Why won't muslims give jews their land back?

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The bolded is totally your opinion. It is not based on "legal expertise" and it is totally political. They are appointed judges who interpret laws and this has a political effect. Therefore they are politically motivated.

Um... Alright.

The Supreme Court is arguably not a politically motivated organization, but a legal one. The UN by contrast, is a political organization where the majority can bully the minority, and is thoroughly staffed with dictators from Islamic thugocracies. Clearly not an objective source of information.

The Geneva Convention says they shall not deport or transfer... DEPORT would indicate a forceful government sponsored program of mass movement. Transfer is more open ended. By implicitly and directly encouraging and protecting the settlements. IF a settlement is authorized by the Israeli government, then the government is obviously transferring people not as a matter of policy but as a matter of fact. They are authorizing the construction of homes for their citizens on land they have no authority on purely based on their occupation and that is why it is illegal.

Not really. Transfer is a verb. If the Israeli government is allowing, but not actively transferring people, then it is not violating international law. Israeli government can have "move to the settlements bro" as their slogan and they still would not be "transferring" anyone.

Even the original sponsor of the 4th convention agree. Furthermore, there is not a single Palestinian family living in the settlements save for a noteworthy Jewish convert. This is further evidence that it is in fact a government sanctioned program.

Since East Jerusalem is considered "settlement" to you fellas, you are pretty wrong. Lots of Arabs live in settlements.
 

Broke Wave

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Um... Alright.

The Supreme Court is arguably not a politically motivated organization, but a legal one. The UN by contrast, is a political organization where the majority can bully the minority, and is thoroughly staffed with dictators from Islamic thugocracies. Clearly not an objective source of information.



Not really. Transfer is a verb. If the Israeli government is allowing, but not actively transferring people, then it is not violating international law. Israeli government can have "move to the settlements bro" as their slogan and they still would not be "transferring" anyone.



Since East Jerusalem is considered "settlement" to you fellas, you are pretty wrong. Lots of Arabs live in settlements.

Ok well I'm going to ignore your diatribe against the U.N. there. I'm happy we agree about the Supreme Court, as you have now adopted my opinion.

Transfer is a verb but I don't think you understand how the Geneva Convention works. If Israeli soldiers were widespread raping and torturing Palestinian civilians every day and there was no law in Israel preventing it nor any law ordering it, Israel would still be in violation of the Geneva Convention. The idea of implicit consent is an old legal one and has been upheld every time.

Israeli soldiers are protecting the settlements which means the government is facilitating the transfer. There are no loopholes here. If you think Israel has a compelling case, why don't they go to the ICC and argue their case? Or make some compelling arguments at the U.N.? Is The Hague also a bastion of Islamic Thugocracy?
 

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Its amazing how people can :cape: for Israel, after all the international laws they have broken, and continue to break.
 
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Ok well I'm going to ignore your diatribe against the U.N. there.

An accurate description is not a diatribe. Understanding the nature of the UN is important to understand why your analogy is so flawed.

I'm happy we agree about the Supreme Court, as you have now adopted my opinion.

I don't think you read my post very well.

Transfer is a verb but I don't think you understand how the Geneva Convention works. If Israeli soldiers were widespread raping and torturing Palestinian civilians every day and there was no law in Israel preventing it nor any law ordering it, Israel would still be in violation of the Geneva Convention. The idea of implicit consent is an old legal one and has been upheld every time.

This analogy is flawed too. While raping and torturing is clearly illegal, moving into an area is not. Therefore implicit consent is irrelevant here too.

Israeli soldiers are protecting the settlements which means the government is facilitating the transfer.

Not at all. You are making this up. It only means that the government is concerned about human life. Also, the law states that the government must not transfer. As long as there is no force, there is no breaking of the law.

If you think Israel has a compelling case, why don't they go to the ICC and argue their case? Or make some compelling arguments at the U.N.? Is The Hague also a bastion of Islamic Thugocracy?

The UN? Israel is used to the UN completely ignoring its needs, which makes sense considering the anti-Israel bias at the UN is well documented and indicates the UN is the largest anti-Israel organization in the world.

And why would Israel present its case to the ICC? Do you mean ICJ?
 

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An accurate description is not a diatribe. Understanding the nature of the UN is important to understand why your analogy is so flawed.



I don't think you read my post very well.



This analogy is flawed too. While raping and torturing is clearly illegal, moving into an area is not. Therefore implicit consent is irrelevant here too.



Not at all. You are making this up. It only means that the government is concerned about human life. Also, the law states that the government must not transfer. As long as there is no force, there is no breaking of the law.



The UN? Israel is used to the UN completely ignoring its needs, which makes sense considering the anti-Israel bias at the UN is well documented and indicates the UN is the largest anti-Israel organization in the world.

And why would Israel present its case to the ICC? Do you mean ICJ?

Actually I read your post and you actually ended up agreeing with me. You should go back and read it.

Anyway to the substance, moving into an area is a nice way to paint what their doing. Moving into an area can consist of bulldozing the homes of the residents and colonizing the land, which is clearly illegal.

As far as forcible transfer vs transfer, the law itself makes the distinction.


Article 49(1) Geneva Convention

  • Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

That's the first stanza of the law, it clearly uses the phrase forcible transfers.

The part Israel violating is the 9th part.

Article 49(9) Geneva Convention

  • The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

So the legal distinction has clearly been made. If the law meant only forcible transfers, than they obviously would have specified it, because that's how laws work.

The voluntary nature of the persons being transferred does not matter. My analogy makes perfect sense. It is illegal to rape and torture in war but according to what? The Geneva Convention. you can't say it's just clearly illegal when you're denying the illegality of these settlements.

