The Rich Have Gained $5.6 Trillion in the 'Recovery'; The rest lost $660 Billion

[OsO]

Every economic system is flawed when you have corrupt, greedy, immoral humans operating them. Fiat currency makes sense. The Fed makes sense. Capitalism makes sense. If you had a computer operating them. You put a human behind the controls, its only a matter of time.

 

[Ohene]

it takes money to make money, who cares

 

[OsO]

Capitalism is the problem because at it's nature there has to be these wealth gaps and competition that is supposed to encourage economic growth... but really feeds into the greed of the already wealthy.

either way, that question is irrelevant. A better question is what are the people of a nation to do to correct this? What are the options for the other 98% of the population? Or do we just have to accept it? We already know that there is no incentive for politicians or the rich to distribute wealth or to close the wealth gap.

i think it's a very important question because one cant find a good solution without having a clear idea of the problem.

if you think the system is the problem then you'll try to fix the system, not realizing no matter what system you put into place it is doomed for failure because of the greedy elitist powers running it.

but if you know the problem is the people running the system, then you will focus your strategies on nullifying the power of the greedy elitist powers running the system.

to speak to your second point on potential solutions, i think we need to start creating and participating in alternative economic networks in addition to the economic networks in the matrix, but not in place of the economic networks in the matrix.

i dont think we completely abandon this system, but i think we start to create and participate in new socioeconomic systems based on the principles of entrepreneurship and community economics.

also keep in mind this is just one prong in a several prong approach.

 

[Blackking]

i think it's a very important question because one cant find a good solution without having a clear idea of the problem.

if you think the system is the problem then you'll try to fix the system, not realizing no matter what system you put into place it is doomed for failure because of the greedy elitist powers running it.

but if you know the problem is the people running the system, then you will focus your strategies on nullifying the power of the greedy elitist powers running the system.

to speak to your second point on potential solutions, i think we need to start creating and participating in alternative economic networks in addition to the economic networks in the matrix, but not in place of the economic networks in the matrix.

i dont think we completely abandon this system, but i think we start to create and participate in new socioeconomic systems based on the principles of entrepreneurship and community economics.

also keep in mind this is just one prong in a several prong approach.

I agree. however, I think that we can see that both the system and the people running it are flawed. Also we can see that they system can make a person flawed in that way if they become a part of it's leadership.

We can't abandon the system because it keeps at least some sort of order. Besides, we are in a position that we can't comfortably survive without the benefits of the system. - basically like a slave who realizes he's enslaved and can't do much about it.

Possible solutions are to :
elect people who will put in place more socialist policies.
Or revolutionary takeover - including the attack on wealthy elitist (which is probably not realistic).
Or like you said a focus on community economics ( which is also not realistic because the architects of the matrix are very proficient at keeping people dumb and numb) .

in order for the lower classed to close the gap, that would first take the lower classes being united, which we are not. IF I pull up in a 2013 lex in a wealthy white neighborhood they are uncomfortable. If I do it in a poor white neighborhood, they are upset. everyone hates Musllims. Everyone is prejudiced towards blacks. Blacks trust no one (unless they open up a store in a black community- then the trust is blind). blacks are crab in a barrel x a million. half the white people don't realize there's an issue at all. immigrants are just happy to be here- 1st generation. Most Christians (which is most people) are just trying to make it and get to heaven or wherever. Few people truly give a sh1t about how their children will be caught in the matrix as adults. The other people are memorized by television and reality shows.

so imo, it will either take a few people willing to die for the sh1t or we will just have to go with the flow until the Wealth Gap is to the point that poverty is the norm and people have nothing to lose.

 

[No1]

Every economic system is flawed when you have corrupt, greedy, immoral humans operating them. Fiat currency makes sense. The Fed makes sense. Capitalism makes sense. If you had a computer operating them. You put a human behind the controls, its only a matter of time.

"FOR A PLATE OF FOOD 'IM A SELL MANKIND FA"

So imagine what he will do with the world's largest military, or the power to make laws, or the controls of the printing press of the dollar.

