tough times in 2013 due to tax hikes and rising prices.

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

What we are up against is the end zone (or uncharted territory) of development

Its a tough situation

Folks now are accustomed to the prosperity that came with the growth of development so they don't have the drive to keep pushing like our parents did

Jobs our parents had can't exist in this economy so we have to grind twice as hard just to stay afloat

And of course we are up against other economies w/the hunger we had as they are where we were

Its a real conundrum braes. I don't know how we can fix it or what lies ahead. But I know for DAMN sure the answer isn't to try to roll back the clock. You can't get first world prosperity from a third world economy, it just doesn't fukking work. The way forward will have to involve us collectively becoming more competitive and driven. I don't think there's a govt program that can do that, it has to be a voluntary culture change.

 

[Yuzo Lightheart]

this thread turned out really well good points from everyone

 

[OsO]

As usual, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop calling people idiots, calm down, and listen to reason for a sec. We didn't stop manufacturing stuff. Our manufacturing output has been on a steady incline for decades. And it's increased sharply in the last 4 years.

We just manufacture different products and do it with more automation and less manpower. That's obviously very problematic, but it's a result of the natural progression of the global economy. There's no space in our economy to make toilet seats and tables anymore. No corporations is going to keep jobs in America and pay their workers exorbitantly more wages and benefits, when they can drastically cut their labor costs by manufacturing overseas. And large-scale government protectionism would ruin our competitiveness and increase costs which would lead to poor economic growth.

We're now competing with workers in China, India, Brazil, Singapore, and elsewhere. There's no real solution to this problem of lack of decent-paying everyman and everywoman work other than people need to step their education and skills game u (and government needs to have a role in helping to foster that), and if you don't, you're going to get left in the dust. I think it may be beneficial to raise tariffs in certain areas or on certain products, but every economist regardless of ideology knows protectionism as an overall approach isn't a viable option in today's world. If you're running a startup businesses, venture capitalists will look at you like and walk out of the room if you tell them you're not willing to outsource any work.

The uncomfortable truth that a lot of people don't want to seem to accept is that we've gotten spoiled and enjoyed living conditions far better than almost everyone else in the world. That's flattening out now. We can't maintain this standard for ever. Other nations are gonna come up. A lot of people want to invent boogeymen be it the Federal Reserve, or secret elites or whoever because they don't want to accept that we're going to fall off some because when you're on top for over 150 years, there's nowhere to go but down. America will still be aight though...just not as dominant.

I don't agree.

I think those manufacuring jobs are still essential and very relevant to our economy. As americans we consume a huge amount of goods and services but most of the goods we consume are made in other countries, which is a huge economic folly. In fact countries used to go to war to protect their trade industries, now america just lets corps give the jobs away. Its a total reversal of how we became a successful economy in the first place.

And its the govts job to regulate the corporations and force them to keep the manufacturing process inside american borders. The outsourcing taking place isn't automated machines making products, its other people making our products, which could just as easily be americans if our govt were regulating correctly.

And in regards to protectionism the govt is very active in that area, but instead of protecting legit businesses our govt now protects the big corporations and the banks. its the govts job to set the economic policies in such a way that benefits the country as a whole, but instead the laws have been set to benefit the few.

The trillions of products being consumed on a daily basis by americans are not being produced by americans when they easily could be, that's the main issue.

We can still have a high standard of living if the political economy laws were set correctly. They're not set correctly though, in fact they're backwards.

All products being consumed by americans should be made in america by other americans. That's how a country generates wealth for itself. That's how we did things when we first started, its how we became the most powerful economy in the world, and its the same blueprint the successful countries are now following. Brazil, india, etc, you think they're allowing mass outsourcing in their economies? Naw, not on ya life.

But right now the majority of the products we consume are made in other countries by foreign entities, so we don't see any of that money. That's a huge problem and any real business economist knows that. The wealth of nations my man...

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

As americans we consume a huge amount of goods and services but most of the goods we consume are made in other countries, which is a huge economic folly.

