Tutor reveals Ivy-admissions madness of rich penthouse parents

Walt

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yeah, you're all wrong and i'm right TOO.

edit: he followed up, taking back my mocking post :scheme:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I should add that I highly doubt this book is insightful or even truthful - it's just being marketed by touching on topics that titilate a lot of the general public - the way the wealthy live and a claim of "insider" knowledge. A New York Times reporter actually wrote a books a decade or so ago called The Gatekeepers, in which the author spent a year with access to the admissions process at an elite school. I know one of the guys who was on staff at that school at the time the book was written, and he made it very clear to me that even The Gatekeepers was distorted, uninformed, and written in a soap opera-esque way in order to appeal to readers. So if that book didn't give you the real deal, you can sure as hell bet you life that this book ain't giving you any real insight worth a damn.
 

theworldismine13

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I was a dean of admissions at one of the top colleges in the nation, and I assure you that a lot of you are talking out of your ass about shyt you haven't the faintest idea about.


i find this as believable as 88m3 having a full ride to Yale Med

but to respond, i was never saying that the rich dont have a huge advantage my point is that i reject the notion that AA will balance the scales and i dont cosign the goal of AA to get a few black people in, i think that is a misguided detour that white liberals have led black people to

I think what you can learn from the article is the techniques that rich people use to get their dumb kids into the ivy league, imo alot of it can easily be replicated starting with just strategizing when your kids are young, AA is not a real strategy for black people
 
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Walt

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i find this as believable as 88m3 having a full ride to Yale Med

Oh. Damn. Aside from the obvious hilarity of the prospect of defending my credibility in a forum where people demonstrate shockingly steadfast dedication to conspiracy theories and flimsy political and social philosophies, there's the bizarre fact that you choose to be skeptical of one of my former jobs despite several instances of my engaging in discussion of college admissions on SOHH with Aly and a couple of other posters in KTL. Also, you choose to believe that I pulled the questions from my previous post in this thread out of my ass, or have some reservoir of slanted knowledge culled from selective research that I unleashed on the spot for... what purpose exactly?

Which is actually typical KTL/HL logic, to be skeptical of corrective knowledge rooted in facts and experience while trumpeting worthless bullshyt like a press release for a fukking work of fiction because it might kind of sort of support a line of thinking you find agreeable depending on how you interpret it. Or something.

You doubting whether or not I was a dean of admissions is precisely as relevant to me as me doubting you are a human being with a nose, mouth, and eyes would be to you. As I pointed out in regards to the admissions process, with some things the truth stays the truth regardless of our belief in or arguments about it.

Or, more succinctly: :manny:

but to respond

Well, let's be accurate and honest here. In what way are you responding to my post? I didn't mention or quote you, and you've not actually responded to anything in my post except to waste both my time and yours by announcing you don't believe I was a dean of admissions.

i was never saying that the rich dont have a huge advantage my point is that i reject the notion that AA will balance the scales and i dont cosign the goal of AA to get a few black people in, i think that is a misguided detour that white liberals have led black people to

I think what you can learn from the article is the techniques that rich people use to get their dumb kids into the ivy league, imo alot of it can easily be replicated starting with just strategizing when your kids are young, AA is not a real strategy for black people

There is nothing in that "article" - which is a threadbare and transparent promotional piece about a surely shytty bit of pop fiction - that lends insight into or sparks debate about affirmative action, balancing the scales, or anything else relevant to elite institutions of higher education or education in general. Period.
 

theworldismine13

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Oh. Damn. Aside from the obvious hilarity of the prospect of defending my credibility in a forum where people demonstrate shockingly steadfast dedication to conspiracy theories and flimsy political and social philosophies, there's the bizarre fact that you choose to be skeptical of one of my former jobs despite several instances of my engaging in discussion of college admissions on SOHH with Aly and a couple of other posters in KTL. Also, you choose to believe that I pulled the questions from my previous post in this thread out of my ass, or have some reservoir of slanted knowledge culled from selective research that I unleashed on the spot for... what purpose exactly?

Which is actually typical KTL/HL logic, to be skeptical of corrective knowledge rooted in facts and experience while trumpeting worthless bullshyt like a press release for a fukking work of fiction because it might kind of sort of support a line of thinking you find agreeable depending on how you interpret it. Or something.

You doubting whether or not I was a dean of admissions is precisely as relevant to me as me doubting you are a human being with a nose, mouth, and eyes would be to you. As I pointed out in regards to the admissions process, with some things the truth stays the truth regardless of our belief in or arguments about it.