The only way we can have a system that works is by engineering it to be isolated from human corruption. You really look at it, that's where all the problems come from. The "rationalized" exceptions, greed, etc etc... everyone wants rules but only to have to follow them when it works in their favor. Its madness.

You look at humans vs the laws of nature for example. We have made planes and nuclear weapons. But at the end of the day you can't cheat gravity. You can't cheat force = MA. So we all make decisions based around that. We need an economic and political system that is that absolute. You have a trillion dollars in assets leveraged 30x? When your shyt inevitably crashes you should be held personally responsible for whatever comes of it. You have a business that can't be competitive/profitable w/o subsidies? Look into a new business. Etc. Govt's job is to facilitate and protect people's rights. Its gone way out of its scope.

:nas: Indeed fam.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

I agree. however, I think that we can see that both the system and the people running it are flawed. Also we can see that they system can make a person flawed in that way if they become a part of it's leadership.

We can't abandon the system because it keeps at least some sort of order. Besides, we are in a position that we can't comfortably survive without the benefits of the system. - basically like a slave who realizes he's enslaved and can't do much about it.

Possible solutions are to :
elect people who will put in place more socialist policies.
Or revolutionary takeover - including the attack on wealthy elitist (which is probably not realistic).
Or like you said a focus on community economics ( which is also not realistic because the architects of the matrix are very proficient at keeping people dumb and numb) .

in order for the lower classed to close the gap, that would first take the lower classes being united, which we are not. IF I pull up in a 2013 lex in a wealthy white neighborhood they are uncomfortable. If I do it in a poor white neighborhood, they are upset. everyone hates Musllims. Everyone is prejudiced towards blacks. Blacks trust no one (unless they open up a store in a black community- then the trust is blind). blacks are crab in a barrel x a million. half the white people don't realize there's an issue at all. immigrants are just happy to be here- 1st generation. Most Christians (which is most people) are just trying to make it and get to heaven or wherever. Few people truly give a sh1t about how their children will be caught in the matrix as adults. The other people are memorized by television and reality shows.

so imo, it will either take a few people willing to die for the sh1t or we will just have to go with the flow until the Wealth Gap is to the point that poverty is the norm and people have nothing to lose.

More socialism is not the answer. The rich getting richer would not be an issue if the poor + middle class had access to affordable + quality food, healthcare, housing and education from kindergarten through a master's degree. Blunting capitalism is not the answer because on a real day to day basis capitalism is not the problem for the average American.

 

[Blackking]

More socialism is not the answer. The rich getting richer would not be an issue if the poor + middle class had access to affordable + quality food, healthcare, housing and education from kindergarten through a master's degree. Blunting capitalism is not the answer because on a real day to day basis capitalism is not the problem for the average American.

Having access is different than having the motivation and means to get it. Most Americans are blind to the opportunities they have. Besides that, some of those things you mentioned are clearly denied to some. There simply isn't motivation in this system to distribute wealth or to NOt put in place barriers to the development of the lower classes.

In my neighborhood... at least 4 or 5 CAC come by or drive by asking me if I'm selling my house - per month. I moved from the subs back into the core City because I see the plans of the elite (capitalist loving) CAC. The eastern subs were made madddddd affordable 10 or so years ago until now- blacks and poor whites saw that as an opportunity to get better- better education, better environment, better everything. I moved back into the core city because I know the mind of a CAC. So now the low income people who were simply too poor to follow the original ignorant bait- have received letters giving them time limits to move out. This sh1t is happening in 2013. Now fortune 100 companies (capitalism) is moving to the core city. Now cac artist and events are plaging my city and when i go downtown Its just sooo many cac's you wouldn't believe it. Now on some Fridays I can't even go down the main streets because CAC events...... like thousands of people riding bicycles in the streets (i don't even know what that sh1t is about). Now once abandoned buildings are 1500 per month lofts n sh1t. Eventually, all of the low class who wanted to make changes for a better life , will still be low class in a different area. Meanwhile the core city because of a booming economic force - will have people saying Detroit made a come back when in reality 'capitalism at it's best' has systematically increase the wealth gap to a limit that is even more gross.