And yes I meant the ICJ, thanks for the correction. However my point on that stands, I would like to see Israel take this to the ICJ or any neutral international body and avoid using the veil of "everyone hates us" to avoid this.
 
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Actually I read your post and you actually ended up agreeing with me. You should go back and read it.

You said the Supreme Court is a political organization. I said it is arguably a legal one. Where is the agreement?

Anyway to the substance, moving into an area is a nice way to paint what their doing. Moving into an area can consist of bulldozing the homes of the residents and colonizing the land, which is clearly illegal.

Not when one party signed off the land to be under full of military and civil control of the other.

As far as forcible transfer vs transfer, the law itself makes the distinction.


Article 49(1) Geneva Convention


That's the first stanza of the law, it clearly uses the phrase forcible transfers.

The part Israel violating is the 9th part.

Article 49(9) Geneva Convention


So the legal distinction has clearly been made. If the law meant only forcible transfers, than they obviously would have specified it, because that's how laws work.

Not really.

The fact that it says deport or transfer indicates that we are discussing the transfer of someone against someone's will.

The voluntary nature of the persons being transferred does not matter.

Nobody is being transferred if they are moving on their own. If I move from NY to NJ or from NY to Mexico, the government has not transferred me.

My analogy makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't. The Supreme Court is not filled with judges who already have their mind made up about the defendants and plaintiffs of each case. The UN, definitely is; as is anything regarding international politics.

It is illegal to rape and torture in war but according to what? The Geneva Convention. you can't say it's just clearly illegal when you're denying the illegality of these settlements.

I don't see the connection between torture and rape and settlements. Transferring people into settlements is illegal, allowing them to move into settlements is not.

And yes I meant the ICJ, thanks for the correction. However my point on that stands, I would like to see Israel take this to the ICJ or any neutral international body and avoid using the veil of "everyone hates us" to avoid this.

Well, first of all, the notion that the ICJ is neutral is laughable. A bunch of judges (some from Muslim states) got together to discuss Israel. That's not going to result in an impartial discussion by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, the ICJ never investigated the legality of Israeli settlements. They discussed the legality of the security fence. The idea that the ICJ investigated the legality of the settlements is a regular talking points of the pro-Palestine camp, but it is clearly not the case. What the ICJ did do, is blindly accept the UN's notion that the settlements are illegal, which brings me to my next point.

Third - the ICJ responds based on background information provided from the UN in order to discuss particular situations. The background in of itself tends to be biased, especially in all cases regarding Israel as the UN continues to be the largest anti-Israel organization in the world.

Finally, even if the ICJ did investigate the legality of settlements, it was merely an advisory opinion, completely consultative in nature, and is not an official ruling.
 

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You said the Supreme Court is a political organization. I said it is arguably a legal one. Where is the agreement?



Not when one party signed off the land to be under full of military and civil control of the other.



Not really.

The fact that it says deport or transfer indicates that we are discussing the transfer of someone against someone's will.



Nobody is being transferred if they are moving on their own. If I move from NY to NJ or from NY to Mexico, the government has not transferred me.



No it doesn't. The Supreme Court is not filled with judges who already have their mind made up about the defendants and plaintiffs of each case. The UN, definitely is; as is anything regarding international politics.



I don't see the connection between torture and rape and settlements. Transferring people into settlements is illegal, allowing them to move into settlements is not.



Well, first of all, the notion that the ICJ is neutral is laughable. A bunch of judges (some from Muslim states) got together to discuss Israel. That's not going to result in an impartial discussion by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, the ICJ never investigated the legality of Israeli settlements. They discussed the legality of the security fence. The idea that the ICJ investigated the legality of the settlements is a regular talking points of the pro-Palestine camp, but it is clearly not the case. What the ICJ did do, is blindly accept the UN's notion that the settlements are illegal, which brings me to my next point.

Third - the ICJ responds based on background information provided from the UN in order to discuss particular situations. The background in of itself tends to be biased, especially in all cases regarding Israel as the UN continues to be the largest anti-Israel organization in the world.

Finally, even if the ICJ did investigate the legality of settlements, it was merely an advisory opinion, completely consultative in nature, and is not an official ruling.

The Supreme Court has members that have their minds decided on every issue before it even comes to their desk and that is according to a Supreme Court judge.

Clarence Thomas hits five years without asking a question - Los Angeles Times

I'm going to ignore your opinion on the ICJ here for the sake of brevity (Don't worry, I read it. you make good opposing points and I will address them another time) and jump into the legal issues of Article 49.

The legal distinction in the language has been made between a forcible transfer and a voluntary state sanctioned transfer. If there was no distinction between those two, the lawyers and judges who wrote this who obviously understand legal implications would have never put the language in. Legal language is very specific. Furthermore, the usage of deport or transfer illustrates this more. A deportation is an involuntary action where as a transfer is a voluntary one.

de·port
verb\di-ˈpȯrt, dē-\
: to force (a person who is not a citizen) to leave a country

versus

1trans·fer
verb \tran(t)s-ˈfər, ˈtran(t)s-ˌ\
trans·ferredtrans·fer·ring
move, shift

b : to cause to pass from one to another : transmit

c : transform, change
2
: to make over the possession or control of : convey
3
: to print or otherwise copy from one surface to another by contact
intransitive verb
1
: to move to a different place, region, or situation; especially: to withdraw from one educational institution to enroll at another
2
: to change from one vehicle or transportation line to another


As you can see the word transfer is far more ambiguous. It can imply a direct state action or an indirect one, there are many different meanings to the word which is why the authors made the distinction between forcible transfer and just transfer.
 
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