Link?

That's how we did things when we first started, its how we became the most powerful economy in the world, and its the same blueprint the successful countries are now following. Brazil, india, etc, you think they're allowing mass outsourcing in their economies? Naw, not on ya life.

Link?

But right now the majority of the products we consume are made in other countries by foreign entities, so we don't see any of that money.

Link?

That's a huge problem and any real business economist knows that. The wealth of nations my man...

Link?

 

[Brown_Pride]

How Much of US Consumables Are Made in China? | The Big Picture

seams we're manufacturing just fine...?

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

How Much of US Consumables Are Made in China? | The Big Picture

seams we're manufacturing just fine...?

That's why I asked Leyet for a link. I already knew over 80% of the products we consume are made in America. I'm just illustrating the point that he's always saying factually wrong stuff that he doesn't research.

 

[Brown_Pride]

That's why I asked Leyet for a link. I already knew over 80% of the products we consume are made in America. I'm just illustrating the point that he's always saying factually wrong stuff that he doesn't research.

i know what you were doing, i just didn't expect him to respond, i got you don't worry

 

[Spin]

They need to make some type of federal program for these trade schools. In NYC they have APEX and other schools where people can learn construction, a/c, plumbing, etc. These job's will always be around in some form or another, but it shouldn't cost 20g's for a 6 month degree. People want to bytch about non skilled workers, but when that un-skilled worker wants to better himself he has to go knee deep in debt. This multi-tasking bs they have been pushing for years is a myth. Learn one thing damn good and you can get paid for it.

 

[OsO]

How Much of US Consumables Are Made in China? | The Big Picture

seams we're manufacturing just fine...?

No we are not manufacturing fine when you have millions of americans in poverty and out of work when they COULD be making a living wage making the products that are currently made in foreign countries.

I'm also skeptical of the accuracy of that graph. I'd like to see a more detailed breakdown of who is manufacturing what, but I'm positive that 8/10 products in my home do not say made in america.

You don't outsource the manufacuring process of your national economy and its the governments resposibility to regulate the corporations. That's a huge economic mismanagement on the part of the govt, period.

 

[Brown_Pride]

No we are not manufacturing fine when you have millions of americans in poverty and out of work when they COULD be making a living wage making the products that are currently made in foreign countries.

I'm also skeptical of the accuracy of that graph. I'd like to see a more detailed breakdown of who is manufacturing what, but I'm positive that 8/10 products in my home do not say made in america.

You don't outsource the manufacuring process of your national economy and its the governments resposibility to regulate the corporations. That's a huge economic mismanagement on the part of the govt, period.

check the sources on the graph if you'd like.

Of course americans could be working those jobs, but getting those jobs back into the country has blow back as well, and has the potential to destroy more jobs in the long run as prices go up and consumption goes down.

I'm just saying the % of stuff NOT manufactured here is within an acceptable range for me.

Plus China is building on a bubble and at some point that has to fall out, you can only subject your people to the shyt they are subjecting their people to before something gives.

We definitely need to up our educational game. You want viable solution for the future, education is that solution.

 

[88m3]

 

[OsO]

check the sources on the graph if you'd like.

im more interested in the actual breakdown of which goods and services are produced in america and which ones we get through foreign entities, than the numerical accuracy of the graph. one thing ive learned about statistics is they are easily manipulated, and in cases like these it's valuable to have the qualitative data that supplements the graph.

im also interested in the value of the products and services originating in the US versus the products that originate from foreign entities. certain products whose value is higher than typical definitely need to be produced by american workers inside the US.

all our cars, televisions, computers, machinery, cell phones, etc., have such a high economic multiplier when they go from raw materials to finished product, that its critical we have american workers making those products.

but these are further areas of research ill have to pursue when i get the chance

Of course americans could be working those jobs, but getting those jobs back into the country has blow back as well, and has the potential to destroy more jobs in the long run as prices go up and consumption goes down.

but if we stay on this current economic course prices are going up anyway, and consumption is going to decrease anyway.

but if people have good jobs they spend more money which stimulates the economy.

way more pros than cons to bringing those jobs back.

