What would 2005-2006 Kobe average today with that same squad?

[Swagnificent]

You're presenting this bullshyt ass argument as if Harden in 2019 is playing the same amount of minutes as Kobe in 2006. Your argument would actually make sense if Harden were playing 40 minutes...but he isn't.

That's the entire fukking point of them playing less minutes...so they DON'T get ran into the ground playing that fast.
Jesus Christ, I didn't think I would actually have to explain that.

Did you even read what I posted?

I conceded the minutes argument to you. Now I'm asking you if guys don't play as many minutes anymore because of the faster pace leading to quicker fatigue, then how can you claim Harden's per 100 possessions are equivalent to Kobe's per 100 possessions? More fatigue leads to less defensive intensity meaning the defenses Kobe faced in those 100 possessions were more stout than the defenses Harden faced in his 100 possessions.

 

[Swagnificent]

He played 38 minutes per game that year and his body gave out...but you think somehow he'd magically be able to play 10 more minutes now?

He averaged 48 minutes for a stretch near the end of that season to get them into the playoffs. Obviously he couldn't do it for an entire season. My point there was to show Kobe would do the impossible if it came down to it. Never said he was impervious to the natural consequences of pushing your body too the edge.

 

[FunkDoc1112]

how young are you?

Cause that never happened. Nobody was saying Jordan would average 50 in 2006. In fact that era was not disrespected by the OGs like this one. I think what you did here was projecting. Trying to act like criticism of this era is somehow just old men talking shyt when in reality its a poor product and the OGs are calling it out for what it is.

Guys used to make the hand check argument but the response was the addition of zone defenses. Also considering the game was slower paced OGs weren't making arguments about Jordan putting up mythlogical numbers.

My nikka, what does my age have to do with THE shyt THAT I ACTUALLY READ BACK THEN???

If anything me being younger gives me a better memory of the shyt

This was the best stuff I could find, but:

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.

"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said.

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”

All of the bytching about hand checking and physicality have been going on for 15 fukking years now, breh. I was there, I've read countless forum posts, articles, quotes from people complaining about the game in 2006. I've gone back further and saw all of the old heads bytching about the lumbering iso game of the 90s and early '00s. I actually extensively research shyt so I know what i'm talking about, unlike 90% of this place.

That's why I go so hard on all of the rampant misinformation. I know this shyt like the back of my hand from reading and watching.

 

[Swagnificent]

My nikka, what does my age have to do with THE shyt THAT I ACTUALLY READ BACK THEN???

If anything me being younger gives me a better memory of the shyt

This was the best stuff I could find, but:

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.

"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said.

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”

All of the bytching about hand checking and physicality have been going on for 15 fukking years now, breh. I was there, I've read countless forum posts, articles, quotes from people complaining about the game in 2006. I've gone back further and saw all of the old heads bytching about the lumbering iso game of the 90s and early '00s. I actually extensively research shyt so I know what i'm talking about, unlike 90% of this place.

That's why I go so hard on all of the rampant misinformation. I know this shyt like the back of my hand from reading and watching.

That's Phil and a bunch of guys connected closely to Jordan. This wasn't coming from all the OGs.

Nowadays you don't just have Kobe's teammates saying this. Its just about every player from the past.

 

[FunkDoc1112]

Did you even read what I posted?

I conceded the minutes argument to you. Now I'm asking you if guys don't play as many minutes anymore because of the faster pace leading to quicker fatigue, then how can you claim Harden's per 100 possessions are equivalent to Kobe's per 100 possessions? More fatigue leads to less defensive intensity meaning the defenses Kobe faced in those 100 possessions were more stout than the defenses Harden faced in his 100 possessions.

The fatigue doesn't come into play because they're playing less fukking minutes.

They rotate guys more frequently so they can actually stay fresh.

 

[Lakerman0834]

You know it would be a lot easier to believe @Rhakim was genuine in his arguments here if he didn't make the exactly OPPOSITE just a year earlier when we were debating Luka stats versus LeBron at the same age.

Read this entire thread if you wanna see how hypocritical this man gets: https://www.thecoli.com/threads/les...ter-than-bron-was-his-first-100-games.752900/

I see @Rhakim avoiding you like he did in that thread

 

[Swagnificent]

A few gems from @Rhakim around this time last year when it was Luka vs LeBron:

LeBron's rookie year had the 2nd slowest pace since the early 50s, had zones AND hand-checking legal simultaneously, was loaded with defensive giants, and was arguably the most difficult year to score in of all time.