So maybe capitalism isn't the problem... but it's the best means of perpetuating the fukkry that occurs. Maybe more socialist policies aren't the answer... but some of those principles are the only means to correcting some of the issues-- if people are even interested in correcting anything.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

Having access is different than having the motivation and means to get it. Most Americans are blind to the opportunities they have. Besides that, some of those things you mentioned are clearly denied to some. There simply isn't motivation in this system to distribute wealth or to NOt put in place barriers to the development of the lower classes.

In my neighborhood... at least 4 or 5 CAC come by or drive by asking me if I'm selling my house - per month. I moved from the subs back into the core City because I see the plans of the elite (capitalist loving) CAC. The eastern subs were made madddddd affordable 10 or so years ago until now- blacks and poor whites saw that as an opportunity to get better- better education, better environment, better everything. I moved back into the core city because I know the mind of a CAC. So now the low income people who were simply too poor to follow the original ignorant bait- have received letters giving them time limits to move out. This sh1t is happening in 2013. Now fortune 100 companies (capitalism) is moving to the core city. Now cac artist and events are plaging my city and when i go downtown Its just sooo many cac's you wouldn't believe it. Now on some Fridays I can't even go down the main streets because CAC events...... like thousands of people riding bicycles in the streets (i don't even know what that sh1t is about). Now once abandoned buildings are 1500 per month lofts n sh1t. Eventually, all of the low class who wanted to make changes for a better life , will still be low class in a different area. Meanwhile the core city because of a booming economic force - will have people saying Detroit made a come back when in reality 'capitalism at it's best' has systematically increase the wealth gap to a limit that is even more gross.

So maybe capitalism isn't the problem... but it's the best means of perpetuating the fukkry that occurs. Maybe more socialist policies aren't the answer... but some of those principles are the only means to correcting some of the issues-- if people are even interested in correcting anything.

Socialism can and will open up a can of worms you are not considering. This thinking is akin to @theworldismine13 claiming that blacks joining forces with the GOP is a smart move, since our partnership with the Democrats has not worked out. "The devil you know".

You are the big hole in your story, and why I can't feel 100% sympathy for the victims of gentrification. You look at developments like Co-op city, you look at the prices of real estate in depressed areas, w/the right focus it was def possible for us to buy some of these neighborhoods outright. But somewhere along the way there was an element of choice, and we did not capitalize on the opportunity. We can go into how unfair the system is but at the end of the day there are people coming here with less than us and turning that opportunity into foundations of wealth for their families.

Also you look at a place like NYC, "CACs" moving to places like Mott Haven and East New York are not moving there by choice either. Everyone who isn't at the top is being displaced.

Like I always say to me it makes more sense to focus on what we can control instead of scapegoating and pointing fingers. Even if you are right it doesnt make sense to get angry or up in arms about it... we have to get focused and play the hands we are dealt

 

[Blackking]

Socialism can and will open up a can of worms you are not considering. This thinking is akin to @theworldismine13 claiming that blacks joining forces with the GOP is a smart move, since our partnership with the Democrats has not worked out. "The devil you know".

You are the big hole in your story, and why I can't feel 100% sympathy for the victims of gentrification. You look at developments like Co-op city, you look at the prices of real estate in depressed areas, w/the right focus it was def possible for us to buy some of these neighborhoods outright. But somewhere along the way there was an element of choice, and we did not capitalize on the opportunity. We can go into how unfair the system is but at the end of the day there are people coming here with less than us and turning that opportunity into foundations of wealth for their families.

Also you look at a place like NYC, "CACs" moving to places like Mott Haven and East New York are not moving there by choice either. Everyone who isn't at the top is being displaced.

Like I always say to me it makes more sense to focus on what we can control instead of scapegoating and pointing fingers. Even if you are right it doesnt make sense to get angry or up in arms about it... we have to get focused and play the hands we are dealt

well, it's not really just pointing fingers.... I know that we should play the cards we are dealt.... but if you never speak up against things like gentrification then you will keep getting the cards and having to play the same sh1tty hand. I find that it's significant that something like gentrification even exist .... think about the motivations behind gentrification and the reasons why it's so easily executed.

