Thread on how china became a science superpower according to the economist.

[Spence]

I can believe it, just take a look at any math competition and it’s full of Chinese dudes.

 

[IIVI]

This.

Politics is in the way.

Lol at the slow people in here thinking this is about being pro China. Always with the surface level thought process.

Yeah, the problem is our system of Checks and Balances didn't account for looney ass Republican MAGA movement, modern times of productive diversity and brittle egos a few hundred years ago. On top of 1,000+ pages of complicated tax code. shyt is just an outright mess.

 

[Amestafuu (Emeritus)]

Yeah, the problem is our system of Checks and Balances didn't account for looney ass Republican MAGA movement, modern times of productive diversity and brittle egos a few hundred years ago. On top of 1,000+ pages of complicated tax code. shyt is just an outright mess.

Nobody accounted for peak anti intellectualism after years.of scientific advances

 

[IIVI]

Nobody accounted for peak anti intellectualism after years.of scientific advances

Yup. On top of that people learned how to game the system and put a bunch of confusing loopholes in there to solidify it. Now good luck undoing it.

The execution is a travesty as well: a bunch of old people not understanding the Bills while other people load Bills up with all types of unrelated shyt. These cats aren't even reading anything and falling asleep.

It's a disaster.

People want to talk about other country's cutting corners, well look at the shyt that's going on right in our own government.

Loading up Bills with a bunch of unrelated shyt to force it to pass isn't cutting corners? That's just a really insane case of shytty scope creep if you ask an engineer.

The recent bill about mandatory military volunteering, why is anti-DEI and abortion included in it for example?

House Republicans pass key military bill with new limits on abortion and DEI initiatives

The bill passed mostly along party lines after Democrats rebelled against a policy that would bar the Pentagon from funding travel expenses for service members to get an abortion.

www.nbcnews.com

WASHINGTON — The Republican-controlled House passed a military policy bill Friday that includes a series of conservative provisions targeting abortion and diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives at the Pentagon, drawing fierce objections from Democrats who mostly rejected it.

The National Defense Authorization Act passed 217-199, mostly along party lines, with just six Democrats voting for it and three conservatives breaking with the GOP to oppose it.

“This year’s NDAA will refocus our military on its core mission of defending America and its interests across the globe, fund the deployment of the National Guard to the southwest border, expedite innovation and reduce the acquisition timeline for new weaponry, support our allies, and strengthen our nuclear posture and missile defense programs,” Speaker Mike Johnson, R-La., said in a statement.

It includes a 19.5% pay raise for junior enlisted service members and bigger allowances for food and housing.

But the bill was also amended to include a provision that would “prohibit the Secretary of Defense from paying for or reimbursing expenses relating to abortion services” — undoing a policy the Biden administration put in place in 2022. It echoes last year’s widely condemned protest by Sen. Tommy Tuberville, R-Ala., who blocked military promotions for months in a failed bid to pressure the Pentagon to revoke its policy of paying travel expenses related to abortions.

While the NDAA passed out of the Armed Services Committee on an overwhelmingly bipartisan 57-1 vote, House Republicans then added several conservative amendments along party lines over the last two days once the bill made it to the House floor, making it controversial. That includes an amendment that would permanently freeze hiring for diversity, equity and inclusion (or DEI) jobs within the Defense Department and eliminate the department’s position of chief diversity officer. It would also bar the Tricare health care program from providing gender transition surgeries.

“Unfortunately, House Republicans are using the NDAA — historically bipartisan legislation to support our nation’s defense — to restrict servicewomen from traveling to receive reproductive health care, including emergency medical care that could save their lives or their ability to have children,” said Rep. Abigail Spanberger, D-Va., whose district includes many service members. “I’d venture to guess that very few women serving in our military were consulted about this proposal. We should be focused on strengthening our national security, not restricting the freedoms of our troops.”

Rep. Pat Ryan, D-N.Y., said: “It’s a disgrace. I think, especially as somebody that served, to take a bill that should be about preparing for — and preventing — actual war and make it a culture war bill is really a disservice to our national security.”
The final defense policy will require a compromise between the House and Senate that can pass both chambers and be signed into law by President Joe Biden.
“Unsurprisingly, the legislation coming out of the House today is loaded with anti-LGBTQ, anti-choice, anti-environment, and other divisive amendments guaranteed not to pass the Senate,” Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., said in a statement.
Sen. Tammy Duckworth, D-Ill., also said the abortion provision is dead on arrival in the Democratic-led Senate, which is advancing a different NDAA without the culture war amendments.