I mean come on now, you had a team with prime Kobe and prime Shaq (two supposedly unstoppable offensive talents) coached by the GOAT Phil Jackson and they only averaged 82ppg in the Finals. A Prime Kobe/Prime Shaq team scored 68 points (Shaq 14, Kobe 11, no one else on the team in double figures) in a Finals game. Kobe played 45 minutes just to put up an 11-3-5 with 4 turnovers stat line. That's some crazy shyt.


The last two years, on the other hand, are being played with fastest pace since 1990 (though isn't necessarily easier since it's not an expansion year like 1990 was and defense has locked in a lot since then), and is clearly the most opened up basketball has been in a couple decades.

Yet MJ's rookie year (and all the way up through his 5th year) was played at an even faster pace. AND the pace only dropped significantly when the NBA added six expansion teams between 1988 and 1995 (the most the NBA history had ever added in such a short time), fukking up the chemistry of so many teams and forcing so many unready players to get playing time that the league actually moved the three-point line in for MJ's comeback seasons just because fools couldn't shoot for shyt.

And that's before you even get into the teammates part of the equation.

THAT'S why some of y'all are so annoying. You try to make stat arguments from a place of total ignorance, then get pissed off when people use actual context to explain stats as if that should give you the right to use made-up context.

Apparently pace-adjusted numbers mattered last year when it was Luka vs LeBron. But now that we're talking Kobe its not very important. Instead minutes played is what matters.

 

[Lakerman0834]

That's Phil and a bunch of guys connected closely to Jordan. This wasn't coming from all the OGs.

Nowadays you don't just have Kobe's teammates saying this. Its just about every player from the past.

Tbh Jordan probably would avg 40 like Kobe in this soft ass era

 

[FunkDoc1112]

That's Phil and a bunch of guys connected closely to Jordan. This wasn't coming from all the OGs.

Nowadays you don't just have Kobe's teammates saying this. Its just about every player from the past.

Oh okay, so now it's not the right old heads

 

[Swagnificent]

Interesting. In this post @Rhakim brings up the quality of talent around LeBron in defending him versus the superior numbers of Luka:

You have to take teammates into account too. LeBron was playing with a bunch of guys who had won 17 games the year before. Luka is playing with guys who just beat the Sixers and the Bucks in back-to-back road games without him even stepping on the court.

Can you even imagine the crazy lines young LeBron would have put up if he had Porzingis/Hardaway/Curry to pass the ball to and keep the court open for him instead of Z, Flip Murray, and Eric Snow?


If you weren't trying to intentionally be dumb you'd see that I already addressed that low-IQ thinking just 6 comments above yours.

Just because other people use ACTUAL context to explain what happens doesn't mean you somehow earn the right to just make shyt up.

I wonder why he doesn't give Kobe the same benefit as Bron when it comes to playing in this era?

 

[FabTrey]

why yall nikkas talkin about minutes? i said IF he plays 41minutes


but oh wait @Rhakim today's players are longer and stronger, so kobe wouldn't be as dominant. afterall Kobe is 99% jordan.

 

[Swagnificent]

Here were my responses to @Rhakim bullsh*t from last year:

Why are you always sneaky and manipulative in your posts? You know good and well there is no statistical argument in favor of LeBron versus Luka at the same age (even taking pace into account). If there were you would have actually posted them already. But you haven't because you know there isn't. So rather than admitting that you instead try to trick and manipulate people with this post here talking about pace when anybody who knows anything about analytics knows there are several advanced stats that do take pace into account. You didn't post those advanced stats because you know they don't favor LeBron either.

The only arguments that can be made in Bron's favor are those made using the eye test. But you don't wanna admit that because you spent a lifetime arguing against that sort of logic when trying to claim LeBron is better than Kobe. Now you don't know how to act when inferior players like Luka come along and start demolishing all those statistical accomplishments you tried to use when touting Bron.

You know PER (player efficiency rating) takes pace into account. And the gap between LeBron and Luka thru their first 2 years according to PER is even larger the gap when just looking at normal box score stats (mainly cause young LeBron played way more minutes than Luka). Here are the stats you are trying to hide:

LeBron's PER as a 19 year old rookie: 18.3
Luka's PER as a 19 year old rookie: 19.6

LeBron's PER as a 20 year old 2nd year player: 25.7
Luka's PER as a 20 year old 2nd year player: 31.5

In fact, Luka's PER so far this season is higher than all but 2 of LeBron's highest PER seasons ever (and LeBron was barely higher in those 2 peak years). So statistically speaking you could say Luka is RIGHT NOW playing as good as LeBron has EVER played in his career.

You told us to look at the numbers. And the advanced stats are saying that Luka is WAY BETTER than LeBron was at the same age and as good right now as LeBron did in his peak.

