WSJ: Patrick Mahomes has kept an entire generation of Quarterbacks from winning a Superbowl.

[ORDER_66]

the pats were two separate dynasties. one from 01-04, the other from 14-18. they never won more than three in a six-year stretch either.

you cant take a break from being a dynasty for ten years and still have it be just the one dynasty the teams were completely different at that point

I mean sure... when you say it like that... but it still kind counts..

 

[KidJSoul]

That article is OD. Mahomes is certainly dominating the sport, but you can't give him credit for ending Luck's career, come on ...

The other thing the article should have mentioned is that all the great QBs in today's game, besides Dak and Goff, came in as starters after Mahomes, or lost significant time due to injury, or both:

•Herbert, 3 drafts after Mahomes;
•Stroud, only in his second year;
•Purdy, just finished only his 3rd season;
•Hurts, became a full-time starter in '21, Mahomes had already played in half his SBs by then;
•Mahomes beating the 2020 version of Baker Mayfield, come on now. That version of Baker wasn't an elite QB and nobody back then was like, "man he beat Baker"----->Baker just ascended to elite status last two years in TB;
•Burrow is three drafts after Mahomes and has had two injury years, and he's the only guy alive in The League today to have beaten him;
•Lamar lost two years to injury. In his four healthy seasons, one was his rookie year in which he didn't start until halfway thru----->and in his other 3 healthy seasons he's been MVP and only played Mahomes once;

Point being, this article is kinda dishonest. Most these guys have never played Mahomes more than once, are significantly younger than him, or have lost years to injury, or were late bloomers...

Mahomes to this point has been lifted with incredible health and being older in the game than all these guys. He's dominated from a winning standpoint, and his talent and production isn't lower than anyone else's, but almost everybody else has less time in the game than he's had. It won't last forever...

Exactly

And both Allen and Lamar were project QBs who were drafted after Mahomes, and forced to play earlier than expected in their rookie years (2018), taking over for teams who were still transitioning their rosters

Exactly.

I don't think there should be any question that the QB is the most important position in the NFL and has the biggest impact on a teams performance. However, QB's get all the credit and all the blame when there are ten other players out there on offense and eleven on defense.

When I was younger, I used to be the person posting about Brady v.s. Manning/Rodgers and posting all of the individual statistics and head to head match-ups, but when you look at the game objectively, it's a complete team effort. I've been very pro BeliGOAT for years now (not anti-Brady) as people just suck Brady off and don't give the rest of those teams the credit they deserve.

Mahomes has been sensational and I am going to guess he'll have another great playoff run with the Chiefs winning it all. With that said, it's a team game a matter of inches and little breaks here and there. He could have easily had two or three more losses this year, just like he could have another Super Bowl appearance and possible Super Bowl Championship if the Chiefs defense didn't line up offside.

Yeah I'm not even trying to discount Mahomes

I just don't think the "thus dude prevented everyone else from winning" argument is ever smart.

It doesn't even capture the truth

What made Brady great was how consistent he was for 20+ years despite the Patriots cycling receivers and offensive coordinators in and out for almost 2 decades. Peyton kept his OC Tom Moore for almost his entire time in Indy. Similarly, Sean Payton was an offensive minded head coach Brees got to enjoy his whole time in New Orleans.

Similarly, what makes Mahomes great was that he was ready to go in his first year as a starter and improved on his flaws each year in addition to his physical talent.


Reducing it to only qb wins actually sells Brady and Mahomes both short and makes it easier to prop up other guys who lost due to bad luck... instead of just pointing out what those QBs did better on a skill level.

 

[KidJSoul]

You mean 2020...

2019 was patriots vs rams bruh...

He's going by the year the season started, which is what the NFL does

Patriots rams was the 2018 season (although the super bowl took place in February 2019)

 

[Trojan 24]

You gotta win 5/6 to claim something like this, but he is on track sadly enough

 

[KidJSoul]

That MJ shyt is so corny. You cant just condense his career from 91-93, then 96-98. His first six years do count, as does the L to Orlando, as does the 2 years with the Wizards

Yeah


Not to mention competition plays a role

He came of age conveniently when the Lakers, pistons, and celtics best players were literally in their final seasons of their careers (seriously, a LOT of their major players retired between 1990 and 1993)

Even then, at least basketball is 5 on 5 where 1 player has an impact

 

[concise]

the pats were two separate dynasties. one from 01-04, the other from 14-18. they never won more than three in a six-year stretch either.

you cant take a break from being a dynasty for ten years and still have it be just the one dynasty the teams were completely different at that point

nah, just nah.

