Thomas Sowell: Welfare makes excuses for things that are wrong.

[Theraflu]

Pinpointing welfare as the single reason for black disenfranchisement is lazy and short-sighted. Most black people aren't on welfare and never have been, and yet, we still don't have much of a concrete, concentrated economic foundation

Alot of people of fail to get off of welfare are plaqued with the same problem as most all Americans: Stagnant or stunted social mobility

This current system needs people at the bottom. Welfare has little to do with black people failing as a group

Particularly black people under 35. I really most emphasise that most black people under 35 have never even thought of being on welfare yet they are still going through similar income and wealth patterns that their parents did.

I also find it intriguing how people go on about welfare and black on black crime yet noone talks about the fact that black graduates (who didn' take welfare, who went to school) recieve the same level of jobs (if they get one) as white high school drop outs.

Or the percentage of black people riddled with debt who took out loans to educate themselves and work hard and have somehow still ended up disenfranchised.

I don't get why these people like Thomas Sowell never talk about that....

I guess it would be too uncomfortable...

 

[No_bammer_weed]

White poverty and black poverty are the same thing. Media just demonizes one while being mum on the other.

And big business loves welfare because it bolsters their profits. I think in 2013 Walmart's profits were about equal to what it took in from products purchased by welfare.

None of this changes the fact that welfare w/no programs to help folks transition off it into employment doesn't do much but deepen the cycles of poverty. At the minimum welfare should be some kind of work to welfare program; ideally IMO govt would be paying people to complete their education and either get degrees or learn trades.

Racism and economic policy have deepened poverty. Period.

You heard of the Clinton welfare reform of 1996, right? It was designed to do just what you said in your last paragraph, but it doesnt address the intersection of historical racism and economics. Its was simply designed to placate racist whites, and it went as planned.

Here's an example. Gentrification. Why is gentrification so powerful?

Well because of redlining and the fact that blacks werent able to buy homes (either in their neighborhoods or elsewhere) or invest in their own communities, so they arent able to reap the benefits and property value increases when economic development occurs. They are renters, so the rent goes up; they move out (remember how blacks are discriminated against in prospective employment so they generally dont get the job which Ive already spoken about), so they just get pushed off into other poor areas and the systemic cycle continues. So even if good paying jobs do come black people's way, they have no true ability to capitalize. Thats just a small part of the economic virus against poor black people.

Address consequences like these and please stop with the cheap welfare cop outs.

One.

 

[ignorethis]

Okay mr go by the numbers, lets see those numbers.

Lets assume that yes in fact the black family has been falling apart more in the last 40 years.

The black family is (pre recession) the richest and most powerful it has ever been, statistically. In fact, black people are better off now than they were in the 60s in every single measurable statistical category

So why can't I, according to your conclusion, make the lonk that it was the black family holding black people back, and once we get rid of it black people will continue to get richer?

You see my brother, just because thongs appear to be happening at the same time, and appear to be related, does not mean they are caused by one or the other. Its called correlation and causation.

lol really

Keep in mind this isn't separate by race and blacks usually do worst than the average, so it's safe the say blacks aren't much richer than they we're then, if we're lucky we're breaking even.

Then include the fact of higher violent crime than the whole 1900-1960 period, and higher children born out of wedlock and in single family homes, when it's is a fact that children in these conditions underachieved when compared to their peers not In these conditions.

But yea, blacks are doing better now

 

[TooLazyToMakeUp1]

What social factors would you consider? Because I bet many of them ultimately boil down to (or can be ameliorated by) individual choices.

I was talking about social services being neglected when planning an economy

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Racism and economic policy have deepened poverty. Period.

You heard of the Clinton welfare reform of 1996, right? It was designed to do just what you said in your last paragraph, but it doesnt address the intersection of historical racism and economics. Its was simply designed to placate racist whites, and it went as planned.

Here's an example. Gentrification. Why is gentrification so powerful?

Well because of redlining and the fact that blacks werent able to buy homes (either in their neighborhoods or elsewhere) or invest in their own communities, so they arent able to reap the benefits and property value increases when economic development occurs. They are renters, so the rent goes up; they move out (remember how blacks are discriminated against in prospective employment so they generally dont get the job which Ive already spoken about), so they just get pushed off into other poor areas and the systemic cycle continues. So even if good paying jobs do come black people's way, they have no true ability to capitalize. Thats just a small part of the economic virus against poor black people.

Address consequences like these and please stop with the cheap welfare cop outs.

One.

You are kind of talking past me... I'm not denying the effects of the legacy of racism.

All I'm saying is handouts from the very system disenfranchising and marginalizing black people is not the way towards black prosperity.

What exactly do you propose for a path to black economic self-sustenance and prosperity? And do you feel any part of our condition today is the result of choices we've made?

