Universal Healthcare (M4all): Italy’s government chooses if you live or die with/out the Coronavirus

Warren Moon

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The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors


Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.

Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow as these already extraordinary circumstances worsen. The document begins by likening the moral choices Italian doctors may face to the forms of wartime triage that are required in the field of “catastrophe medicine.” Instead of providing intensive care to all patients who need it, the authors suggest, it may become necessary to follow “the most widely shared criteria regarding distributive justice and the appropriate allocation of limited health resources.”


The principle they settle upon is utilitarian. “Informed by the principle of maximizing benefits for the largest number,” they suggest that “the allocation criteria need to guarantee that those patients with the highest chance of therapeutic success will retain access to intensive care.


The authors, who are medical doctors, then deduce a set of concrete recommendations for how to manage these impossible choices, including this: “It may become necessary to establish an age limit for access to intensive care.”

Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, would be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”

In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also advised to take a patient’s overall state of health into account: “The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated.” This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive: “What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.”

These guidelines apply even to patients who require intensive care for reasons other than the coronavirus, because they too make demands on the same scarce medical resources. As the document clarifies, “These criteria apply to all patients in intensive care, not just those infected with CoVid-19.”:gucci:


I hope none of y’all mommas have cancer and in the hospital. If the hospital gets over run during an epidemic.

She dies. :wow:

And there ain’t shyt u can do about it, you can’t even try to transfer her to a different hospital. It’s illegal

Be careful what u wish for
 

OfTheCross

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The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors


Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.

Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow as these already extraordinary circumstances worsen. The document begins by likening the moral choices Italian doctors may face to the forms of wartime triage that are required in the field of “catastrophe medicine.” Instead of providing intensive care to all patients who need it, the authors suggest, it may become necessary to follow “the most widely shared criteria regarding distributive justice and the appropriate allocation of limited health resources.”


The principle they settle upon is utilitarian. “Informed by the principle of maximizing benefits for the largest number,” they suggest that “the allocation criteria need to guarantee that those patients with the highest chance of therapeutic success will retain access to intensive care.


The authors, who are medical doctors, then deduce a set of concrete recommendations for how to manage these impossible choices, including this: “It may become necessary to establish an age limit for access to intensive care.”

Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, would be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”

In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also advised to take a patient’s overall state of health into account: “The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated.” This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive: “What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.”

These guidelines apply even to patients who require intensive care for reasons other than the coronavirus, because they too make demands on the same scarce medical resources. As the document clarifies, “These criteria apply to all patients in intensive care, not just those infected with CoVid-19.”:gucci:


I hope none of y’all mommas have cancer and in the hospital. If the hospital gets over run during an epidemic.

She dies. :wow:

And there ain’t shyt u can do about it, you can’t even try to transfer her to a different hospital. It’s illegal

Be careful what u wish for
No shyt. That same thing can happen here if we don't flatten the curve.

 

Warren Moon

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No shyt. That same thing can happen here if we don't flatten the curve.



if I had a family member who was getting their plug pulled just bc they’re in the icu. I’m taking them somewhere else bc I have the choice to do that.

How the fukk you going to kill my 65 year old black aunt bc some 25 year old white women needs the bed?


fukk outta here with that bullshyt. Ain’t no way I’m agreeing with that. And that example isn’t some crazy scenario. Y’all know that’s exactly how it will go down in Amerikkka.
 

OfTheCross

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if I had a family member who was getting their plug pulled just bc they’re in the icu. I’m taking them somewhere else bc I have the choice to do that.

How the fukk you going to kill my 65 year old black aunt bc some 25 year old white women needs the bed?


fukk outta here with that bullshyt. Ain’t no way I’m agreeing with that. And that example isn’t some crazy scenario. Y’all know that’s exactly how it will go down in Amerikkka.
source.gif
 

nyknick

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if I had a family member who was getting their plug pulled just bc they’re in the icu. I’m taking them somewhere else bc I have the choice to do that.

How the fukk you going to kill my 65 year old black aunt bc some 25 year old white women needs the bed?


fukk outta here with that bullshyt. Ain’t no way I’m agreeing with that. And that example isn’t some crazy scenario. Y’all know that’s exactly how it will go down in Amerikkka.
giphy.webp
 

Warren Moon

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Prevalence-of-co-morbidities-Elixhauser-comorbidities-by-race-ethnicity.png



Out of 10 comorbidities doctors look at.