Also, I find the ideas behind a variety of social ownership that still allows for individuals to proper, but stunts monopolies and social-economic takeovers of cities by small groups of individuals -- more tolerable than the free for all capitalism that we have in which history and birth, have more to do with the economic standing of most people, than their natural abilities.

The 'average' person in a 3rd world nation isn't just coming here and flipping millions . The people that come, and have the resources to come, are business minded and come with goals in mind.... with business immigrant tax credits and a different family mentality as tools. That's not a fair comparison to make to someone who started developing a certain mentality when they were 3 years old and formed it over the next 14 years within the constraints of US urban environments. -- The majority of those people aren't going to be equipped to battle gentrification, as history hasn't afforded them mentalities and community structures that an immigrant from South Korea or Peru might have.

and I'm not the big hole.. I learned about cac from going to cac hS and big ten universities.. and I naturally pay attention to the behaviors of people in general. I know n1ggas that are smarter than me that are poorer than me. I know people who work harder than me who make less money. I simply slipped through the cracks.. Yes there will always be people we can't feel sorry for .. but when there is a crises amongst entire communities - there are forces at play other than individual motivation.

Also, the Wealth Gap is horrible news for all Americans.. and capitalism naturally encourages that. I mean we are human... combine capitalism with human nature and this is what you get every single time. We try to offset this inevitable cause with welfare, and dependency programs... but for the most part those things are taken advantage of and used to further contribute to the wealth gaps and distortion in the markets, and other fukkery. Its a cycle that we can't change... unless we change our system or change the fact that we are flawed humans. Only one of those things are possible to do.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Every economic system is flawed when you have corrupt, greedy, immoral humans operating them. Fiat currency makes sense. The Fed makes sense. Capitalism makes sense. If you had a computer operating them. You put a human behind the controls, its only a matter of time.

"FOR A PLATE OF FOOD 'IM A SELL MANKIND FA"

So imagine what he will do with the world's largest military, or the power to make laws, or the controls of the printing press of the dollar.

The only way we can have a system that works is by engineering it to be isolated from human corruption. You really look at it, that's where all the problems come from. The "rationalized" exceptions, greed, etc etc... everyone wants rules but only to have to follow them when it works in their favor. Its madness.

You look at humans vs the laws of nature for example. We have made planes and nuclear weapons. But at the end of the day you can't cheat gravity. You can't cheat force = MA. So we all make decisions based around that. We need an economic and political system that is that absolute. You have a trillion dollars in assets leveraged 30x? When your shyt inevitably crashes you should be held personally responsible for whatever comes of it. You have a business that can't be competitive/profitable w/o subsidies? Look into a new business. Etc. Govt's job is to facilitate and protect people's rights. Its gone way out of its scope.

I feel you...I really do. I'm just leaving it open to the possibility that we're missing something. I'm for not completely sold that laissez-faire capitalism is the best economic system. Maybe we shouldn't be so dismissive of the ideas of someone like @TrueEpic08. If this was the days of feudalism before the ideas behind Wealth of Nations was conceived, free market capitalism would've been considered a radical unrealistic idea. Recently even Krugman rediscovered his inner Marx when talking about capital vs. labor. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/krugman-robots-and-robber-barons.html?hp&_r=0

I think capitalism worked well for the most part in this nation's history. But in the last 30 years or so, as we embraced these hard neoliberal policies, it's led to exploding income inequality, gains in productivity while compensation and benefits for workers decline, loss of upward mobility, and a growing underclass locked into stasis of deprived conditions.

It's easy to look at that and just blame it on Reagan and the Republicans and corporate lobbyists buying politicians, etc. But do we ever consider that they're right in a certain sense consistent with capitalism in a globalized economy? There is credence to the claim that since we've moved to a globalized interconnected economy with decentralization, removal of tariffs, ease of labor and capital low, lower taxes on individuals and businesses, etc. that we can't invest in a robust middle class, and keep strong labor protections like we did in the 30's-70's because we wouldn't be as competitive. At some point, it's not just neoliberalism. It's the logical path of capitalism in today's world.

