Traditional African gay wedding debuts

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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Bud Bundy said:
Though I will not deny some people were not forced to say non of them where and people just accepted Christianity just because it was familiar is. I really can not believe you just typed it.

I didn't say 'none'. I WILL say the majority.

Bud Bundy said:
Also I don't know why you keep bringing up other topics and ignoring my other posts to you and giving answers to questions i never asked?

I didn't bring up any other topic and I ignored your other posts because they have no bearing on the point. Slavemasters did NOT want their slaves to be Christians, so stating that it was 'forced/pushed' on our ancestors is a big, fat lie. It would have been (and ultimately was) counterproductive to the whole industry.​
 

africanprince

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It's a Zulu wedding, from the looks of it. Traditionally, Zulu weren't intolerant of homosexuality, so calling it the "first" may be a stretch. There's some evidence that the famous Shaka Zulu himself slept with men on a regular basis. Male on male "marriages" are called hlobongo on the Zulu language... in other words, there was already a word for it.

I am Swazi, meaning Zulus, Xhosas and Swazis have the same culture (they are Nguni) with only a few slight differences. Hell, Siswati is 98% the same as Zulu. That's a huge lie!
 

The Real

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Nope. What I'm saying is that Christianity was familiar prior to the Portuguese incursions of the 15th Century in West Africa. What our ancestors 'accepted' were the spiritual aspects of the religion, same with Islam, since they had been practicing them for a thousand+ years prior. John Henrik Clarke goes into a lot more detail about the subject.

To some of them, certainly, but not most of them, and not in the general sense in which you're extending the claim. Furthermore, most Christianity in West Africa was practiced in the eastern part of the northwest, not the places where slaves were sourced, so its even less relevant for African Americans. I'm familiar with Clarke's arguments, and I have a great deal of respect for him in general (coincidentally, I was watching one of his vids just before I saw your post,) but he is similarly inaccurate for a number of reasons. Islam was much, much more familiar than Christianity, which was almost nonexistent. Especially between the slave coast and the Congo (until the Portugese,) the largest stretch of Africa from which slaves were shipped, there was no real Christian presence ever, even before Islam (which itself wasn't so common in most of that stretch, either, most Muslim slaves coming from Senegambia.)

The second part of this is his argument that the West Africans were practicing religions from which Christianity liberally borrowed, which is also untrue. Those Northeast African and Egyptian beliefs (which I completely agree were influences on Abrahamic religion) were completely nonexistent in Central-west Africa, nor do they have any cognates or shared ancestry with the belief systems in those areas.

I find Clarke's arguments on the matter to be a similar kind of ultimately Eurocentric Afrocentrism as one finds among certain Muslims who make similar claims about Islam's place in pre-slavery African history, both of which also ignore that Christianity and Islam both saw their greatest expansion on the continent during and because of European colonialism. In trying to reconstruct a pre-slavery identity, they both end up relying strongly on a particularly European notion of identity, resulting in European isomorphism rather than something historically accurate. Even Afrocentrists who are interested in native, non-Abrahamic faiths do this sometimes. Nobody really wants to be a pagan... it's one of the final frontiers of Eurocentrism in the area of Black history.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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The Real said:
To some of our ancestors, certainly, but not most of them, and not in the general sense in which you're extending the claim.

No, most of them. In a general and specific sense since the Qu'ran is based on the Bible. ′Ahl al-Kitāb.​
 

The Real

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No, most of them. In a general and specific sense since the Qu'ran is based on the Bible. ′Ahl al-Kitāb.​

Most slaves weren't Muslim, though, nor were they necessarily familiar with Islam. Again, Islam's stronghold was Senegambia. Islam was virtually nonexistent in the vast stretch between the Slave Coast and the Congo. At most, about 1/4th of all slaves were Muslim, and at most, only about half of all slaves came from areas where there was even a Muslim minority. About (probably more than) half came from areas with no Muslim presence whatsoever. To suggest that they were extremely familiar with Islam is pure speculation. Even those from areas with Muslim minorities weren't necessary familiar with it in any significant sense, any more than most Americans have actual familiarity what minority religions like Voodoo or Hinduism or even Islam entail- in short, while they probably knew some basic tenets, that's not enough to make a strong argument that they accepted Christianity due to resemblence with said minority religion.

That, combined with the rest of the points I made above make up the most accurate information we have on the subject at present. I get the feeling you're in a little bit of a Christian apologist mode here, even without your elision of the actual violence involved in much (though obviously not all) conversion.
 

Mr. Somebody

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I am Swazi, meaning Zulus, Xhosas and Swazis have the same culture (they are Nguni) with only a few slight differences. Hell, Siswati is 98% the same as Zulu. That's a huge lie!

He thinks he knows more about your culture than you because he traveled on the internet to Google and read something. I apologize on his behalf because hes one of our coli posters here that likes to create demonic slants in favor of the gay community when he posts.
 

Dafunkdoc_Unlimited

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The Real said:
That, combined with the rest of the points I made above make up the most accurate information we have on the subject at present. I get the feeling you're in Christian apologist mode here...

:snoop:

I read your responses incorrectly. For some reason, I thought you were saying that most slaves were Muslims.

**Walks away**
 

The Real

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He thinks he knows more about your culture than you because he traveled on the internet to Google and read something. I apologize on his behalf because hes one of our coli posters here that likes to create demonic slants in favor of the gay community when he posts.