Or, more succinctly: :manny:

ok, sure.....:stopitslime:

Well, let's be accurate and honest here. In what way are you responding to my post? I didn't mention or quote you, and you've not actually responded to anything in my post except to waste both my time and yours by announcing you don't believe I was a dean of admissions.



There is nothing in that "article" - which is a threadbare and transparent promotional piece about a surely shytty bit of pop fiction - that lends insight into or sparks debate about affirmative action, balancing the scales, or anything else relevant to elite institutions of higher education or education in general. Period.

that was wherethe thread went, because people said the article is a case for why we need AA

to me your post sounded like you were taking shots at me that is why i responded, but if you werent my bad
 

Walt

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ok, sure.....:stopitslime:

:ohhh:

No you didn't break out the Cam smiley on me, dog! I better find my old business card so I can post a screenshot and ether your untoward insinuations! Even though I rarely post in HL, it is very important to me that I pull off this random charade of being a former admissions dean! I mean, that post I typed with all the questions/details about the admissions process at an elite school - which I actually based on an "ask yahoo" response - will be worthless if I don't debate this with you and somehow win this point in front of the other posters! The fate of HL liberalism and affirmative action hangs in the balance!
:usure:
 

theworldismine13

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:ohhh:

No you didn't break out the Cam smiley on me, dog! I better find my old business card so I can post a screenshot and ether your untoward insinuations! Even though I rarely post in HL, it is very important to me that I pull off this random charade of being a former admissions dean! I mean, that post I typed with all the questions/details about the admissions process at an elite school - which I actually based on an "ask yahoo" response - will be worthless if I don't debate this with you and somehow win this point in front of the other posters! The fate of HL liberalism and affirmative action hangs in the balance!
:usure:

LOL, yo, if you were the "dean of admissions at a top college" more power to you
 

Walt

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LOL, yo, if you were the "dean of admissions at a top college" more power to you

I was a dean of admissions at one of the top colleges in the country. There are typically several per staff. Anywhere between 4 and 12 depending on the size of the incoming applicants per year. And they range from the dean to senior dean to senior associate dean to associate dean junior dean to assistant dean depending on the institution. I had a huge office and an impressive title. My salary relative to the office and title though... :troll::wtb::why::mjpls:

Of all the administrative positions at elite schools, the admissions dean position is typically the least lucrative. Which is why the field tends to be disproportionately filled with women and ethnic minorities.

To be perfectly honest, if you think I'm spitting ducktales, you're giving me a hell of a compliment. The range of my imagination as well as my impromptu recall and manipulation of facts about college admissions... all while drinking a dirty martini, listening to Johnny Guitar Watson's "Loving You," and waiting for my homegirl to get off work and bless me...

:ohlawd:

I'd be on some Good Will Hunting shyt.
 

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@Walt since you are here now and have joined this HL discussion can we pick you brain for some info on how the process actually works or at least worked when you were in your large office making a little more than minimum wage? :troll:

Despite the fact that my rational mind knows that only 20-25 people (who have already graduated and cannot benefit from the information herein) are reading this thread, my hopeful, idyllic self imagines that this information, if disseminated here on HL, can somehow find it's way to a young intelligent college junior with limited means who, if he or she only had the right information about the admissions process, would attend Harvard instead of Ohio State.

So first, I referenced a study done by Caroline Hoxby at Stanford which claims that one of the primary reasons HS seniors from don't attend elite institutions in the numbers that the could is that they do not apply in large numbers and think that the costs will be prohibitive. In your experience do you agree that this is a major reason?

Secondly, to address the original thread topic in specific, do you think there would be a significant benefit to black families trying to mimic the strategies of wealthy white/Asian families to gain admissions to 'elite' institutions? I will assume your answer is no due to the fact that you said "a poor kid with a nearly full ride still incurs more costs in the long run and makes less money in the long run than the bulk of families that pay full tuition". But I am interested to hear, in case my assumption is wrong.
 

theworldismine13

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I was a dean of admissions at one of the top colleges in the country. There are typically several per staff. Anywhere between 4 and 12 depending on the size of the incoming applicants per year. And they range from the dean to senior dean to senior associate dean to associate dean junior dean to assistant dean depending on the institution. I had a huge office and an impressive title. My salary relative to the office and title though... :troll::wtb::why::mjpls:

Of all the administrative positions at elite schools, the admissions dean position is typically the least lucrative. Which is why the field tends to be disproportionately filled with women and ethnic minorities.