Using the example of banks using 30:1 leveraging then not being held accountable when they crash...well's that what they did. And nothing happened. Nobody went to jail. They all got away with fraud. The structural maladies that led to that situation are still in place for the most part. We elected the more left-wing of the two parties to the presidency and both houses of Congress in the wake of this and we got 93% of the gains in wealth since the bottom of the recession going to the top 1% and no real structural changes to the banking system. And a lot of that is due to the broken political system, but that's only an intermediate cause because the political system has been broken by the economic system.

We've been talking about what fixes are needed on this site and its predecessor for like half a decade and they are easy to envision, but they cannot and will not get implemented apparently because of the stumbling blocks that are instrinsic to the system we have in place.

Having exploding income inequality and a stagnant middle class and a growing underclass locked into worsening conditions is unsustainable and is just going to blow up into chaos at some point. I think we're pretty indifferent to a lot of suffering going on right now. All I'm saying is we should try to get out in front of this in some way now and it may require outside-the-box thinking. Incremental, piecemeal changes that don't upset the status quo isn't getting the job done. Pro-capitalism or not, now is a time for radical thinking.

 

[Mr. Somebody]

We're going to end up like India with billion dollar homes overlooking slums.

Not surprising. Rich people develop god complexes and im sure that scenario would fit that mentality perfectly.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

my question is this... is capitalism the problem? or is it the people running the system of capitalism who are the problem?

In a system predicated upon pure economic competition, they're always going to do any and all of what they can get away with doing.

 

[TLR Is Mental Poison]

@Blackking... you make some good points so I will really only touch on what I disagree with.

In my experience, the only people who win with gentrification are the super rich, and the owners of the properties. Someone moving into an overpriced apartment in a neighborhood full of people who resent their existence is not winning. And in NYC that person often was displaced from another neighborhood they were priced out of. So resenting the people you are seeing isn't really productive IMO.

Immigrants might not be coming here making millions, but then I never claimed they did. Immigrants coming here, starting businesses, getting their kids educated, buying property, helping family get over and settled etc is wayyyyy better than what is going on in the black community. And I dont want that to come off like a jab or nose thumbing- it is what it is. I think its important to acknowledge problems, as many immigrants do- but they still do what they have to do.

You are the hole because you are an example of someone making it out. Is it harder? Of course. But we still have to try. And there is a lot we can do but aren't that can be done to make it easier. That doesnt mean we aren't owed fair treatment, or that our mistakes justify systemic injustice... but at the end of the day it doesn't pay to dwell on what is beyond your control.

Regarding @VictorVonDoom and wealth in general in this country... people have to understand... during the hey day of American labor our prosperity was essentially subsidized by geopolitical conditions. Cheap energy, cheap healthcare, cheap cheap cheap housing (with the new invention of the 30 yr mortgage), high demand and low competition from a battered and rebuilding Europe, high internal demand from baby boomers and their veteran parents, zero competition from Asia, Central America, a second class of citizens under racist US law, less regulation (simply due to us just not knowing the effects of our actions), and simply less mouths to feed (country doubled in population from 1940 to like 2000). We will never see conditions like that again, even barring the changes in corporate culture and values. So going forward we really have to temper our goals and expectations towards outcomes that are more realistic and in line with the world we live in today.

Plus people are confusing the drivers of the wealth gap. Yes the rich are profiting, but they will always profit. That is what rich people do. But the rich profiting is separate from why the middle class is becoming poor. Most rich people are not profiting from healthcare, housing, or college loans... but the skyrocketing costs of those are exactly what is locking the avg American down. Ive asked before but what significance would CEO to regular worker pay have, if that regular worker could easily afford healthcare, home ownership and being able to both retire AND put their kids through college? Thats why I disagree that a piecemeal kind of approach isn't what needs to happen. A big assault on the rich or some kind of revolution wouldn't necessarily address our problems- we saw this with the rise and fall of OWS. We have to be goal oriented and shrewd in how we deal with these things- perhaps thinking out of the box in how to raise awareness and solve them, but not necessarily embrace full on chaos or (misdirected) anger.

I think the real roadblock isn't necessarily the rich- they understand that a country with more money to spend means more money for them, and all the gum in the system is no good. But I think the general apathy and cluelessness of America is a real problem. People just don't care, and in many cases are proud to not know what's going on. Its that cultural sea change that will be the biggest catalyst of progress IMO.

