was Michael a better Godfather then Vito?

[CoryMack]

I wonder if anybody showed up for michaels funeral?

Vito was loved

But the question wasn’t who was more loved.

 

[FaTaL]

But the question wasn’t who was more loved.

Sure it is

Godfathers like to have their azzes kissed

That’s part of the job

 

[MrWillyWanker]

One of my fav threads on here. Bout to do my annual rewatch. Nothing beats this story I swear

 

[Spiritual Stratocaster]

fukking Fredo

"Mike you don't talk to a man like Moe Greene like THAT "

They way he was caping for Moe slapping his ass up

What always bugged me was Solozzo really thinking he could do business with the Corleones after attempting to kill Vito.

Also Vito and Johnny Fontaine when Vito mimicked him

"My career is in a stall...this movie would be good .
I don't know what to do"

Vito: "HOW BOUT YOU BE A MAN!!!! Hollywood turn you into a finook? "

 

[nightwing2016]

Damn just read through this entire thread, gotta ya'll for some of the insights that I missed. I really need to pick up the books.

 

[FromStLouis]

Tom Hagen should have married Connie and been Godfather.

But to answer the question, Vito was the better Godfather. Godfather is a leadership role, and while Michael was more successful, he was not the leader Vito was IMO.

 

[Poetical Poltergeist]

Tom Hagen should have married Connie and been Godfather.

He wasn't full Italian.

 

[FromStLouis]

He wasn't full Italian.

Sicilian.

Still, Tom was the right guy to takeover, lawyer, educated, he could have moved the family to legitimate halls of power that Vito wanted.

Connie's fukking husband wouldn't have been in the picture, and Sonny wouldn't have died.

Michael might have turned out normal, had a happy marriage with Kay, she never would have gotten that abortion.

 

[Spiritual Stratocaster]

Don't know if brehs knew this but in the book it goes into more detail about Carlo


Vito didn't approve of Carlo as a husband to Connie.
-They gave Carlo low level responsibility and didn't really let him in the inner circle.

Carlo resented that and that was a big reason why he was whipping connie's ass. He was punishing her for vito slighting him.


And I believe Clemenza was gonna turn traitor in Part 2 but they couldn't come to agreement with the actor so they just killed him off.

 

[Spiritual Stratocaster]

Tom Hagen should have married Connie and been Godfather.

But to answer the question, Vito was the better Godfather. Godfather is a leadership role, and while Michael was more successful, he was not the leader Vito was IMO.

Michael turned too cold..

You see when Vito is telling Tom why he doesn't want him to be a consigliere anymore..vito is tryna reassure him..give him the news easy.

Tom: Maybe I can still help--

Mike: TOM your out

 

[Poetical Poltergeist]

Sicilian.

Still, Tom was the right guy to takeover, lawyer, educated, he could have moved the family to legitimate halls of power that Vito wanted.

Connie's fukking husband wouldn't have been in the picture, and Sonny wouldn't have died.

Michael might have turned out normal, had a happy marriage with Kay, she never would have gotten that abortion.

But Tom wasn't a war time Don, he was too straight. Michael was needed after Vito was shot up and eventually too weak to lead. Sonny wasn't calculated enough so Michael was the perfect balance.

Michael fukked up marryring Kay, his ride or die hoe got blown up but he needed someone like that as Kay was too nosey. Don't marry white women smh.

Maybe if Fredo wasn't so weak there would be no need for him to betray the family therefore turning Mike into the full fledged darkness he ended up as.

In the end, what was supposed to happen did.

 

[FromStLouis]

But Tom wasn't a war time Don, he was too straight. Michael was needed after Vito was shot up and eventually too weak to lead. Sonny wasn't calculated enough so Michael was the perfect balance.

Michael fukked up marryring Kay, his ride or die hoe got blown up but he needed someone like that as Kay was too nosey. Don't marry white women smh.

Maybe if Fredo wasn't so weak there would be no need for him to betray the family therefore turning Mike into the full fledged darkness he ended up as.

In the end, what was supposed to happen did.

All great points, it really is one of the best movies ever to 'armchair quarterback'.

Michael wasn't a wartime Don at first either. 'What do you think this is the army where you shoot 'em a mile away?'

Michael got snuffed and wanted revenge lol

 

[MrWillyWanker]

Michael turned too cold..

You see when Vito is telling Tom why he doesn't want him to be a consigliere anymore..vito is tryna reassure him..give him the news easy.

Tom: Maybe I can still help--

Mike: TOM your out

Lol that scene always stuck out to me. The look on toms face after Michael said that was priceless. Son looked mad hurt

 

[Marlo Barksdale]

The one and only thing i've never been able to understand is...was tom hagan not the "war-time consigliere?"
i've never understood why michael treated him the way he did either, but like i said before i'm going to have to back and watch the movies.

I saw this and it perfectly sums up the answer. Tom could easily negotiate business deals but he just didn't have the ruthlessness and strategy when it was street beef and guns.

https://www.quora.com/In-what-way-was-Tom-Hagen-a-failure-as-a-wartime-consiglieri
Tom Hagen, while a criminal, wasn't a gangster.
That's an important distinction.

Tom Hagen was perfectly acceptable in roles where white collar crimes could be committed and intimidation was required. He could carry out the orders of whoever was Don and he could create new moneymaking opportunities for the family. As a consigliere, especially being an attorney, he could guide a crime family during peacetime activities as that was his experience and his forte.

He wasn't, however, a gangster.

Neither the novel (Note : I only consider the work of Mario Puzo to be canon in The Godfather universe) nor the films ever relate Tom Hagen killing anyone. He didn't come up through the streets, hustling, scamming and hurting people who got in his way. In fact, the Corleone's actually sheltered him from that life, while also sending him to college to earn his degree. He never had to become a criminal associate, nor a made man, and that made it difficult for him to understand situations involving gangsters as he wasn't one.

When Sollozzo came to the Don, a wartime consigliere would have thoroughly vetted him and made certain who was behind him. A wartime consigliere would have been able to deduce that refusing Sollozzo might be the prelude to a gang war. And a wartime consigliere would have insisted that Don Corleone either remain at the compound for a few months until the "storm" had blown over; or he would have only sent him out with an array of bodyguards.

Tom Hagen was a criminal, but he didn't think like a gangster (especially a gangster who was also a planner and a thinker) would. Michael Corleone recognized this and moved him in to a "rear echelon" role.

Tom always wanted to make peace and bluff people, but he never wanted the family to get "gangsta" and thought gangsters went by business etiquette. Similar to Stringer & Avon. This scene shows it.


Which is somewhat similar to this

 

[Marlo Barksdale]

This 2014 History Channel documentary on Godfather I & II does the best job of explaining the psychology and everything about the whole story and movies themselves. This is a must watch for everybody as they go through the movie story in order explaining everything.

From the director to the actors to experts to acual mafia people. It helps look at both don's style, intentions & mistakes.

Pt. 1


Pt. 2