begins or Dark Knight Rises; its not dependent on those movies for its story. It works as the middle chapter of three movies but also works on its own as an individual story, which is the sign of a dope ass flick.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I think Civil War suffers from the same issue. Primarily because you have to get to Infinity War.

As some reviews put it, it seemed like Black Panther was about to do something different and blow up everything.....but then they pulled back.

Which makes sense for Marvel because Infinity War was the movie they wanted to truly blow up everything.

That's true but that's what you deal with when you're not telling self contained stories. On one hand it works but on the other it doesn't. And Disney as a whole doesn't really do that kind of ending. Infinity War is different because it's part 1 with part 2 coming in four months. There's no way they'd do cliffhanger to black panther with the sequel not coming until 2021 at the earliest.

We're saying the same thing just putting different root causes on it I blame Marvel's formula, you're blaming infinity war. Tomato, tomato

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

That's true but that's what you deal with when you're not telling self contained stories. On one hand it works but on the other it doesn't. And Disney as a whole doesn't really do that kind of ending. Infinity War is different because it's part 1 with part 2 coming in four months. There's no way they'd do cliffhanger to black panther with the sequel not coming until 2021 at the earliest.

We're saying the same thing just putting different root causes on it I blame Marvel's formula, you're blaming infinity war. Tomato, tomato

Fair or not, its part of whats keeping Black Panther from being the GOAT.

Marvel wanted BP to be just another successful Marvel entry.

Marvel also wanted IW to be the biggest movie ever and deliver on a 10 year payoff.

They got what they wanted. Its why IW is brought up more by fans to challenge TDK than BP.

 

[B!tchuoffendingme]

Stop it.

I wont. Man of Steel is a misunderstood classic.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

I wont. Man of Steel is a misunderstood classic.

Man of Steel is one of those movies that gets better with time.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Fair or not, its part of whats keeping Black Panther from being the GOAT.

Marvel wanted BP to be just another successful Marvel entry.

Marvel also wanted IW to be the biggest movie ever and deliver on a 10 year payoff.

They got what they wanted. Its why IW is brought up more fans to challenge TDK than BP.

I'd say I don't give a fukk what they bring up but I'm a malcontent, what do I know

I'm just saying for me, sticking the landing helps and the final CGI slugfest on a battlefield in Atlanta with another CGI fest underground on a green screen isn't going to be as powerful to me as Harvey Dent asking Gordon to pick which family member gets to die while he begs for their lives and batman tries to use caution and reason with a man who has lost everything and can't be reasoned with.

Even if Killmonger got his shyt off Wakanda and they'd have to deal with the ramifications of that, that wouldn't have changed the formula. It's why I love the third act of civil war because the final battle is just between three people and while there's CG involved, it's not to that level and you can feel how personal that shyt is and how ugly it could get and got. There's more emotion there and more shyt to genuinely grab me. The whole movie was building to that and it wasn't afraid to darken its heroes a bit. But then its negated with the cell phone and line of communication thing.

Dark Knight gets a lot of props from me for having its final "battle" truly just be three people having a very suspenseful conversation and a child's life being in danger