​

“That’s going to be a problem for our servicemen and women who are stationed in places where — they go there because we send them there,” Duckworth said. “I had a miscarriage, for example, while I was still serving, and I had to have a procedure in order to continue with my IVF journey. I would not have had access to that.”
Rep. Beth Van Duyne, R-Texas, the author of the abortion provision, defended it. “We should not have put that burden on our DOD budget,” she said. “But the president decided to do that with an executive order, so we had to take care of it in legislation.”

The Democrats’ House campaign arm, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, quickly jumped on the amendment.
“If it’s a day that ends in ‘Y,’ House Republicans will vote for national abortion restrictions,” said Viet Shelton, a spokesperson for the DCCC. “They are more interested in attacking the reproductive freedoms of our country’s service members than ensuring our troops have the support they need, and voters won’t forget how wrong these attacks are when they head to the polls in November.”

The three Republicans who opposed the legislation were Reps. Marjorie Taylor Greene, R-Ga., Thomas Massie, R-Ky., and Matt Rosendale, R-Mont. The six Democrats who voted yes were Reps. Henry Cuellar, D-Texas, Don Davis, D-N.C., Jared Golden, R-Maine, Vicente Gonzalez, D-Texas, Mary Peltola, D-Alaska, and Marie Gluesenkamp Perez, D-Wash.

Both the House and Senate will need to pass the same version of the NDAA for it to become law. Rep. Chip Roy, R-Texas, warned that many Republicans will vote against the NDAA if the abortion provision and other conservative priorities are stripped out.

“If the Senate pulls that out, that certainly imperils support from, I think, a large chunk of our conference,” he said. “And so I hope we will fight for those things and try to get our Defense Department back away from those social engineering issues and more towards the issues that are just focused on our national defense.”

Rep. Tony Gonzales, R-Texas, a Navy veteran, said he’s proud of the bill but that it is “only step one” in a process.
“We’ve got to fight and make sure that a lot of the things that we worked hard on the House stay in there,” he said. “But I think there’s a long road ahead.”

It's just really dumb with no separation of concerns.

 

[WIA20XX]

I just went through dudes twitter.

Is it normal to post so many things about China? Like... shyts obsessive

For an economist? Yes.

I follow quite a few economists, and actually read the reaction threads before I read the original.

The economists that make the news,(relative to other economists) like this guy, are part of a political discussion, and not so much an academic one.

 

[Fillerguy]

He’s a French Chinese propagandist. China is unstoppable, the west (America) is falling, Brics, Taiwan, Ukraine etc the whole bag .


In reality

China’s clampdown on fake-paper factories picks up speed​

As part of a misconduct crackdown, Chinese funders are penalizing researchers who commission sham journal articles from ‘paper mills’, but some say the measures still don’t go far enough.


Although China is producing more top-tier work, it still produces a vast amount of lower-quality science too. On average, papers from China tend to have lower impact, as measured by citations, than those from America, Britain or the eu. And while the chosen few universities have advanced, mid-level universities have been left behind. China’s second-tier institutions still produce work that is of relatively poor quality compared with their equivalents in Europe or America. “While China has fantastic quality at the top level, it’s on a weak base,” explains Caroline Wagner, professor of science policy at Ohio State University.

This is like shopping for Chinese products, you can find them at different price ranges, and they come in different levels of qualities. There are indeed paper mills in China and low quality research works, which is also a well known issue in China

Even if we dismiss half of all Chinese STEM graduates as cheats and unqualified for their jobs, China still has twice as many qualified graduates as the US, then you have to consider that many graduates from US universities are Chinese nationals, too.

China’s clampdown on fake-paper factories picks up speed

As part of a misconduct crackdown, Chinese funders are penalizing researchers who commission sham journal articles from ‘paper mills’, but some say the measures still don’t go far enough.

www.nature.com

This the same China where most academic papers are thrown out?

Here's another Economist article from this year: Fake Research?!

Why fake research is rampant in China

Eleven students aim to set a better example

www.economist.com

China cracks down after investigation finds massive peer-review fraud | Science | AAAS

https://www.science.org/content/article/china-cracks-down-after-investigation-finds-massive-peer-review-fraud

China having among the most retracted papers in the world last year:
More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record (nature.com)

More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record

The number of articles being retracted rose sharply this year. Integrity experts say that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

www.nature.com

And my favorite video on the subject

This doesn't contradict anything posted about China. Those American based companies are thriving because America invests and caters to corporations/private sector tech. China appears to be going all in on scientific research......
Whereas the US has been suffering from a replication crisis for decades

Replication crisis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The only studies we fund are the ones backed by the companies you posted. This inspired extremely biased research that driven by profit. Where funding for more efficient fuel uses is more profitable than find fuel alternatives despite evidence showing our oil reserves will be drained in the next generation or so

 

[IIVI]

Funniest shyt is when you got to a site like Codeforces which is Super Leetcode on steroids:

China on top by a large margin:

Country ratings - Codeforces

Codeforces. Programming competitions and contests, programming community

codeforces.com

Funny thing is U.S is #2, but look at the top U.S names:
1. Benjamin Qi from M.I.T
3. Andrew He from M.I.T
7. Yi Du
9. Richard Qi
10. Neal Wu
11. Hankai Zhang from M.I.T
13. Siyong Huang
14. Gabriel Wu

More than half of the top 15 for the United States, some people didn't include their real names but have anime avatars.