Teams in the NFL change every year as well, but they were still making Super Bowls and Conference Championships. Especially since this winds up leaving out the 2007 season

 

[ORDER_66]

He's going by the year the season started, which is what the NFL does

Patriots rams was the 2018 season (although the super bowl took place in February 2019)

Oh ok cause im reading the stats off espn and they just list the year and winners... i didnt know you go by seasons...

Super Bowl Winners by Year - ESPN

View a comprehensive list of every single NFL Super Bowl champion from 1967 to present on ESPN. Includes the finals opponent, site of the game and the final result.

www.espn.com

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

nah, just nah.

Teams in the NFL change every year as well, but they were still making Super Bowls and Conference Championships. Especially since this winds up leaving out the 2007 season

they didnt win in 07. why would that have been included?

i lived in massachusetts between 2007 and 2014 and people thought they had a great team that kept coming up short. not that they were in the midst of a dynasty

 

[broller]

You mean 2020...

2019 was patriots vs rams bruh...

Yeah played in that year but..
By convention the NFL years are listed by the year in which the NFL season started
It's why people call them "The '85 Bears" or "'72 Dolphins"

 

[broller]

The same season. The Finale was Miami, he didnt go all in, when a win gives them HFA over Denver.

Oh I thought they started and played all their guys

New England Patriots at Miami Dolphins - January 3rd, 2016 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

New England Patriots 10 at Miami Dolphins 20 on January 3rd, 2016 - Full team and player stats and box score

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[murksiderock]

Takes like this have always been dumb

If the Billls squib kick, 13 seconds doesn't happen

If Steffon Diggs catches that deep ball and Bass makes the field goal, etc..

Point is Mahomes is great but the margins have been close and he's not even outplaying Allen in their recent matchups


I think Brady is the GOAT but let's be real, even Brady didn't prevent other QBs from getting there's.

Peyton still had his chances before Brady and during Brady (2005, 2009, 2012, 2013)

He's outplayed Allen in 2/3 playoff games. The 13-second game is the one where Allen arguably outplayed Mahomes...

Overall though, you can only prevent people you beat h2h, and if it wasn't multiple times, are you really impeding them?

Like, I'd say Mahomes is a real roadblock for Allen. His team has won every game that mattered, and Mahomes outplayed him clearly in 2 of those 3 games...

But I wouldn't say Mahomes has prevented Burrow, Burrow's fatal flaws are injury and starting a season with urgency. The two times he made the playoffs, he ended Mahomes season once, Mahomes ended his another...

Lamar and Mahomes have only played once in the playoffs. To this point of their careers Mahomes has been more consistently healthy and available, so I wouldn't say he's kept Lamar from anything, either...

So on and so forth down the line of active quarterbacks...

Exactly

Cool Hand Eli stared in the devil's face twice without blinking.

Mahomes has already put together and all time great career. And is at his best when the situation calls for it. This season is a testament to his ability to win despite problems, injuries, etc.
Article is trying to frame him in a way that sports fans could understand, ie Jordan preventing other superstars from rings.

The Jordan shyt was bullshyt too, some of the names people credit him with stopping. He beat Malone twice in The Finals, but Malone had like another 13-14 years of his prime that he never ran into Mike. Malone was stopped from winning a title because he was a generational choker...

The thing about Mahomes, it's great that he's getting all this winning piled up early, because it gives the active QBs a standard to aspire to. Everybody's team isn't blessed with the infrastructure KC has. And while KC will likely always have elite executives and coaching for the duration of Mahomes' career, he's not going to always have the best roster (that's why last year was so impressive)....

And he's not gonna always have the best health of his contemporaries, and he likely won't always have highest skill. When his athleticism, or arm, starts declining, stuff like that...

And as these other guys age and grow more mature in their careers they'll present challenges younger versions of themselves couldn't...

 

[murksiderock]

I will say, the way the media has increasingly started talking about NFL quarterbacks like NBA stars like they single handedly decide games is nasty work

It’s always been there to a degree but over the last year or two feels like it’s been ratcheted up

In no sport does any one player singlehandedly decide the game...