I'm just saying the % of stuff NOT manufactured here is within an acceptable range for me.

and im saying forget the percentages, look at the reality. if we were at or near 100% employment in the country then sure, outsource the jobs and wealth.

but when i see people in the US lacking both jobs AND wealth, then it doesnt make sense to allow jobs to be outsourced, because we are essentially outsourcing both jobs and wealth, which are both desperately needed here.

Plus China is building on a bubble and at some point that has to fall out, you can only subject your people to the shyt they are subjecting their people to before something gives.

every country has their own economic problems... that doesnt get us off the hook for solving OUR economic issues.

and the bolded could just as easily be said about the united states

We definitely need to up our educational game. You want viable solution for the future, education is that solution.

i definitely support that as one prong of a several prong strategy, but i have no doubts the approach to solving our social/economic/political issues are going to have to be multi-dimensional by necessity.

 

[Brown_Pride]

im more interested in the actual breakdown of which goods and services are produced in america and which ones we get through foreign entities, than the numerical accuracy of the graph. one thing ive learned about statistics is they are easily manipulated, and in cases like these it's valuable to have the qualitative data that supplements the graph.

im also interested in the value of the products and services originating in the US versus the products that originate from foreign entities. certain products whose value is higher than typical definitely need to be produced by american workers inside the US.

all our cars, televisions, computers, machinery, cell phones, etc., have such a high economic multiplier when they go from raw materials to finished product, that its critical we have american workers making those products.

but these are further areas of research ill have to pursue when i get the chance



but if we stay on this current economic course prices are going up anyway, and consumption is going to decrease anyway.

but if people have good jobs they spend more money which stimulates the economy.

I get the sentiment but the reality just isn't there. We have a minimum wage in the USA, assuming it's LOW $7/hr vs $7 a week....that's something we cannot compete with nor would consumers want to. Your high end stuff in particular.

There's a lot of theory in how the economy and prices would react to a change like that, as you said the margin on some of these things going from raw to ipad are pretty high. While there would be more people with cash on hand there would be more Poor minimum wage workers with cash on hand and consider this...
Right now *high end electronic device* MMR of $300. actual cost ... what $167 (How much does it cost Apple to build an iPhone 5? | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News) (Apple pays an estimated $207 to build 16GB iPhone 5, report says) here's the kicker these are for iphone right, they also don't include labor...want to know why? It's so damn cheap. Now tack on an additional charges for minimum wage labor to the cost of a phone and all of a sudden the price of the phone goes up drastically, the ability for people to buy said phone go down, and while you've created a product at home and provided jobs you've created an item that the people making can't afford.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/b...queezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) - decent article on why companies go abroad.

way more pros than cons to bringing those jobs back.

i don't know, my gut tells me they may negate eachother...but again admittedly there are so many damn nobs and factors that adjusting one knob could have detrimental or beneficial affects on many...

and im saying forget the percentages, look at the reality. if we were at or near 100% employment in the country then sure, outsource the jobs and wealth.

but when i see people in the US lacking both jobs AND wealth, then it doesnt make sense to allow jobs to be outsourced, because we are essentially outsourcing both jobs and wealth, which are both desperately needed here.

you're not going to create wealth at 7.50/hr. the folks "allowing" the jobs to be outsourced are the companies. YOu don't like it BUY AMERICAN.

every country has their own economic problems... that doesnt get us off the hook for solving OUR economic issues.

and the bolded could just as easily be said about the united states

absolutely it could and should be said about the USA.

i definitely support that as one prong of a several prong strategy, but i have no doubts the approach to solving our social/economic/political issues are going to have to be multi-dimensional by necessity.

realistically this is the only viable solution. We need an informed populous to help steer the country in a positive direction. For far to long have we let this thing be run by a few people who's only goals have been the perpetuity of their own fortunes.

