when did kobe fall out the discussion to be better then jordan

[Street Knowledge]

let's pretend that hand checking is still allowed and the NBA wasn't calling the game differently during 90s

Having hand checking in the 80's and early 90's didnt lead to a better defensive environment or teams overall. The 80's was a joke defensively, they were just more phsyical.

The 08' celtics(a top 3-5 defensive team of all time) was post The rule changes

And they were extremely physical in the finals

[ame="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4"]YouTube - 2008 NBA FINALS: Kobe Bryant vs. Boston Celtics Zone Defense[/ame]

 

[YBE]

Oh you aint know breh...

1 ring > 5 rings

 

[Gotright]

The media never like kobe to begin with anyway. They picked lebron from highschool so there's that.

Kobe has more accolades than lebron and even jordan said kobe is the only one close to him but the media likes lebron more.

the media like lbj now?even after the descion

 

[DoubleClutch]

I'd say when he got knocked out the playoffs prematurely the past two years, and his overall performance decline. Hes not helping his team much and cant lead them to a title anymore. The Dwight/Nash trade disqualifies him even if he does win a title again.

Not to mention Lebron just passed Kobe up in pretty much everyones opinion. A beter debate will soon be 2nd best shooting guard of all time: KOBE OR WADE?

 

[Jplaya2023]

honestly the moment shaq with the lakers. Or the moment Shaq held finals MVP in 2000, or the moment when they lost the 04 title to the pistons

pick one

 

[HacksawJimThuggin]

truthfully though, Kobe was always fighting an uphill battle



dude played with the most dominant player since Wilt and was the 2nd best player on his team for the first 3 rings... dudes that watched Jordan saw him win Finals MVP and be the best player on his squad each and every season, I think that right there is what did it




Player A career stats: 30.1 ppg, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 50% fg



Player B career stats: 25.4 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 45% fg



Player C career stats:25.2 ppg, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 49% fg






and yet somehow Kobe stans say it's blasphemous to put their guy (Player B) on the same level as Wade (Player C) despite Wade having better career stats and delusionally think Kobe should be mentioned in the same breath as MJ (Player A)... someone explain that to me

 

[West Coast Avenger]

I'd say when he got knocked out the playoffs prematurely the past two years, and his overall performance decline. Hes not helping his team much and cant lead them to a title anymore. The Dwight/Nash trade disqualifies him even if he does win a title again.

Not to mention Lebron just passed Kobe up in pretty much everyones opinion. A beter debate will soon be 2nd best shooting guard of all time: KOBE OR WADE?

..........alot of asinine shyt in this post....

 

[Th3G3ntleman]

?? Why is one actually discussing basketball attributes? Am I reading this thread wrong? Isn't this about being a better basketball player and not about achieving more?

 

[Constellations]

WHO CARES. HOW MANY TIMES WE GOTTA REHASH THE SAME GODDAMN ARGUMENTS. HOW MANY OF THESE fukkING THREADS DO WE GOTTA fukkING MAKE. THIS shyt WILL NEVER REACH A UNANIMOUS DECISION, THERE WILL NEVER BE A CONSENSUS. shyt IS LIKE ARGUING POLITICS OR RELIGION. WE ALL TOO ENTRENCHED IN OUR BELIEFS TO CHANGE OUR MINDS SO LETS JUST DROP IT

 

[Gotright]

truthfully though, Kobe was always fighting an uphill battle



dude played with the most dominant player since Wilt and was the 2nd best player on his team for the first 3 rings... dudes that watched Jordan saw him win Finals MVP and be the best player on his squad each and every season, I think that right there is what did it




Player A career stats: 30.1 ppg, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 50% fg



Player B career stats: 25.4 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 45% fg



Player C career stats:25.2 ppg, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 49% fg



and yet somehow Kobe stans say it's blasphemous to put their guy (Player B) on the same level as Wade (Player C) despite Wade having better career stats and delusionally think Kobe should be mentioned in the same breath as MJ (Player A)... someone explain that to me

 

[Gotright]

WHO CARES. HOW MANY TIMES WE GOTTA REHASH THE SAME GODDAMN ARGUMENTS. HOW MANY OF THESE fukkING THREADS DO WE GOTTA fukkING MAKE. THIS shyt WILL NEVER REACH A UNANIMOUS DECISION, THERE WILL NEVER BE A CONSENSUS. shyt IS LIKE ARGUING POLITICS OR RELIGION. WE ALL TOO ENTRENCHED IN OUR BELIEFS TO CHANGE OUR MINDS SO LETS JUST DROP IT

what would be the point of a message board

 

[Street Knowledge]

food for thought

MJ(88-98') vs Kobe (01-10') playoffs, for all intents and purposes both players primes

Super defense(under 101 DRtg)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 11 31.3 26.5 39.4% 50.0%
Kobe 56 27.2 22.2 43.8% 52.6%

Similar level, only difference is Kobe faced that level of defense 56 times while mike only 11.


Elite defense(101-104)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 38 31.9 24.3 46.5% 55.6%
Kobe 33 29.4 24.3 44.0% 53.3%


solid to average defense(104-107)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 79 33.3 24.8 49.9% 57.4%
Kobe 48 29.9 22.0 46.6% 57.4%


Week defense(107+)
GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 41 35.2 25.9 51.5% 58.7%
Kobe 11 30.8 22.1 49.8% 60.8%

30 more games against bad defenses then Bean.

So again, performed on a similar level but Mike had the luxuary of facing mediocre to flat out bad defensive teams in the playoffs then Kobe. So this myth that mike is vastly superior playoff performer is just that.... A myth

 

[Jplaya2023]

Handchecking vs Zone... which has a bigger impact on defense.

who employs zone today on a consistent basis for you to say it had an impact on a particuliar game? No one. Handchecking was an epidemic back then, not to mention there were true big men patrolling the paint and not rules allowing offensive perimeter players the freedom they have today

 

[Ruutu]

When Lebron decided he gonna take the league over!

 

[Jplaya2023]

food for thought

MJ(88-98') vs Kobe (01-10') playoffs, for all intents and purposes both players primes

Super defense(under 101 DRtg)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 11 31.3 26.5 39.4% 50.0%
Kobe 56 27.2 22.2 43.8% 52.6%

Similar level, only difference is Kobe faced that level of defense 56 times while mike only 11.


Elite defense(101-104)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 38 31.9 24.3 46.5% 55.6%
Kobe 33 29.4 24.3 44.0% 53.3%


solid to average defense(104-107)

GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 79 33.3 24.8 49.9% 57.4%
Kobe 48 29.9 22.0 46.6% 57.4%


Week defense(107+)
GM PPG FGA FG% TS%
Jordan 41 35.2 25.9 51.5% 58.7%
Kobe 11 30.8 22.1 49.8% 60.8%

30 more games against bad defenses then Bean.

So again, performed on a similar level but Mike had the luxuary of facing mediocre to flat out bad defensive teams in the playoffs then Kobe. So this myth that mike is vastly superior playoff performer is just that.... A myth

you have to understand, the pace of the NBA was a lot faster back then especially in the 80's so it's going to skew any defensive rating number you'd like to use in your argument.

faster pace = more shots = more points = lower defensive rating.