To be perfectly honest, if you think I'm spitting ducktales, you're giving me a hell of a compliment. The range of my imagination as well as my impromptu recall and manipulation of facts about college admissions... all while drinking a dirty martini, listening to Johnny Guitar Watson's "Loving You," and waiting for my homegirl to get off work and bless me...

:ohlawd:

I'd be on some Good Will Hunting shyt.

oh i see, so you worked in the admissions office, i can believe that

maybe your college was different but dean is usually the equivalent of VP in a corporation, you would have to be 60 something to be the dean of anything in most places
 

Suicide King

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I was a dean of admissions at one of the top colleges in the country. There are typically several per staff. Anywhere between 4 and 12 depending on the size of the incoming applicants per year. And they range from the dean to senior dean to senior associate dean to associate dean junior dean to assistant dean depending on the institution. I had a huge office and an impressive title. My salary relative to the office and title though... :troll::wtb::why::mjpls:

Of all the administrative positions at elite schools, the admissions dean position is typically the least lucrative. Which is why the field tends to be disproportionately filled with women and ethnic minorities.

To be perfectly honest, if you think I'm spitting ducktales, you're giving me a hell of a compliment. The range of my imagination as well as my impromptu recall and manipulation of facts about college admissions... all while drinking a dirty martini, listening to Johnny Guitar Watson's "Loving You," and waiting for my homegirl to get off work and bless me...

:ohlawd:

I'd be on some Good Will Hunting shyt.

Even at my pharmacy school the dean of admissions was on her 2nd year on the job. By time I graduated she quit and went back to teaching at community college. :laugh:

...

Dean at M.I.T. Resigns, Ending a 28-Year Lie

Marilee Jones, the dean of admissions at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, became well known for urging stressed-out students competing for elite colleges to calm down and stop trying to be perfect. Yesterday she admitted that she had fabricated her own educational credentials, and resigned after nearly three decades at M.I.T. Officials of the institute said she did not have even an undergraduate degree.

“I misrepresented my academic degrees when I first applied to M.I.T. 28 years ago and did not have the courage to correct my résumé when I applied for my current job or at any time since,” Ms. Jones said in a statement posted on the institute’s Web site. “I am deeply sorry for this and for disappointing so many in the M.I.T. community and beyond who supported me, believed in me, and who have given me extraordinary opportunities.”

Ms. Jones said that she would not make any other public comment “at this personally difficult time” and that she hoped her privacy would be respected.

Ms. Jones, 55, originally from Albany, had on various occasions represented herself as having degrees from three upstate New York institutions: Albany Medical College, Union College and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. In fact, she had no degrees from any of those places, or anywhere else, M.I.T. officials said.

A spokesman for Rensselaer said Ms. Jones had not graduated there, though she did attend as a part-time nonmatriculated student during the 1974-75 school year. The other colleges said they had no record of her.

Phillip L. Clay, M.I.T.’s chancellor, said in an interview that a college degree was probably not required for Ms. Jones’s entry-level job in the admissions office when she arrived in 1979. And by the time she was appointed admissions dean in 1997, Professor Clay said, she had already been in the admissions office for many years, and apparently little effort was made to check what she had earlier presented as her credentials.

“In the future,” he said, “we will take a big lesson from this experience.”

Since last fall, Ms. Jones had been making speeches around the country to promote her book, “Less Stress, More Success: A New Approach to Guiding Your Teen Through College Admissions and Beyond,” written with a pediatrician, Dr. Kenneth R. Ginsburg. The book had added to her reputation as a kind of guru of the movement to tame the college admissions frenzy.

“Less Stress, More Success” addresses not only the pressure to be perfect but also a need to live with integrity.

“Holding integrity is sometimes very hard to do because the temptation may be to cheat or cut corners,” it says. “But just remember that ‘what goes around comes around,’ meaning that life has a funny way of giving back what you put out.”

Professor Clay said the dean for undergraduate education, Daniel Hastings, received information 10 days ago questioning Ms. Jones’s academic background. M.I.T. officials would not say who had provided the information.

“There are some mistakes people can make for which ‘I’m sorry’ can be accepted, but this is one of those matters where the lack of integrity is sufficient all by itself,” Professor Clay said. “This is a very sad situation for her and for the institution. We have obviously placed a lot of trust in her.”

On the campus, where Ms. Jones was widely admired, almost revered, for her humor, outspokenness and common sense, students and faculty members alike seemed both saddened and shocked.