They even got a Jiangqi Dai from Samoa who's #7 in the entire world

India at #22

 

[Dorian Breh]

Funniest shyt is when you got to a site like Codeforces which is Super Leetcode on steroids:

China on top by a large margin:

Country ratings - Codeforces

Codeforces. Programming competitions and contests, programming community

codeforces.com

Funny thing is U.S is #2, but look at the top U.S names:
1. Benjamin Qi from M.I.T
3. Andrew He from M.I.T
4. Dilhan Salgado from Carnegie Mellon
5. Crystally (no background, but has anime avatar)
7. Yi Du
9. Richard Qi
10. Neal Wu

Plenty of American Chinese have no love for the CCP.

The CCP is some next level self hatred.

 

[IIVI]

This doesn't contradict anything posted about China. Those American based companies are thriving because America invests and caters to corporations/private sector tech. China appears to be going all in on scientific research......
Whereas the US has been suffering from a replication crisis for decades

Replication crisis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The only studies we fund are the ones backed by the companies you posted. This inspired extremely biased research that driven by profit. Where funding for more efficient fuel uses is more profitable than find fuel alternatives despite evidence showing our oil reserves will be drained in the next generation or so

I was going to say, even that youtube video in that post you're replying to was from an Anti-Chinese influencer who claims to be about tech, however has no engineering or technical background but rather a business one. Just basically grifting to their echo chamber.

 

[Mister Terrific]

This doesn't contradict anything posted about China. Those American based companies are thriving because America invests and caters to corporations/private sector tech. China appears to be going all in on scientific research......
Whereas the US has been suffering from a replication crisis for decades

Utter nonsense.

The US has maintained its lead in chip design and research and development, led by companies like Intel (INTC) and Nvidia (NVDA), but it manufactures just 10% of the global chip supply. Meanwhile, 100% of all advanced chips are developed overseas, mostly by TSMC (TSM) in Taiwan.

Neuffer said the scale of investments made since 2022 has put the US in a stronger position to compete for advanced chip manufacturing, with the country set to capture 28% of the market for chips below 10 nanometers by 2032. A smaller nanometer size indicates a more powerful chip.

US chip manufacturing capacity projected to triple by 2032, fueled by CHIPS Act: Industry leader

US chip manufacturing capacity is projected to triple by 2032, according to a new report published by the Semiconductor Industry Association, signaling progress nearly two years after President Biden signed the CHIPS and Science Act into law.

finance.yahoo.com

China doesn’t even have the manufacturing capability to produce advanced microchips yet.

​

Where funding for more efficient fuel uses is more profitable than find fuel alternatives despite evidence showing our oil reserves will be drained in the next generation or so

Source?

 

[Mister Terrific]

I was going to say, even that youtube video in that post you're replying to was from an Anti-Chinese influencer who claims to be about tech, however has no engineering or technical background but rather a business one. Just basically grifting to their echo chamber.

He’s right and you have no idea what you are talking about per usual

China doesn’t have the manufacturing capability to produce high end chips

Why can’t China make its own chips?

Answer (1 of 18): Let me correct one problem. At present, China can produce chips, basically all chips. These chips can be used in daily life, such as computers, mobile phones, TVs, air conditioners, etc. You should not ask "China" Why can’t we produce chips?” Instead, we should ask “Why can’t Ch...

www.quora.com

 

[Mister Terrific]

News] Huawei Reportedly Acknowledges China’s Semiconductor Development May Have Plateaued, Facing Challenges Below 3.5nm​

The ongoing tightening of US restrictions on China’s access to advanced chips and production equipment may have significant impact on China’s semiconductor development progress. According to a report from Liberty Times, a top executive at Huawei, a Chinese tech giant, admitted that China’s ambitious semiconductor efforts may have reached a plateau. This statement has surprised many in the industry, as China has consistently expressed confidence in its semiconductor growth capabilities.

During the Mobile Computility Network Conference in Suzhou, China on June 9th, Zhang Ping’an, the Chief Executive Officer of Huawei Cloud Services, expressed concern that China, due to US sanctions, is unable to purchase 3.5nm chip equipment.

Recently, Huawei successfully mass-produced 7nm chips without using lithography technology. This development has surprised the global semiconductor market and has led to speculation that Huawei may soon also mass-produce 5nm chips.