But we've acknowledged the impact of great quarterbacks on the sport for quite awhile, now. Probably since at least, the Brady/Manning heyday. So that's going back two decades right there...

Great quarterbacks win games and they win em by the boatload. They also have signature playoff moments and, in most cases, win a Super Bowl. This doesn't mean they carry their teams singlehandedly. But the days of a team winning a Super Bowl without elite QB play seem to be long over, unless you literally have one of the greatest defenses in NFL history ('15 Broncos, '13 Hawks). If your defense isn't All-Time legendary, you gotta have elite QB play. There is no longer any middle ground---->that's why the QB wins thing matters so much...

That MJ shyt is so corny. You cant just condense his career from 91-93, then 96-98. His first six years do count, as does the L to Orlando, as does the 2 years with the Wizards

100,00%!!

 

[IsThatBrothaMouzone?]

QB's and "QB wins" have been the focal point for a while now, but I do agree its amped up in recent years. I think that's for a few reasons.

When Brady was in the league, you still had P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and Big Ben. All had won Super Bowls by 2011. They had all reached that mountain top. You had young QB's in the league like a Cam Newton and Luck, but that was it in terms of very hyped ones.

Now, you have Mahomes who is essentially today's Brady. The difference is that all of the other great/elite QB's (Or those looked at as real franchise QB's) in the league are relatively young and don't have any Super Bowl victories. You have Lamar, Allen, and Burrow. You can throw in Herbert, Hurts, Stroud, and Love as well. It's a perfect storm for that narrative and talking point.

We have different rules for each skill position on offense:

QB - judged off winning, postseason success and then stats as a tiebreaker

WR - mostly about stats/impact...winning and style are the tiebreakers.

RB - we don't judge them off stats, impact or winning...just raw talent and style. If we say who were the best overall at playing football (running, receiving, BLOCKING), it would be Walter and Emmitt as #1 and #2 without question.

Favre was more "fun" than Brady but no one would ever claim he was better because STATS and WINNING.

Most would say Rice >>> all WR's in history because of STATS AND WINNING.

 

[murksiderock]

The same season. The Finale was Miami, he didnt go all in, when a win gives them HFA over Denver.

I remember this! And then Von and them destroyed Brady in the AFC Championship. I think that game, is the most I ever saw Brady get hit. He got peppered but he also proved his toughness in that game...

the pats were two separate dynasties. one from 01-04, the other from 14-18. they never won more than three in a six-year stretch either.

you cant take a break from being a dynasty for ten years and still have it be just the one dynasty the teams were completely different at that point

I think if you're gonna split the Patriot dynasty you gotta go from 2001 thru 2007. The line of demarcation was Brady getting hurt W1 2008, and the Patriots going on a 4-year drought to get back to the Super Bowl...

I think you can start the second leg of their dynasty in 2011 when they went back to the Super Bowl, 2011 thru 2018. Most people don't remember the 4-year drought, so it's easy to combine both stretches as one dynasty. I get it...

Its kinda like how the Spurs are often credited as a 15-year dynasty, even though they themselves went 7 years between winning championships once...

Their actual dynasty was 1998-2008, '08 being last appearance in WCF for 4 years, 1998-99 season being their first championship. The Comeback Spurs of 2012-14 only won one title, so they weren't a dynasty, but that era gets included in the "Spurs dynasty"....

Yeah


Not to mention competition plays a role

He came of age conveniently when the Lakers, pistons, and celtics best players were literally in their final seasons of their careers (seriously, a LOT of their major players retired between 1990 and 1993)

Even then, at least basketball is 5 on 5 where 1 player has an impact

Great QBs do have an outsized impact, though. Agree with all else you said...

 

[Baka's Weird Case]

I think if you're gonna split the Patriot dynasty you gotta go from 2001 thru 2007. The line of demarcation was Brady getting hurt W1 2008, and the Patriots going on a 4-year drought to get back to the Super Bowl...

I think you can start the second leg of their dynasty in 2011 when they went back to the Super Bowl, 2011 thru 2018. Most people don't remember the 4-year drought, so it's easy to combine both stretches as one dynasty. I get it...

i was just selecting the dates based on when they were winning super bowls, i agree that the teams up through 2007 were more like the 01-04 teams. they still had a lot of the core defensive players like bruschi, vrabel, richard seymour, rodney harrison, wilfork, and some of the guys on the o line. then by 2011 theyve got gronk and some of the other guys who would be there for their second dynasty