The Rich Have Gained $5.6 Trillion in the 'Recovery'; The rest lost $660 Billion

rantanamo

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What are we even focusing on too big to fail for? That's not the only reason why we have such exploding income inequality. With the trend of liberalization of trade, crushing labor rights, a rigged tax code, the maximizing of productivity as cheaply as possible, politicians bought by corporate lobbyists, and Senate rules that make no sense, etc it's looking more and more like there's no real answer to this. Capitalism is fundamentally flawed. :yeshrug:

I think these points are correct, though I don't think system is the problem. Every system will be flawed whether humans or robots run it. You will always have the human element as the labor. Even if you had a robot running a perfectly distributed socialist system, you run into the human run problem of passivity. What motivates someone to study beyond a certain level? In such system, traditionally money has been replaced with prestige or position. This is fundamentally not socialist. If you had a perfectly capitalist system, you run into the problems listed by VictorVonDoom. Liberalizing trade may seem capitalist, but trade terms are never balanced because of the difference in partner economies. It will be very efficient for the one that owns the capital but likely bad for the labor in both partners. Labor rights are another problem that can't be solved by a computer.

I think you'd have to go a little further to solve these problems. It probably sounds funny, but I think its labor that has to be eliminated. Labor is the exploited element and will always be because human greed will always be there. This is not to blame labor. This is to blame the systems that create and exploit them. As strange as it sounds, I think this is an inevitable reality that we are approaching much more rapidly than 98% of people think right now. When i say eliminate labor, I mean that work in a sense is becoming automated. You're even seeing a return of manufacturing to the U.S., but a lot of it is automated, as this is now becoming cheaper than cheap labor. You used to see a lot of law discovery outsourced to India. Now you're seeing a lot of that become automated. Driving is becoming automated. Cadillac is talking about debuting a system that can automatically drive on highways for you. You already have dynamic cruise control and self parking on production cars. Google, GM, Ford, BMW and Mercedes have fully autonomous vehicles testing on roads right now. This will eliminate driving jobs. 3-D printers will replace a lot of deliver and manufacturing systems as well. That's not even getting into Engineering A.I. or future medical systems. Soldiers and pilots will be replaced. What type of jobs will be left? Programming? Robotics engineering? Eventually that will be replaced by giving a rudementary plan, that the AI does the engineering for. Sounds like The Matrix, but where do you think robotics is going? Very few corps owning all of the production capital.

Not to sound cuckoo, but whether you think labor is eliminated as a whole or not, you have to respect the trasition that is rapidly approaching. A lot of jobs will be replaced, and we will see if our systems can tolerate the current systems of distribution. If they can't adapt, there will be a lot of people needed complete re-education and training. A ton of people competing for very scarce jobs. I bet we end up with an incredible famine as cheap labor jobs are completely elimated first. Then just as with outsourcing, the job replacement will slowly move up the ladder. Can a government be strong enough to maintain control in this situation and create a wealth distribution system, or will the corps just run and politic their way out of things the way they do now? Will this force a Chinese type system? I dunno, but I think we are certainly headed to a near future where the systems we know will be ineffective.
 

KillSpray

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Every economic system is flawed when you have corrupt, greedy, immoral humans operating them. Fiat currency makes sense. The Fed makes sense. Capitalism makes sense. If you had a computer operating them. You put a human behind the controls, its only a matter of time.

"FOR A PLATE OF FOOD 'IM A SELL MANKIND FA"

So imagine what he will do with the world's largest military, or the power to make laws, or the controls of the printing press of the dollar.

The only way we can have a system that works is by engineering it to be isolated from human corruption. You really look at it, that's where all the problems come from. The "rationalized" exceptions, greed, etc etc... everyone wants rules but only to have to follow them when it works in their favor. Its madness.

You look at humans vs the laws of nature for example. We have made planes and nuclear weapons. But at the end of the day you can't cheat gravity. You can't cheat force = MA. So we all make decisions based around that. We need an economic and political system that is that absolute. You have a trillion dollars in assets leveraged 30x? When your shyt inevitably crashes you should be held personally responsible for whatever comes of it. You have a business that can't be competitive/profitable w/o subsidies? Look into a new business. Etc. Govt's job is to facilitate and protect people's rights. Its gone way out of its scope.

:salute:

Excellent post. People are trying to blame capitalism or the govt for this mess, and totally ignoring the role that simple human emotions plays in all of this. At the end of the day there are human temperaments and egos coupled with high intellect that are exerting themselves on the world, and it will always be this way. We need a system that properly balances society, and that is basically asking too much of any system. There is no utopia friends. The world is flawed and imbalances exist.
 

KillSpray

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Having access is different than having the motivation and means to get it. Most Americans are blind to the opportunities they have. Besides that, some of those things you mentioned are clearly denied to some. There simply isn't motivation in this system to distribute wealth or to NOt put in place barriers to the development of the lower classes.