Per a report from Business Korea, Zhang further noted that manufacturing 3.5 nm semiconductors necessitates EUV lithography machines, which Huawei is reportedly working on independently. However, overcoming U.S. and Dutch patents to internalize this technology is considered highly challenging.

Previously, as per a report from Chinese media outlet “Phoenix New Media,” Zhang Ping’an also pointed out that the semiconductor industry in China currently cannot directly compete with developed countries in cutting-edge processes, such as 3nm and 5nm. This is an indisputable fact, but it does not mean that China’s semiconductor industry has no prospects for development. Furthermore, Zhang believed that the semiconductor industry in China should be more focused on deepening efforts in relatively mature processes, such as 7nm, to enhance product performance and reliability, meeting the needs of the market and users.

Moreover, some Chinese manufacturers are exploring ways to overcome these restrictions. Notably, Chinese DRAM manufacturer ChangXin Memory Technologies is reportedly preparing to mass-produce 18.5nm DRAM to circumvent US sanctions on DRAM equipment below 18nm.

[News] Huawei Reportedly Acknowledges China’s Semiconductor Development May Have Plateaued, Facing Challenges Below 3.5nm | TrendForce Insights

The ongoing tightening of US restrictions on China's access to advanced chips and production equipment may have significant impact on China's semicond...

www.trendforce.com

Science Super power

 

[IIVI]

He’s right and you have no idea what you are talking about per usual

China doesn’t have the manufacturing capability to produce high end chips

Why can’t China make its own chips?

Answer (1 of 18): Let me correct one problem. At present, China can produce chips, basically all chips. These chips can be used in daily life, such as computers, mobile phones, TVs, air conditioners, etc. You should not ask "China" Why can’t we produce chips?” Instead, we should ask “Why can’t Ch...

www.quora.com

You're the weirdest foreign affairs expert here breh

Cat acts like he knows what's going on in every country

Posting about China's chips, but both future Electrical Engineers I got to school with and working professionals say China/Asia is a hotspot for them because we actually have industry knowledge and see jobs ship over there every day. You can even see that on subreddits. Cats I personally know deal with that shyt for job hunts. Where's your expertise on that? If China isn't a factor, try telling to to my engineering people who have thought of and actually did move overseas or seeing their work get outsourced. People have literally advised others to get a Master's Degree in Electrical/Computer Engineering and look at working in China.

 

[Wig Twistin Season]

Some of y’all are in here giving China neck. Meanwhile they don’t fukk with you black man.

Chinese museum accused of racism over photos pairing Africans with animals | China | The Guardian

More than 141,000 people visit the exhibit in Wuhan before it is eventually removed after sparking complaints from Africans

amp.theguardian.com

Chinese Museum Pulls Exhibit Comparing Animals to Black People (Published 2017)

A photography exhibit in Wuhan was criticized for placing images of wild animals side by side with black Africans, a juxtaposition many saw as racist.

www.nytimes.com

Not every enemy of your enemy is a friend.

 

[WIA20XX]

Arnaud is a business guy, not an economist.
He's just commenting on an article written by economists, at the mag call "The Economist"

Here's an actual economist breaking down this article

Is the West falling behind in science?

China is now the leader in applied physical sciences. How can the U.S. and its allies catch up?

www.noahpinion.blog

Now, these numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt. Measuring the impact of papers by looking at how many other papers cite them can be a biased measure of true impact — you can have a bunch of researchers who all cite each other copiously and thus inflate the metric. Qiu, Steinwender, and Azoulay have a recent paper in which they argue that this phenomenon is especially common in China:

You can read the rest of Noah's take at your leisure.

The thing to take away from this is not that China is gonna crush the US/The West with great papers and superior technology - which is the underlying premise - but that China is 4x the size of the US and produces 4X the papers.

There are some real problems - they cite each other, and it's all in Chinese. They might be wrecking shop science wise, but it's in Chinese.
They come here to study, Americans don't learn Chinese and then go to China to study. (Americans could though...)

As for the rest,

The US and the West could spend a lot more on science and engineering - but as anybody in STEM will tell you - talk is cheap.
Most college level STEM is designed to weed HS nerds out.
And be it post grad work or getting a job - in many (if not most fields), it's more about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

Just retaining that base of kids that want to do STEM throughout the process - would at least double.

The most common statistic cited around the attrition rate for engineering students is that roughly 50 percent change majors or drop out before graduation.Apr 10, 2024

and

Just over half (52%) of all engineering graduates end up working in a STEM field, and only about 1 in 4 actually become engineers.

Understanding how American education works and how that ties into the job market, and how that translates further up the line...

I'm already wasting my breath tbh...