Why are you apologizing for me to someone who isn't even Zulu? I've actually been to and stayed in South Africa and Lesotho. I can speak some Zulu and still have friends over there. Most modern Zulu are heavily Christianized and unable to come to terms with some elements in their past without mythologization, just as with others like yourself. There are educated Zulu over there who can confirm that I'm not making those controversies up- I got those ideas from them, after all. :manny:
 

Mr. Somebody

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I've actually been to and stayed in South Africa. I can speak some Zulu and still have friends over there. Most modern Zulu are heavily Christianized and unable to come to terms with some elements in their past without mythologization, just as with others like yourself. There are educated Zulu over there who can confirm that I'm not making those controversies up- I got those ideas from them, after all. :manny:

Spreading demonic thoughts all over the world huh. I feel sorry for those people that interacted with you not even realizing you worship the devil :sadbron:
 

Blackking

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Why are you apologizing for me to someone who isn't even Zulu? I've actually been to and stayed in South Africa and Lesotho. I can speak some Zulu and still have friends over there. Most modern Zulu are heavily Christianized and unable to come to terms with some elements in their past without mythologization, just as with others like yourself. There are educated Zulu over there who can confirm that I'm not making those controversies up- I got those ideas from them, after all. :manny:
Even the Christians there maintain most of their prechristian belief systems and traditional customs.

10 million of what you consider uneducated are sitting over there I guess. :manny:

So Dr Sibusiso Sibisi and others like him were held back because of traditional belief systems and customs.
 

The Real

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Even the Christians there maintain most of their prechristian belief systems and traditional customs.

10 million of what you consider uneducated are sitting over there I guess. :manny:

That's not true. Most of the Christians I met had only a little connection to their pre-Christian roots, through things like ancestor worship. As for "educated," I mean people who look beyond what Christian history tells them about themselves. You can practice elements of your old traditions while still not knowing a lot about them. That's what most people do everywhere...
 

the mechanic

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I am Swazi, meaning Zulus, Xhosas and Swazis have the same culture (they are Nguni) with only a few slight differences. Hell, Siswati is 98% the same as Zulu. That's a huge lie!

:leostare: Which part is the lie though? If its the shaka zulu being gay part i cant say either way..But its disingenuous to act like the white man brought homosexuality to Africa.

The white man brought Homophobia to Africa as well as Racism that much is fact so all you posters who perpetuate this kind of intolerance as a "black" or "African" are just

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr247/mixlass/funny%20gifs/racc00n.gif

Kewning it up without being aware of it....and ironically yall are the same ones who call themselves christian and muslim..You follow the religion of the oppressor and share his prejudice

:ohhh:

Malcolm X said:
- "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing
 

Mowgli

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:leostare: Which part is the lie though? If its the shaka zulu being gay part i cant say either way..But its disingenuous to act like the white man brought homosexuality to Africa.

The white man brought Homophobia to Africa as well as Racism that much is fact so all you posters who perpetuate this kind of intolerance as a "black" or "African" are just

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr247/mixlass/funny%20gifs/racc00n.gif

Kewning it up without being aware of it....and ironically yall are the same ones who call themselves christian and muslim..You follow the religion of the oppressor and share his prejudice

:ohhh:

The white man brought and brings the celebration of homosexuality to the planet where cultures previously keep it as a dirty secret, outright persecution or something not mentioned. The cac wants the planet to be entrenched in fakkitry. Especially black people.
 

africanprince

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Why are you apologizing for me to someone who isn't even Zulu? I've actually been to and stayed in South Africa and Lesotho. I can speak some Zulu and still have friends over there. Most modern Zulu are heavily Christianized and unable to come to terms with some elements in their past without mythologization, just as with others like yourself. There are educated Zulu over there who can confirm that I'm not making those controversies up- I got those ideas from them, after all. :manny:


You might have a tiny idea about Zulu traditions and culture because you're probably a scholar BUT, I am a Swazi, living in Swaziland. Swazis and Zulus are the same (they speak the same languages with only small differences in some letters e.g, Swazis use t instead of the usual Z used in Zulu but the languages are similar at about 99%). We both practice Polygamy, We are a society dominated by patriarchy, pay dowry in the form of cattle as a brideprice, measure our wealth using the number of cattle we own we both have an annual reed dance ceremony called Umhlanga

Zululand - The Royal Reed Dance | KwaZulu-Natal Tourism http://kaliwise.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/umhlanga31.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ohQzq0ZPX.../s640/Umhlanga+-+pasha+Zwane+n%27+friends.jpg (swazi umhlanga)

we both have a first fruits ceremony called Incwala. The only difference is that unlike the Zulus, about 80 % of our population has preserved the culture due to the fact that Swaziland has an independent state for Swazis to live in while Modern day Zulus are just like you, they live in a secular multicultural society in South Africa where their King has very little power to have "real subjects".

Back to your false point "HLOBONGA does not mean homosexuality. It means sleeping with a girl when you're both not married. The Zulus who supposedly gave you this wrong information live in modernized South Africa and can barely speak their own language.

With that said, there is no word defining homosexuality in Zulu or Swazi, except that today there is a vernacular slang language that came about through cultural difussion between native South African tribes with the Boers, English, Italians, Spanish etc called "Tsotsi Taal". This language is spoken by young people (<40 years old) in the street and they refer to homosexuality as being a "SITABANI"


Homosexuality has never existed in Zulu Culture and I'm an Atheist.
 
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