 

[NVME]

i understand what you're saying.

i just think in this case the data point is the more important piece. if the data is correct and the distribution of wealth as a result of recovery policies has been that unequal, then it doesnt matter if this guy is talking about pink dragons in the sky imo.

the data is the important part. and the data can be correct or incorrect separate from the opinion of an individual.

in my mind it almost doesnt matter what the dudes opinion is cause i already know shh is fukked up. i just want to know if his numbers are accurate.

but thats just me.

What you're missing is that lumping Fannie/Freddie in with Wall Street and acting like that is the same situation is incorrect. That skews the data and makes me question the whole article. Especially because of the way it's done by the author.

 

[Dusty Bake Activate]

Regarding @VictorVonDoom and wealth in general in this country... people have to understand... during the hey day of American labor our prosperity was essentially subsidized by geopolitical conditions. Cheap energy, cheap healthcare, cheap cheap cheap housing (with the new invention of the 30 yr mortgage), high demand and low competition from a battered and rebuilding Europe, high internal demand from baby boomers and their veteran parents, zero competition from Asia, Central America, a second class of citizens under racist US law, less regulation (simply due to us just not knowing the effects of our actions), and simply less mouths to feed (country doubled in population from 1940 to like 2000). We will never see conditions like that again, even barring the changes in corporate culture and values. So going forward we really have to temper our goals and expectations towards outcomes that are more realistic and in line with the world we live in today.

I know. But by "tempering our goals and expectations," are we supposed to just accept things getting worse and worse for working people?

Plus people are confusing the drivers of the wealth gap. Yes the rich are profiting, but they will always profit. That is what rich people do. But the rich profiting is separate from why the middle class is becoming poor. Most rich people are not profiting from healthcare, housing, or college loans... but the skyrocketing costs of those are exactly what is locking the avg American down. Ive asked before but what significance would CEO to regular worker pay have, if that regular worker could easily afford healthcare, home ownership and being able to both retire AND put their kids through college? Thats why I disagree that a piecemeal kind of approach isn't what needs to happen. A big assault on the rich or some kind of revolution wouldn't necessarily address our problems- we saw this with the rise and fall of OWS. We have to be goal oriented and shrewd in how we deal with these things- perhaps thinking out of the box in how to raise awareness and solve them, but not necessarily embrace full on chaos or (misdirected) anger.

This reads like it came from a Goldman Sachs publicist. I don't know how you can say the rich profiting is separate from why the middle class is becoming poor with a straight face. Nobody's saying rich people profiting in itself is the problem. That's the same strawman shyt you hear from the Koch Brothers and Jamie Dimon.

Rich people have been profiting. The problem is not rich people merely profiting, but rich people having an increased % of the nation's wealth in their hand which of course most they don't spend to create any multiplier effect, and gaming the system and buying politicians and literally writing legislation that allows them to profit at the expense of working people, and you see that across the board from the banks, to insurance companies, to the food industry, the drug industry, chemical industry, and energy industry.

You even cited the rising costs of healthcare. Healthcare costs aren't rising from a combination of an aging, sick population and a clunky, inefficient for-profit healthcare system that rich lobbyists are not actively working to maintain instead of allowing us to have sane reasonable healthcare system like the rest of the world? That's a perfect example of rich and powerful interests pushing working people more into poverty.

I think the real roadblock isn't necessarily the rich- they understand that a country with more money to spend means more money for them, and all the gum in the system is no good. But I think the general apathy and cluelessness of America is a real problem. People just don't care, and in many cases are proud to not know what's going on. Its that cultural sea change that will be the biggest catalyst of progress IMO.

The roadblock isn't the rich in the simplistic sense that anybody who is rich=bad, but wealthy interests that have made Capital Hill a wholly-owned subsidiary of them is indeed the roadblock.

Also, consumer spending dipped by 8% per family from 2007-2010. That didn't prevent corporations from profiting more than they did in the last 80 years of whatever. With how inexpensive labor costs are and how efficient production is nowadays, it doesn't even matter as much if domestic consumer spending takes a permanent dip.