Everyone else notice how this post is so different from his other posts in this thread regarding Luka vs LeBron?

When you wanna knock down the argument that Pippen could average 40ppg in this era you had no problem doing what you typically do which is post a whole bunch of stats and arguments based on extrapolating those numbers to counter that point. But you haven't done that at all when it comes to Luka being better than LeBron at the same age. All have done thus far with that argument is juelz your way with eye test talking points about who their teammates are.

This is why I have no respect for you. If you stayed consistent and did what you always do and went by the numbers, you would argue 20 year old Luka is better than 20 year old LeBron. But no. You actually don't really think stats are an objective measure of basketball ability. You just have an obsession with LeBron and will make whatever argument you can to support your apriori opinion of his greatness. This is what separates me from you. I am CONSISTENT. Nobody on this site can say I contradict myself the way you have contradicted yourself thus far when it comes to Luka vs LeBron. I always go by the eye test. I never give a shyt about stats. Doesn't matter the sport. Doesn't matter the player. I'm not even a LeBron fan. If I was like you I would be in here arguing Luka is better and shoving these analytics down your throat. But I don't believe Luka is better cause I use the eye test. I'm consistent. I saw 20 year old LeBron play and he was light years better than Luka could ever dream of becoming. So I say that. I don't allow my feelings of who I like and who I don't like to change my philosophy on how I look at things. I just call em like I see em.

Stop discussing basketball ever again. You exposed yourself as a fraud in this thread.

As ya'll can see, I'm consistent unlike him. I could have easily used Luka's superior pace-adjusted numbers to sh*t on LeBron. Instead I defended LeBron as the superior player by a wide margin despite the analytics saying otherwise. Compare that to what he's doing now with Kobe essentially trying to say Bradley Beal is just as capable a scorer.

He's easily the most hypocritical manipulative lying poster we have on this site.

 

[Swagnificent]

I see @Rhakim avoiding you like he did in that thread

Cause he knows I would shove the takes he made in that Luka vs LeBron debate we had just a year earlier down his throat. Just read the quotes he made in that thread when defending LeBron versus Luka's superior numbers. Its essentially the stuff he's arguing against right now. He tried to defend LeBron by citing the difference in pace between 2004-05 and 2019-20. As well as citing LeBron weaker supporting cast. He totally ignored the fact LeBron was playing 41 minutes per game compared to Luka's 32.

Now in this thread he's trying to say Kobe would score LESS in this era because he wouldn't be playing 41 minutes per game anymore. Pace and talent around him be damned.

I can't think of a more hypocritical poster on this site than that clown.

 

[Sccit]

Curry is surrounded by scoring talent? You're referring to Wiggins and Draymond and Oubre?

Let me repeat again. NO ONE in the last 15 years of NBA history has averaged 25 shots/game for a season. Not one. No matter how weak their rosters were.Last year, James Harden was the ONLY player in the entire NBA to shoot more than 21 times/game. Even fukking prime 2007 Kobe only shot the ball 22.8 times/game on that weak-ass roster.

That 2004-2006 era in the NBA was weird, when stars where still playing 40+ minutes and taking a ton of shots with lots of iso-ball while refs called a billion fouls. 2006 was the same year that Iverson, Bron, Arenas, and Kobe all hit their career scoring highs, even though they were in completely different career stages at the time. It was the year that multiple players shot over 25 times/game, the year that 6 players shot over 10 free throws/game, and the year that 3 players averaged over 31 points/game. None of that has been repeated, not even close.

Why do y'all keep ignoring everything that was unique about how much stars scored in 2006, then ignore everything about how little stars shoot in 2020?

YES WIGGINS + OUBRE ARE 10X THE SCORERS AS ANYONE OUTSIDE OF KOBE ON THE 2006 LAKERS

WERE TALKING ABOUT A PAST 24 PPG AND 19 PPG SCORER ..

IN COMPARISON, THE 2ND BEST SCORER ON THE 06 LAKERS WAS ODOM, WHO AVERAGED 17 PPG AT HIS PEAK

 

[Sccit]

@Rhakim
@Remote
@madness
@LexDiamonds


all posters who have consistently threw shade at Kobe in EVERY thread about him since he died........nikkas either typing us essays or passive aggressively dapping up all the misleading bullshyt......these are the same guys that'll tell you Ron Artest hit the go ahead shot in Game 7 even though we were already winning

dudes are real losers, and what's even the saddest part is Rhakim is like 45, this nikka was already an adult when Bron came into the league. Idolize your little homies brehs

DONT FORGET

@FunkDoc1112
@ISO
@murksiderock

A FEW OTHERS AS WELL