Turkey's Constitutional Referendum Vote

[David_TheMan]

nah, it's not the same. even right wingers in the US have to at least pay lip service to term limits and power deriving from citizenry

No they dont actually.
US has had a "dictator in chief" since atleast the 60s.
Those powers have gradually expanded since 9/11, starting first with Bush, expanding under Obama, and now I'm sure it will expand even more under Trump.

I mean the Constitution specifically prohibits death without trial, but today we have a legal system that says the government can murder US citizens without a trial or claim that they even committed a crime. The US government has the authority to spy on citizens without a warrant and can be granted a warrant to spy without having to produce a crime they might have committed. US government can arrest and indefinitely detain without any charges of a crime.

US is a police state but like you most americans so busy looking at the next nation, you don't even realize what this nation has become.

 

[David_TheMan]

im speaking more on their view of governance, how people have elected to give their leader an even firmer hold on the country. they're obviously not the first and won't be the last, and im not even necessarily criticizing it, though i dont agree with it.

i'd say the same about old chileans i've met that say pinochet was what chile needed, or italian military officers i used to work for that still pine for mussolini. i dont get it

Its the disgusting effect of nationalism. They put more value on the value of "the state" than themselves or individuals. Oh Pinochet did "some bad things" (weird minimizing euphamism for out right murder) but he made "Chile" the nation state strong and he saved us from "communism" , typical bullshyt of statists.

The more you examine the rise of the nation-state and nationalism the more you notice this sad trend of more pride and care for intangible classifications than concrete and real human beings

 

[Entropy Fan]

But theres only Turkish conspiracy that the US was behind the coup...and they've been using any excuse to get Gulen for a while

The coup was planned out of a NATO base that houses 2500 US troops, same base the f16s that were involved flew out of. US knew and gave thumb up, or they are so clueless and incompetent a coup can be planned and executed literally under their nose

Which is it Napoleon?

 

[Entropy Fan]

Okay, but should we applaud Erdogan for bringing that back?

I mean I know I've read during the cold war years it was essentially a military/mafia state maybe that's the next step after democracy/liberalism?

No. Just telling that there wasn't any of this concern when an unelected military was running things and executing presidents it didn't like.

Maybe democracy isn't what the critics really care about

 

[dennis roadman]

No they dont actually.
US has had a "dictator in chief" since atleast the 60s.
Those powers have gradually expanded since 9/11, starting first with Bush, expanding under Obama, and now I'm sure it will expand even more under Trump.

I mean the Constitution specifically prohibits death without trial, but today we have a legal system that says the government can murder US citizens without a trial or claim that they even committed a crime. The US government has the authority to spy on citizens without a warrant and can be granted a warrant to spy without having to produce a crime they might have committed. US government can arrest and indefinitely detain without any charges of a crime.

US is a police state but like you most americans so busy looking at the next nation, you don't even realize what this nation has become.

ok breh, im currently in a country in latin america that has just undergone a koch brothers and evangelical-inspired bloodless coup after seeing bright eyed socialists turn to shrugging profiteers. and both of those are preferable to the military dictatorship that preceded them. you dont have to lecture me about FISA. the fact remains the authoritarian leanings of the fukking diyanet are not comparable to the abuses of freedom in the united states

Its the disgusting effect of nationalism. They put more value on the value of "the state" than themselves or individuals. Oh Pinochet did "some bad things" (weird minimizing euphamism for out right murder) but he made "Chile" the nation state strong and he saved us from "communism" , typical bullshyt of statists.

The more you examine the rise of the nation-state and nationalism the more you notice this sad trend of more pride and care for intangible classifications than concrete and real human beings

this i agree with, though the same could be said for monarchies of the past, of course. see mark twain's commentary on the french revolution.

i've only lost my cool a few times in the past year, and one of them was when i nearly slapped fire out of an old man for saying the military should be brought back to power. and this country has a far different history of colonialism and nation-state building than the rest of the west

 

[David_TheMan]

ok breh, im currently in a country in latin america that has just undergone a koch brothers and evangelical-inspired bloodless coup after seeing bright eyed socialists turn to shrugging profiteers. and both of those are preferable to the military dictatorship that preceded them. you dont have to lecture me about FISA. the fact remains the authoritarian leanings of the fukking diyanet are not comparable to the abuses of freedom in the united states


this i agree with, though the same could be said for monarchies of the past, of course. see mark twain's commentary on the french revolution.

i've only lost my cool a few times in the past year, and one of them was when i nearly slapped fire out of an old man for saying the military should be brought back to power. and this country has a far different history of colonialism and nation-state building than the rest of the west

I disagree with you, the authoritarian leanings that the Turks are taking is a authoritarian leap that the US has already made after WW2. Hell you could probably say WW2 when the US government was imprisoning those who were against the war and refused to be conscripted.

So I guess with regard to the US will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[dennis roadman]

I disagree with you, the authoritarian leanings that the Turks are taking is a authoritarian leap that the US has already made after WW2. Hell you could probably say WW2 when the US government was imprisoning those who were against the war and refused to be conscripted.

So I guess with regard to the US will simply have to agree to disagree.

there are elements in the US that have mirrored this, yes. i just dont see it as pervasive as it is in Turkey at the moment

 

[David_TheMan]

there are elements in the US that have mirrored this, yes. i just dont see it as pervasive as it is in Turkey at the moment

LIke you said, agree to disagree.

 

[Entropy Fan]

there are elements in the US that have mirrored this, yes. i just dont see it as pervasive as it is in Turkey at the moment

Does the Turkish president have the legal power to assassinate his citizens with little judicidal oversight? Detain people for years without even pressing charges ?Cuz the US president does

 

[mbewane]

Why isnt turkey, pakistan & india on the same page

Why would they be

 

[Strapped]

Security

 

[88m3]

Security

It's either time to expand on your statement or read the histories of Turkey and Pakistan/India again.

You realize Pakistan and India were partitioned in 1947 right?

 

[FAH1223]

 

[88m3]

https://thinkprogress.org/trump-reportedly-applauds-turkeys-authoritarian-power-grab-e18f47b58cf0

 

[88m3]

@FAH1223 out of curiosity if Spain or Portugal became dictatorships again would you consider that a regression/negative?