In my neighborhood... at least 4 or 5 CAC come by or drive by asking me if I'm selling my house - per month. I moved from the subs back into the core City because I see the plans of the elite (capitalist loving) CAC. The eastern subs were made madddddd affordable 10 or so years ago until now- blacks and poor whites saw that as an opportunity to get better- better education, better environment, better everything. I moved back into the core city because I know the mind of a CAC. So now the low income people who were simply too poor to follow the original ignorant bait- have received letters giving them time limits to move out. This sh1t is happening in 2013. Now fortune 100 companies (capitalism) is moving to the core city. Now cac artist and events are plaging my city and when i go downtown Its just sooo many cac's you wouldn't believe it. Now on some Fridays I can't even go down the main streets because CAC events...... like thousands of people riding bicycles in the streets (i don't even know what that sh1t is about). Now once abandoned buildings are 1500 per month lofts n sh1t. Eventually, all of the low class who wanted to make changes for a better life , will still be low class in a different area. Meanwhile the core city because of a booming economic force - will have people saying Detroit made a come back when in reality 'capitalism at it's best' has systematically increase the wealth gap to a limit that is even more gross.

So maybe capitalism isn't the problem... but it's the best means of perpetuating the fukkry that occurs. Maybe more socialist policies aren't the answer... but some of those principles are the only means to correcting some of the issues-- if people are even interested in correcting anything.


I can't really co-sign this common imagery of the poor always being the well intentioned but ill equipped and the non-poor being the well equipped and ill intentioned. Just a very basic over simplification of society and an us vs. them thing.
 

DEAD7

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Thanks Obama

:comeon:
my question is this... is capitalism the problem? or is it the people running the system of capitalism who are the problem?

Socialism and corporatism are the problem?:shaq2:

Capitalism is the problem because at it's nature there has to be these wealth gaps and competition that is supposed to encourage economic growth... but really feeds into the greed of the already wealthy.

either way, that question is irrelevant. A better question is what are the people of a nation to do to correct this? What are the options for the other 98% of the population? Or do we just have to accept it? We already know that there is no incentive for politicians or the rich to distribute wealth or to close the wealth gap.

Zero sum thinking is the bane of economics. :snoop:

No other system has produced such prosperity and wealth, yet we still question capitalism... i really dont get it. :dwillhuh:

Capitalism has created a society where the "poor' have cars and smart phones, and here we are calling it unfair that we dont have private jets too. :skip:

I give up.
 

Blackking

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I can't really co-sign this common imagery of the poor always being the well intentioned but ill equipped and the non-poor being the well equipped and ill intentioned. Just a very basic over simplification of society and an us vs. them thing.

Not saying the wealthy are the only ones with ill intentions. Not even blaming one group.. I clearly stated it was human nature to do certain things. I was referring to economic systems.
 

Blackking

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Zero sum thinking is the bane of economics.

No other system has produced such prosperity and wealth, yet we still question capitalism... i really dont get it.

Capitalism has created a society where the "poor' have cars and smart phones, and here we are calling it unfair that we dont have private jets too.

I don't agree with the concentration and manipulation of capital and wealth by a small fraction of society. Especially in a society where the funds control elections.

Also, you have a very glamorized view of the poor in our nation. What is wealth... Wealth is relative to what's around at the time period to compare it to. Based on that, there have been other wealthy nations... NTM China is about to be wealthy than the US with a different form of government and economic system. Not saying that we should copy them, I'm just saying... you are glamorizing our brand of capitalism.

Either way, the argument was about the Wealth gap... I don't care if the poor really did have smart phones.. the wealth Gap is gross and very wrong.
 

DEAD7

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I don't agree with the concentration and manipulation of capital and wealth by a small fraction of society. Especially in a society where the funds control elections.

This isnt the fault of capitalism... you're aiming at the wrong target.
Also, you have a very glamorized view of the poor in our nation. What is wealth... Wealth is relative to what's around at the time period to compare it to. Based on that, there have been other wealthy nations... NTM China is about to be wealthy than the US with a different form of government and economic system. Not saying that we should copy them, I'm just saying... you are glamorizing our brand of capitalism.

Glamorizing? You must not have a clear picture of the world pre-capitalism.

And nations who have seen comparable market growth, have all adopted the market economy. China in particular is in many ways more capitalist than we are.



Either way, the argument was about the Wealth gap... I don't care if the poor really did have smart phones.. the wealth Gap is gross and very wrong.

You are making a judgement based on emotion. You don't like it, there for it must go...:aicmon:
What actual data do you have to support disdain for the gap?

Capitalism isnt the root of the gap, its socialism/democracy that is dragging us down.
 

acri1

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I don't think anybody is arguing that everybody should make the same amount of money - but is THIS really necessary?

Actual_estimated_ideal_wealth_distribution.gif



It's getting to the point where it's actually hurting the economy...you can't expect demand to hit a healthy level if all the money and wealth is concentrated at the top.


6a00d8341c4eab53ef0120a5b2a5b9970c-400wi



What we got going on right now sure does look similar to what happened before the Great Depression, doesn't it... :usure:
 

DEAD7

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I don't think anybody is arguing that everybody should make the same amount of money - but is THIS really necessary?

Actual_estimated_ideal_wealth_distribution.gif



It's getting to the point where it's actually hurting the economy...you can't expect demand to hit a healthy level if all the money and wealth is concentrated at the top.


6a00d8341c4eab53ef0120a5b2a5b9970c-400wi



What we got going on right now sure does look similar to what happened before the Great Depression, doesn't it... :usure:

A closer examination of this phenomenon reveals it is not the result of capitalism, but government interference in the market.

I'll agree its a problem, but we must be clear on where the problem stems from.
 

Majestic Pape

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We're going to end up like India with billion dollar homes overlooking slums.

WE not gonna end up with shyt...

Once I get my money right and find me an international chick that I really want to be with, I'm gonna have to jump off of this sinking ship. :youngsabo:
 
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