 

[Broke Wave]

lol really

Keep in mind this isn't separate by race and blacks usually do worst than the average, so it's safe the say blacks aren't much richer than they we're then, if we're lucky we're breaking even.

Then include the fact of higher violent crime than the whole 1900-1960 period, and higher children born out of wedlock and in single family homes, when it's is a fact that children in these conditions underachieved when compared to their peers not In these conditions.

But yea, blacks are doing better now

Hey man Id like to regretfully inform you of two things

1. Your graph confirms what I am saying

2 it does not go back to the time Sowell was talking about

Thanks for playing though

 

[ignorethis]

Sometimes I wonder do some of ya'll nikkas really live around poor black people enough to even form a real idea of problems our underclass face. Family/individual dysfunction and poor spending/money management habits doom most black kids in the hood before any encounter with racism.

You can argue that racism help create those negative behavior, but it still boils down to personal choice and seeing the consequences.

This is coming from a dude who has friends and nikkas I grew up with sitting in Harris County and TDC behind murders and robberies; their family structure and dysfunction had way more to do with their current predicaments than any white person that's for sure.

 

[ignorethis]

Hey man Id like to regretfully inform you of two things

1. Your graph confirms what I am saying

2 it does not go back to the time Sowell was talking about

Thanks for playing though

It didn't but thank for making it known you don't understand statistics.

 

[Broke Wave]

It didn't but thank for making it known you don't understand statistics.

You really do not understand statistics because this graph is not race specific

Meaning there are black families in the upper quintiles. Meaning my statement of black families being richer than they ever were is correct even if marginally. That is called having evidence to support a statement. I dont even agree with the premise of what I said I just find it funny that this is the first graph you post in a thread about economics and you cant even make the logical conclusions from it.

 

[William F. Russell]

I was talking about social services being neglected when planning an economy

Oh, my fault.

You may have a point about that.

 

[Broke Wave]

Conservatives never use the scientific method when drawing conclusions

They always fall into this correlation causation trap and believe whatever the hell they want.

Im sure @Napoleon would love for me to bring up the correlation between the decline in black church attendance and an increase in black PHDs

 

[Opus]

I work with a lot of people on welfare. A common misconception is people on welfare don't work. This is a lie. Many have jobs but the jobs do not provide livable wages without some subsidy.

Another misconception is it is mostly able bodied people. Many are elderly or handicapped. Sowell references the 1920s to rebut the legacy of slavery and Jim crow argument but ignores Jim crow went on until the 60's and states didn't get around to correcting racist infrastructures until the 80 ' s and even still deal with it today. Maryland for example is under court order to rectify issues caused be dejure segregation in their collegiate public education system. This order was issued 2010ish. That being the case many elderly people on welfare faced direct hardships to place them there. It isn't a matter of its been one hundred years. It's more a matter of lived experience and consequences of state sponsored policy. Tahnesi Coates really crushed this topic in his case for reperations.

Sowell is a uncle ruckus level c00n. Not for his conservative beliefs, but for his disingenuous reasoning which back them. He is not this stupid and knows exactly what buttons he is pushing. He is not being honest.

 

[ignorethis]

You really do not understand statistics because this graph is not race specific

Meaning there are black families in the upper quintiles. Meaning my statement of black families being richer than they ever were is correct even if marginally. That is called having evidence to support a statement. I dont even agree with the premise of what I said I just find it funny that this is the first graph you post in a thread about economics and you cant even make the logical conclusions from it.

Yea there are black families in the upper quintiles, but where do you think most black families are ?

And like I said that is the national average, blacks usually trail/underperform vs. the national average. If you took that chart as proof that blacks are wealthier than 50 years ago, you're either very very optimistic or intentionally being dense, because it's way more probably that it proves the opposite.

 

[Groanman]

 

[ignorethis]

I work with a lot of people on welfare. A common misconception is people on welfare don't work. This is a lie. Many have jobs but the jobs do not provide livable wages without some subsidy.

Another misconception is it is mostly able bodied people. Many are elderly or handicapped. Sowell references the 1920s to rebut the legacy of slavery and Jim crow argument but ignores Jim crow went on until the 60's and states didn't get around to correcting racist infrastructures until the 80 ' s and even still deal with it today. Maryland for example is under court order to rectify issues caused be dejure segregation in their collegiate public education system. This order was issued 2010ish. That being the case many elderly people on welfare faced direct hardships to place them there. It isn't a matter of its been one hundred years. It's more a matter of lived experience and consequences of state sponsored policy. Tahnesi Coates really crushed this topic in his case for reperations.

Sowell is a uncle ruckus level c00n. Not for his conservative beliefs, but for his disingenuous reasoning which back them. He is not this stupid and knows exactly what buttons he is pushing. He is not being honest.

He didn't say anything about people not working though or being lazy, he talked about welfare effects on the black family.
Everybody going against him in this thread are putting words in his mouths and knocking down straw man arguments.