“It’s like a Thomas Hardy tragedy, because she did so much good, but something she did long ago came back and trumped it,” said one friend, Leslie C. Perelman, director of Writing Across the Curriculum at M.I.T.

Mike Hurley, a freshman chemistry student, said, “It was surprising,” adding, “Everyone who was admitted here probably knows her, at least her name.”

Mr. Hurley said that the admissions office had been unusually accessible, with Ms. Jones’s “bright” personality and blogs for incoming students.

“Whenever someone’s integrity is questioned,” he said, “it sets a bad example, but I feel like the students can get past that and look at what she’s done for us as a whole.”

Rachel Ellman, who studies aerospace engineering, said, “I feel like she’s irreplaceable.”

Ms. Jones had received the institute’s highest honor for administrators, the M.I.T. Excellence Award for Leading Change, and many college admissions officers and high school college counselors said yesterday that whatever her personal shortcomings, her efforts deserved respect.

“She’s been working and presenting a lot of important ideas about our business,” said Rod Skinner, director of college counseling at Milton Academy, the Massachusetts prep school. “What I’m hoping is that the quality of the research and the book will hold up.”

Ms. Jones was hired by the admissions office in 1979 to recruit young women, who at the time made up only 17 percent of the institute’s undergraduates, compared with nearly half today.

Since she entered the field, admissions to M.I.T. and other elite institutions have become increasingly competitive, and she made her mark with her efforts to turn down the flame of competition.

Among other things, she told students that they did not need perfect SAT scores to get into M.I.T. She also redesigned the institute’s application form, leaving less space for students to list their extracurricular activities, so as not to imply that every student needed 10 activities to fill the 10 lines that used to be there.

Competition remains fierce, though. For the coming fall, M.I.T. accepted 12 percent of 12,443 applicants.

Those who attended this month’s events for admitted students said Ms. Jones had been in good spirits, especially at a Saturday night finale. There, Ms. Jones, who in younger days was a torch singer at upstate New York clubs, took part in a “battle of the bands,” singing, “You Can’t Always Get What You Want.”

Christy McKerney contributed reporting from Cambridge, Mass., and Sara Rimer from Boston.

Correction: April 30, 2007


A front page article Friday on the resignation of Marilee Jones, M.I.T.'s dean of admissions, misidentified Leslie Perelman, a faculty member who commented on her resignation. He is the director of Writing Across the Curriculum at M.I.T., not the director of the M.I.T. program in writing and humanistic studies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/us/27mit.html?_r=0
 

Walt

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@Walt since you are here now and have joined this HL discussion can we pick you brain for some info on how the process actually works or at least worked when you were in your large office making a little more than minimum wage? :troll:

Despite the fact that my rational mind knows that only 20-25 people (who have already graduated and cannot benefit from the information herein) are reading this thread, my hopeful, idyllic self imagines that this information, if disseminated here on HL, can somehow find it's way to a young intelligent college junior with limited means who, if he or she only had the right information about the admissions process, would attend Harvard instead of Ohio State.

So first, I referenced a study done by Caroline Hoxby at Stanford which claims that one of the primary reasons HS seniors from don't attend elite institutions in the numbers that the could is that they do not apply in large numbers and think that the costs will be prohibitive. In your experience do you agree that this is a major reason?

Secondly, to address the original thread topic in specific, do you think there would be a significant benefit to black families trying to mimic the strategies of wealthy white/Asian families to gain admissions to 'elite' institutions? I will assume your answer is no due to the fact that you said "a poor kid with a nearly full ride still incurs more costs in the long run and makes less money in the long run than the bulk of families that pay full tuition". But I am interested to hear, in case my assumption is wrong.

My honest answer will sound like a bland cop-out: it's very, very complex. I'd be happy to touch on what I learned during my time in admissions, but I'll have to give it some thought, I don't want to just ramble on and on. So I'll get back to you.

oh i see, so you worked in the admissions office, i can believe that

maybe your college was different but dean is usually the equivalent of VP in a corporation, you would have to be 60 something to be the dean of anything in most places

Fam, what's really wrong with you? What puerile brand of logic is egging you on to keep replying to me with variations of "I don't believe you were a dean of admissions?" Cool then bro, keep it moving. I've been nothing but polite and patient in trying to explain to you in reasonable terms that admissions is a complicated process influenced by many factors - some insidious, some basic. I guess I should adapt to the typical Higher Learning approach and just plainly and curtly say son, you know nothing about college admissions. You posted an advertisement for a novel posing as news and have used it to back some point or other that isn't really worth anyone's time. Awesome. You da intellectual man, dog.