African Americans are have the highest or second highest rate in 8 out of 10

Statistically we will be the first ones chosen to die either first or second 80% of the time :stopitslime:


Y’all nikkas dumb as fukk I swear. :snoop:


And you said I was baiting you. Vote for your family to get chosen to die first brehs :pacspit:
 
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5n0man

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CALI
Prevalence-of-co-morbidities-Elixhauser-comorbidities-by-race-ethnicity.png



Out of 10 comorbidities doctors look at.

African Americans are have the highest or second highest rate in 8 out of 10

Statistically we be the first ones chosen to die either first or second 80% of the time :stopitslime:


Y’all nikkas dumb as fukk I swear. :snoop:


And you said I was baiting you. Vote for your family to get chosen to die first brehs :pacspit:
Seems like that's already happening here with or without M4all.
:manny:

Italy is an example of what happens when you dont take early action. We are literally on the same course, you better believe your aunt is getting kicked out even without M4all.
 

OfTheCross

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Prevalence-of-co-morbidities-Elixhauser-comorbidities-by-race-ethnicity.png



Out of 10 comorbidities doctors look at.

African Americans are have the highest or second highest rate in 8 out of 10

Statistically we be the first ones chosen to die either first or second 80% of the time :stopitslime:


Y’all nikkas dumb as fukk I swear. :snoop:


And you said I was baiting you. Vote for your family to get chosen to die first brehs :pacspit:


Right now...with our current system...if we overloaded our healthcare system the way Italy has theirs how would we handle it?

In your example either your grandmother is gonna die or the next person coming to the hospital that they don't have the ability to treat. Either way someone is dying.
 

5n0man

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Right now...with our current system...if we overloaded our healthcare system the way Italy has theirs how would we handle it?

In your example either your grandmother is gonna die or the next person coming to the hospital that they don't have the ability to treat. Either way someone is dying.
Our hospitals are literally turning people away, I dont understand how this is an argument against Medicare for all.

Private insurance companies have been engaging in these practices before the coronavirus, what's the argument here?

:unimpressed:
 

mc_brew

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the black cat is my crown...
Right now...with our current system...if we overloaded our healthcare system the way Italy has theirs how would we handle it?

In your example either your grandmother is gonna die or the next person coming to the hospital that they don't have the ability to treat. Either way someone is dying.
Yes, but the government isn't making that choice. I don't mind if some bean counters in a corporate office somewhere make that choice, because at least my loved one would have died so that a profit could be made. But if government makes that choice, well, then my loved one would have died to increase taxes. That's just so... gross!
 

Warren Moon

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Right now...with our current system...if we overloaded our healthcare system the way Italy has theirs how would we handle it?

In your example either your grandmother is gonna die or the next person coming to the hospital that they don't have the ability to treat. Either way someone is dying.

In the USA there’s this thing called the “right to transfer” https://health.usnews.com/health-ne.../2014/06/12/your-rights-as-a-hospital-patient

it’s the law here.

You can ask to transfer in Italy too, but it has to be a private hospital. And you need to have private insurance or pay out of pocket.

if you solely rely on government healthcare, you’re shyt out of luck.
 

jj23

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if I had a family member who was getting their plug pulled just bc they’re in the icu. I’m taking them somewhere else bc I have the choice to do that.

How the fukk you going to kill my 65 year old black aunt bc some 25 year old white women needs the bed?


fukk outta here with that bullshyt. Ain’t no way I’m agreeing with that. And that example isn’t some crazy scenario. Y’all know that’s exactly how it will go down in Amerikkka.
You dont have that option when all the hospital beds are full. That's the reality of the coronavirus. Doctors aren't choosing who lives or dies because they have a choice in the matter....
 

OfTheCross

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In the USA there’s this thing called the “right to transfer” https://health.usnews.com/health-ne.../2014/06/12/your-rights-as-a-hospital-patient

it’s the law here.

You can ask to transfer in Italy too, but it has to be a private hospital. And you need to have private insurance or pay out of pocket.

if you solely rely on government healthcare, you’re shyt out of luck.
Understand what I asked ..if our system is overloaded like theirs there won't be anywhere to transfer to.

Then what?
 
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