 

[OsO]

I get the sentiment but the reality just isn't there. We have a minimum wage in the USA, assuming it's LOW $7/hr vs $7 a week....that's something we cannot compete with nor would consumers want to. Your high end stuff in particular.

There's a lot of theory in how the economy and prices would react to a change like that, as you said the margin on some of these things going from raw to ipad are pretty high. While there would be more people with cash on hand there would be more Poor minimum wage workers with cash on hand and consider this...
Right now *high end electronic device* MMR of $300. actual cost ... what $167 (How much does it cost Apple to build an iPhone 5? | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News) (Apple pays an estimated $207 to build 16GB iPhone 5, report says) here's the kicker these are for iphone right, they also don't include labor...want to know why? It's so damn cheap. Now tack on an additional charges for minimum wage labor to the cost of a phone and all of a sudden the price of the phone goes up drastically, the ability for people to buy said phone go down, and while you've created a product at home and provided jobs you've created an item that the people making can't afford.
(Apple, America and a Squeezed Middle Class - NYTimes.com) - decent article on why companies go abroad.

i don't know, my gut tells me they may negate eachother...but again admittedly there are so many damn nobs and factors that adjusting one knob could have detrimental or beneficial affects on many...


you're not going to create wealth at 7.50/hr. the folks "allowing" the jobs to be outsourced are the companies. YOu don't like it BUY AMERICAN.
absolutely it could and should be said about the USA.


realistically this is the only viable solution. We need an informed populous to help steer the country in a positive direction. For far to long have we let this thing be run by a few people who's only goals have been the perpetuity of their own fortunes.

thats the thing though, we have to pay that extra $7-$15 dollars/hour to get folks up to the $15-$22/hr range they need to make a decent living.

50-60 hours at $15-$22/hr is enough to sustain if you not in a high rent place like nyc or san fran. if youre in a moderate size city with moderate rent rates you can really making that much. especially if you have two people working and making that much.

and youre probably asking where is that extra money coming from to pay these people the higher wages, and its coming from where it should come from, and those are the folks who are taking a disproportionate amount of the income, in this case the corporations. right now the way its set up the pie is not being divided up justly. so instead of apple taking home $372 for every iphone sold they only take home $312 or whatever the numbers would be.

cuz here's the thing...as a govt when you see something happening that is detrimental to the society, you step in and act responsibly and you regulate that shyt. thats the governments main job, to provide structure and protection for the people. and right now the behavior or corporations and financial institutions are creating huge burdens for anyone living in this society, but especially american taxpayers. the govt aint got no money, we're the govts money.

so as a govt it's your resposibility to enforce with corporations that if they want to be an american-based corporation they need to manufacture in the united states. you either tax outsourcing to the point where its no longer economically viable, or eliminate it as an option outright and make it illegal. thats how you supposed to regulate shh.

so if corporations want the privilege of doing business in the united states they follow these rules. if not their business gets treated like a foreign business, who naturally are subjected to even more stricter and limiting laws.

and if corporations try get the money back through the sale and inflate the prices and put the burden of the manufacturing hike on the consumer, they'll pay for it in the marketplace because their prices will be too high and people wont buy their product, especially if, as a govt, you are creating an environment where there can be quality competition.

but in order for that to be successful the govt has to stop catering to big business interests and regulate them like they would any other entity.

as it stands now more times than not the government regulates ON THE SIDE OF BIG CORPORATIONS. its actually crime in it's highest form we just dont see it like that. using the mechanisms of the government to rob society of its wealth? if im a criminal fukk a ak47 and a ski mask to get money, give me a city councilman and a mayor. thats how legit gangsters do it, in a suit and a tie baby. shmoov... gone with the money before the sucka even knows hes a sucka.

and public education is always going to come back to the government as well, so as you see until we address the issue of irresponsible/incompetent government, none of these issues, public education, economic policy, military policy, are getting fixed.