But you know nothing about college admissions, and you know nothing about why and how high schools, wealthy families, tutors, testing services, independent counselors, etc. position themselves to manipulate the admissions process. That much is painfully clear. You also know nothing about admissions deans, admissions offices, admissions staffs at elite schools. I don't even know what you mean by a "dean is usually the equivalent of a VP in a corporation" and "you would have to be 60 something to be the dean of anything in most places." I don't know what you mean because you have no idea what you're talking about. Firstly there are various types of deans across the more bureaucratic departments who are paid differently, hired under different qualifications, and serve different purposes. I've known deans of admissions - head deans - much younger than 60. You don't what you're talking about, and watching you fumble through this goofy jester's dance of lamely questioning my legitimacy is as weird and comical as an NBA player being challenged about what it actually takes to make an NBA roster by some random poster in the sports forum. I'm over here giving you actual worthwhile information in my posts, while you're providing no insight or knowledge whatsoever, playing the roll of knee-jerk, pointless troll.

This is precisely the sort of thing that keeps a lot of decent, serious-minded, critical, and informed posters out of HL - there's nothing sadder and more awkward than when the music stops, the kids leave, and the lights go out, but a clown keeps dancing and juggling. There's a tenuous line between discourse and schtick with a lot of you dudes.
 

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How many of you know what a "tip" is in the committee process? Or what the committee process is?The extent of the development office's role in the process? The correlation between wealth and SAT scores that has been validated over and over and over? The way race and affirmative action has been used as a divisive red herring to distract from the fact - yes, THE FACT - that our elite institutions of higher learning have become little more than rubber-stampers for the privileged? And that the process eats brilliant middle class and lower-middle-class white kids up and spits them out? That there is a rarely-discussed and blatantly obvious bias against women at many of the best schools in the nation? How many of you have the slightest idea of how applications are read and evaluated? The different ways that elite, private high schools have developed to manipulate the admissions process for their students? The way this has all dovetailed with the U.S. News and World Report rankings throughout the years? How many of you know about the objective study commissioned by one of the top liberal arts institutions (which leans right) that showed the admissions process is obviously skewed toward the wealthy though not the best students? That the same study showed clearly a poor kid with a nearly full ride still incurs more costs in the long run and makes less money in the long run than the bulk of families that pay full tuition? How many of you know the real purpose early decision served (and in some cases continues to serve) at many elite institutions? How lower level athletics serves as a warped affirmative action for unqualified, wealthy white men above all else? How one decision at one particular school due to special interest can lead to 5 different people being unfairly included or excluded from the freshman class?

I'm not asking any of those to be snarky, condescending, or to play high post and snooty - I'm asking because I think it's bizarre and borderline depressing to read so many people reduce an extremely complex issue to such a simplistic one. There are so many different things at work in this process. People tend to argue "sides," as if this is a debate between who the best 3rd baseman of all time is, or whether the Yankees are a more successful franchise than the Lakers. There are no sides. Truth isn't a "side." If you come to the table wanting to validate your belief that wealthy white people are handed everything, you'll probably find selective evidence to buoy your belief; if you think black people don't study enough and that's the reason they struggle to gain entry into the best schools, you can find selective evidence to support that too. But none of that is really relevant or true. The truth about our social structures and our college admissions process and about class and race and power and manipulation of data and processes is far more complicated and at many turns far more sinister than you'd imagine.

:manny:
Sounds legit:smile:
I went to a pretty affluent and well regarded school out here in phoenix and my experience was that kids at this school were all but walked through the process and in a graduating class of 60 i'd say 55 got into their first choice school, most of them Ivy league. We had a councelor that started hitting you up like week 3 of FRESHMAN year, I knew a dozen students who were only allowed to take tests on yellow paper AND they could not be timed because of "learning disabilities", I know dudes who took ACT & SAT prep classes 4 years straight and then would start taking the SAT "for real" beginning Junior year until they got a score they were happy with (over 1500 in most cases). Who's parents MANDATED, in coordination with the school that X amount of "volunteer" /extra curricular activities be completed. The shyt was a formula, and a very successful formula.

I"m not sure what the process for reviewing all that information is but to say the wealthy don't have a leg up on that entire process is an outright lie (not that you've said that).

On the flip side, i had friends, very smart friends, smarter than a large chunk of the kids at my highschool who attended IB schools in phoenix that didn't have nearly the same help being forced to go to state schools. (Granted they ultimately ended up doing well for themselves)
 
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